WvW costs too much gold, you're forced into doing pve or using the cash shop to pay for it. You cant earn the gold to cover repairs and seige equipment through WvW alone.
Also its inadvisable to enter WvW until you have your elite slot, yeah you're not technically forced but you are cannon fodder unless you level in pve to 30 or so first.
I don't see why you can't. There is actual pve in wvw that can nab you a ton of gold. I wasn't counting that as regular pve because its part of wvw.
I also don't think thats right. WvW is very crowded, you just have to make sure you play it safe until higher levels. Besides you level up pretty fast in WvW. I've actually got one character were I do mostly wvw on and I've been there at level 10, didn't die much either.
If you believe the Forums then Yes. However, I used to be able to get into Lion's Arch on my Server without being transferred to an overflow. Now every time I go there I'm in an overflow
I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other as my Server may not be an accurate representation.
As others have said, people who are happy with the game, don't usually post unless there is a technical problem, etc. People who don't like the game or just dislike it (I will not use the word hate any more) will post because they feel they need to be heard. That is fine but, don't take those posts as the majority of players or anything else. They are the people who want to complain.
Complain away, but pleae be educated about the complaints.
This is THE major problem with most if not all themepark games, and even many "sandboxes" (and yes I use the quotes specifically).
Due to the RPG nature of the MMORPG, outleveling/out-skilling/out-usefullness of content is a given.
Only in a true MMO that makes the RPG part actually mean "Role Playing Game" rather than "stat pRogression Pseuo-Game" will you see a game in which all areas of the game are relevant to all players.
The down-leveling of toons in GW2 would be wonderful.. if there were anything to do in lower level zones/areas after you 100% them.
Don't need lower level crafting mats - don't need lower level mob resources (drops) - don't need lower level DE chains - etc. etc.
In that Case, BS, there ARE no true MMORPG's out there any more besides EVE (based on what you posted). That is fine by me. I played EVE for a bit and found it boring and unforgiving (I mean to noob players). A little give should be there to help the players get through at the beginning.
EvE does a lot right of what SHOULD make a MMORPG - but the game is not without it's fair share of problems (of which I could go on and on about them) which is why I think you see a lot of success and loyalty from EvE players and why so many are curious about EvE but in the end don't stick with it (like me.)
As it relates to GW2 though, they get a lot of things right in what makes a good themepark MMO but on a basic design level they also made some pretty glaring mistakes - mistakes I don't think they forsaw as I know I sure didn't until they were in my face.
I actually think GW1 was a better designed game for what it was trying to be.
This is THE major problem with most if not all themepark games, and even many "sandboxes" (and yes I use the quotes specifically).
Due to the RPG nature of the MMORPG, outleveling/out-skilling/out-usefullness of content is a given.
Only in a true MMO that makes the RPG part actually mean "Role Playing Game" rather than "stat pRogression Pseuo-Game" will you see a game in which all areas of the game are relevant to all players.
The down-leveling of toons in GW2 would be wonderful.. if there were anything to do in lower level zones/areas after you 100% them.
Don't need lower level crafting mats - don't need lower level mob resources (drops) - don't need lower level DE chains - etc. etc.
In that Case, BS, there ARE no true MMORPG's out there any more besides EVE (based on what you posted). That is fine by me. I played EVE for a bit and found it boring and unforgiving (I mean to noob players). A little give should be there to help the players get through at the beginning.
EvE does a lot right of what SHOULD make a MMORPG - but the game is not without it's fair share of problems (of which I could go on and on about them) which is why I think you see a lot of success and loyalty from EvE players and why so many are curious about EvE but in the end don't stick with it (like me.)
As it relates to GW2 though, they get a lot of things right in what makes a good themepark MMO but on a basic design level they also made some pretty glaring mistakes - mistakes I don't think they forsaw as I know I sure didn't until they were in my face.
I actually think GW1 was a better designed game for what it was trying to be.
THIS.
There is no doubt that ANET took a long look at what the major complaints were about themeparks and why games like WoW were losing Subs. But I also think that many players left WoW for reasons other than what they said. It's tough to explain, but players lost a "feeling" they got when they played WoW. And then to try to put that into words and explain why. So much was lost in that translation. So when ANET decided to design a game around it, they heard the words, but missed the "feeling".
I think they tried too hard to be too radically different all at once and as a result introduced to many new and untested mechanics. These mechanics had too many unforseen and undesireable dynamics. Mechanics such as allowing to post items to the TP from anywhere. In retrospect, it's probably not one of the better mechanics in terms of helping the game's economy....if it ever really had one.
I think the biggest area ANET "missed the boat" was trying to make the grind "fun" people who have been around MMOs since long before 2008 remember what grinding was. Yeah, we hated it, but it was (still is) a necessary evil. Too many games have been removing it. But instead, they need to embrace it. It is necessary afterall. And instead, make it more meaningful. Anyway. To try to make repetition fun in a video game? Not gonna happen. You can make the activities more fun than they were previously, but all that does is make it more enjoyable for a finite number of times before it gets boring. It just takes a tad longer to get boring, but still not long at all.
We played MMOs, not for "fun" but to achieve goals. They have always been goal oriented. The process of achieving those goals was not aways fun. It was never meant to be. But, it was in achieveing those goals, that were were able to create our own periods of "fun".
If you believe the Forums then Yes. However, I used to be able to get into Lion's Arch on my Server without being transferred to an overflow. Now every time I go there I'm in an overflow
I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other as my Server may not be an accurate representation.
As others have said, people who are happy with the game, don't usually post unless there is a technical problem, etc. People who don't like the game or just dislike it (I will not use the word hate any more) will post because they feel they need to be heard. That is fine but, don't take those posts as the majority of players or anything else. They are the people who want to complain.
Complain away, but pleae be educated about the complaints.
Dear sir thank you. today is the day I have been on these forums (not registered) since 2004 made an account over a year ago, but today is the day I will be leaving and also you are correct in that post. Happy holidays, see you guys in game.
Add me in-game we will have some fun.
Silk.8302 or Sammy Eli
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Two people from my guild haven't logged on in a while, so ya the whole world has given up and mass exodus has begun.......
btw I saw two dead cockroaches the other day so they are definately going extinct.
If you saw two dead cockroaches the other day I would say call the exterminator and clean up after yourself LOL.
Two people in YOUR guild that doesn't play doesn't mean you have the ONLY Guild in GW2, apart that alot of people are no longer playing , and acounting from tons and tons of guilds , even on this site, that members are saying that hardly anyone is on anymore does kinda push the " Exodus" theory to liable, while thats good that there's only two people in your entire guild that no longer plays means that some people will find even the most boring games fun ! Just joking!
So you are saying that my two people account does not prove a mass exodus but your "tons and tons" and "alot" account does push the "mass exodus" theory to liable?? right....
These are views of former players and if you can't take that then why post? Hell if the theory of a max exodus does not exists , why are you here posting instead of playing?
Maybe you need to get off of your high horse and except that many people don't have your similar views , or mine for that matter.
Almost all the GW2 posts here, you have made it clear that you are a steadfast defender of the game ( which is a nicer way of saying " Fanboi"), while I applaud you , alot of people think other wise, no need to bash people based on their views, this is what they are seeing and I agree with them, and the reason behind the " Exodus" ? Because it's the same old same old tried and true mmorpg formula that was just copy and pasted so many times, does it make the game bad? No , but it lacks staying power, and with the dynamic events, hell Rift does a better job. Yet again, these are MY opinions and views, but if you feel the further need to bash or mock me again, go right ahead, because I'll just shoot back again with " My views , my opinions ".
Im not saying the game might not be going through "mass exodus", what Im saying is that people should have more concrete facts/evidence instead of "all my friends stopped playing" and "Ive seen a lot of people say they quit". It reminds me of news media, they sensationalize everything with no substance to back it up.
What is it you need to see? What other method does a player require than to log in and see no one on his friends and guild lists to determine that no one he knows plays anymore? What more "substance" does one require than to log in and find oneself alone?
I would agree. If the fact that literally EVERYONE I know (to the tune of about 50 to 60 players) has quit, except for me and my wife, what *am* I supposed to use as an indicator? Not that it matters. Whether there is a mass exodus or not, *I* am experiencing a mass exodus on a personal level.
I would agree GW1 has a better design for what it is, but the comparison between instanced lobby style and persistent world isn't fair because the latter introduces so many more hurdles and a level of complexity that the lobby style doesn't have to deal with.
Well I think Anet tried to bring some stuff over from GW1 that worked in a lobby style game that wouldn't and obviously doesn't work in a persistent world style game ala GW2.
If you are doing a lobby style game, you have to have challenge, dynamic interaction (combat), and measurebale gains (progression.)
It doesn't matter if you have to replay the same mission or area dozens of times if that area presents a challenge that must be overcome, if you are required to play competently with precision, and you have measurable gains.
That's pretty much the bread and butter of the "themepark" success of games like WoW, which is in itself simply an extension of the Diablo addicitive design philosophy that has been/is still proven to work and be popular.
Hell even FPS games like the Halo series and CoD have done incredibly well following those three basic tennants.
What happened with GW2 is that Anet is asking players to repeat the same missions or areas dozens of times but
-the challenge is artificial, like games of old like Contra etc. it's not really hard per say it's just unforgiving - which leads to frustration more than anything.
-there really is no precisioin or required competence in the game play because all of the professions are homogonized into bland replicas of fully formed roles in other games (including their own freshman effort) and as such the "skill" required is summarized into whack-a-mole which even children only find fun at the county fair for a few minutes.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
If you want to put a game into a persistent world, you have to reject the tennants of the lobby game almost entirely - you can't water them down and spread them out and try to hide them.
WoW works and still works because the level up process is really just an extended tutorial. PvP offers challenge, hard-modes and heroics/challenge-mode dungeons/raids offer challenge. The combat is dynamic in the sense that it is reactive and each player has a defined role that is very well structured and the interactions between players within these roles hasn't been done better in any themepark than it is in WoW. Obviously the reward/progression treadmill is there.
But in a persistent world, in order to "do it right" you have to do things completely differently.
No planetside isn't on Any timers,you own a base until one of the other sides take it off you. There's no "oh god I put all that effort in and they swapped the servers around an hour later"
I am not leaving the game for good since it is non-sub based, but I certainly won't be playing it that often. I am also unlikely to buy any expacs or gems, unless ANet turns around. The Ascended gear is a major turnoff to me.
I would agree GW1 has a better design for what it is, but the comparison between instanced lobby style and persistent world isn't fair because the latter introduces so many more hurdles and a level of complexity that the lobby style doesn't have to deal with.
Well I think Anet tried to bring some stuff over from GW1 that worked in a lobby style game that wouldn't and obviously doesn't work in a persistent world style game ala GW2.
If you are doing a lobby style game, you have to have challenge, dynamic interaction (combat), and measurebale gains (progression.)
It doesn't matter if you have to replay the same mission or area dozens of times if that area presents a challenge that must be overcome, if you are required to play competently with precision, and you have measurable gains.
That's pretty much the bread and butter of the "themepark" success of games like WoW, which is in itself simply an extension of the Diablo addicitive design philosophy that has been/is still proven to work and be popular.
Hell even FPS games like the Halo series and CoD have done incredibly well following those three basic tennants.
What happened with GW2 is that Anet is asking players to repeat the same missions or areas dozens of times but
-the challenge is artificial, like games of old like Contra etc. it's not really hard per say it's just unforgiving - which leads to frustration more than anything.
-there really is no precisioin or required competence in the game play because all of the professions are homogonized into bland replicas of fully formed roles in other games (including their own freshman effort) and as such the "skill" required is summarized into whack-a-mole which even children only find fun at the county fair for a few minutes.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
If you want to put a game into a persistent world, you have to reject the tennants of the lobby game almost entirely - you can't water them down and spread them out and try to hide them.
WoW works and still works because the level up process is really just an extended tutorial. PvP offers challenge, hard-modes and heroics/challenge-mode dungeons/raids offer challenge. The combat is dynamic in the sense that it is reactive and each player has a defined role that is very well structured and the interactions between players within these roles hasn't been done better in any themepark than it is in WoW. Obviously the reward/progression treadmill is there.
But in a persistent world, in order to "do it right" you have to do things completely differently.
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
If you want to put a game into a persistent world, you have to reject the tennants of the lobby game almost entirely - you can't water them down and spread them out and try to hide them.
WoW works and still works because the level up process is really just an extended tutorial. PvP offers challenge, hard-modes and heroics/challenge-mode dungeons/raids offer challenge. The combat is dynamic in the sense that it is reactive and each player has a defined role that is very well structured and the interactions between players within these roles hasn't been done better in any themepark than it is in WoW. Obviously the reward/progression treadmill is there.
But in a persistent world, in order to "do it right" you have to do things completely differently.
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
Game makers need to consider what lots of players will enjoy. Maybe not "the masses" but a good enough percentage to cover their game financially, at least. I don't know about BadSpock, but when I talk about the popularity of their design decisions, I'm trying to look at it from their perspective, and open that up for discussion. Not just focus exclusively on what I personally enjoy.
What kind of discussion could we even have, just saying "I like this" and "Well, I don't" - there's nothing there to even discuss, really.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
If you want to put a game into a persistent world, you have to reject the tennants of the lobby game almost entirely - you can't water them down and spread them out and try to hide them.
WoW works and still works because the level up process is really just an extended tutorial. PvP offers challenge, hard-modes and heroics/challenge-mode dungeons/raids offer challenge. The combat is dynamic in the sense that it is reactive and each player has a defined role that is very well structured and the interactions between players within these roles hasn't been done better in any themepark than it is in WoW. Obviously the reward/progression treadmill is there.
But in a persistent world, in order to "do it right" you have to do things completely differently.
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
Game makers need to consider what lots of players will enjoy. Maybe not "the masses" but a good enough percentage to cover their game financially, at least. I don't know about BadSpock, but when I talk about the popularity of their design decisions, I'm trying to look at it from their perspective, and open that up for discussion. Not just focus exclusively on what I personally enjoy.
What kind of discussion could we even have, just saying "I like this" and "Well, I don't" - there's nothing there to even discuss, really.
Thanks for the above. I do agree with you. It seems people are polarized in politics, religion, etc. and why not games too. There is no longer any civil discourse about anything. It all comes down to name calling and attitude.
BadSpock has been very candid and I for one appreciate his thoughtful discourse. I am sorry to see him go but I appreciate the thoughtful remarks and discussion that came from it.
All games have a basic design and with the design comes specific desicions and compromises to make a game work. All games are like that. SWTOR put much of there money into voices, etc. Some put money into graphics engines (TERA with the Unreal 3 engine). All are compromises - we just have to pick what we like and go with it.
Originally posted by MurlockDance I am not leaving the game for good since it is non-sub based, but I certainly won't be playing it that often. I am also unlikely to buy any expacs or gems, unless ANet turns around. The Ascended gear is a major turnoff to me.
[mod edit]
I didn't have to post it, but I did. Just the same as you didn't have to post a reply, but you did.
My reply was to the OP and his discussion. Yours was pretty much pointless, just telling me to shut up. Nice attitude to have on a gaming forum, kudos to you.
If you think ANext is not expecting people to keep on paying you are sorely wrong. If I paid 15 USD a month on gems, the same amount for the average sub in a sub-based MMO, they would make 180 USD a year from me. That is the same as buying the game another 3 times at the original retail price for an SE. So that is totally not interesting to them. I guess you are right. Let alone buying expacs that might retail anywhere between 30 and 60 USD....
They want to turn off their players so that we never buy an expac or spend money on gems...
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
Umm what? When did I ever say "I" or "me" or imply I was dictating or on some ego trip?
I'm simply shedding light to truths that are self evident all to themselves.
History is a great teacher.
Popular may not = good but it certainly shows what has mass appeal.
Anet designed GW2 for mass appeal, so comparisons are relevant and important.
They dropped the ball. Plain and simple.
They had/have some really, really great ideas that I love in the game - but they also really, really missed the mark on almost a psychological level to connect with the modern gamer.
I attempted to shed light on how this might be so.
And the truth is evident in their actions in response to what has happened since launch.
Originally posted by MurlockDance I am not leaving the game for good since it is non-sub based, but I certainly won't be playing it that often. I am also unlikely to buy any expacs or gems, unless ANet turns around. The Ascended gear is a major turnoff to me.
[mod edit]
I didn't have to post it, but I did. Just the same as you didn't have to post a reply, but you did.
My reply was to the OP and his discussion. Yours was pretty much pointless, just telling me to shut up. Nice attitude to have on a gaming forum, kudos to you.
If you think ANext is not expecting people to keep on paying you are sorely wrong. If I paid 15 USD a month on gems, the same amount for the average sub in a sub-based MMO, they would make 180 USD a year from me. That is the same as buying the game another 3 times at the original retail price for an SE. So that is totally not interesting to them. I guess you are right. Let alone buying expacs that might retail anywhere between 30 and 60 USD....
They want to turn off their players so that we never buy an expac or spend money on gems...
They had the same system in GW1 - with costumes every major holiday and the like. I never bought them. I didn't spend ANY money in the CS in GW1 and you don't in this one either. If you think you do, then I think, you may be mistaken.
I have over 200 guildmates currently and we had a poll about how much they spent on GW2 gems so far. Most used in game gold to get gems, was the Major outcome of that poll. So, NO you don't HAVE TO SPEND THAT MUCH IN THE CS and in fact you don't have to spend anything in the CS. It is your choice.
That is way different from a sub game where you have to pay in order to play. They are not the same and equating them to be the same is not a valid argument.
The fact is simple, GW2 was over hyped and under delivered.(at least in my personal experience) All but two of my friends quit GW2 within a month. You hit level 80, then realize that there was no puporse to leveling in the first place. What is there to do at 80 other than grind? Dungeons aren't fun without some sort of reward, and sorry Weapon/Gear skins are not rewards to me. PvP is lackluster, yes it is somewhat balanced compared to other games, but it still didn't give me the thrill of sieging in Warhammer, or Breaking the 2.2k bracket in Arena(I'm not elite, just had good teammates and a bit of luck). I wanted so badly for this game to replace WoW, or Rift, but sadly, it doesn't come anywhere close as to being a overall complete game.
Now they've added the first step in their gear tredmill....But instead of you getting gear that is actually useful, you now.."HAVE" to have this gear just to progess, no quesitons asked. That is worse than anything wow has done ever imo. Give you items with "almost" identical stats... but special gem slots so you can progress? What a bunch of bullshit.
Again, this is my opinion, no need for people to get angry, or flame. Just stating what I deem to be facts in my world. Good riddence GW2.
Originally posted by MurlockDance I am not leaving the game for good since it is non-sub based, but I certainly won't be playing it that often. I am also unlikely to buy any expacs or gems, unless ANet turns around. The Ascended gear is a major turnoff to me.
You didn't have to post that here - you could just leave. Or do you want people and A.Net to scream, "NO PLEASE DON'T LEAVE!! WE NEED YOUR MONEY - WAIT WE GOT IT FROM THE BOX.' SEE YA!!
I didn't have to post it, but I did. Just the same as you didn't have to post a reply, but you did.
My reply was to the OP and his discussion. Yours was pretty much pointless, just telling me to shut up. Nice attitude to have on a gaming forum, kudos to you.
If you think ANext is not expecting people to keep on paying you are sorely wrong. If I paid 15 USD a month on gems, the same amount for the average sub in a sub-based MMO, they would make 180 USD a year from me. That is the same as buying the game another 3 times at the original retail price for an SE. So that is totally not interesting to them. I guess you are right. Let alone buying expacs that might retail anywhere between 30 and 60 USD....
They want to turn off their players so that we never buy an expac or spend money on gems...
It doesn't seem like the GW2 Fan(atic)s are all that interested in what is logically good for "their" game long-term. Rather, they are focused on aggressively "disproving" opinions that differ from their own. I don't feel like that approach is going to help slow or stop the mass exodus of players from "their" game.
I believe that a better approach would be to discuss why people are becoming bored and then bringing those points up to the ANet devs through official channels. If you really care about the game, you need to want it to retain players. The smaller the Gem Store market becomes, the more aggressive it will get. People can downplay the importance of the Gem Store to ANet's revenue model all they want, but the fact is ANet hired a Monetization Producer to run the Gem Store. Someone's full time salaried position is to make sure the Gem Store is profitable. That sounds like it's important.
Well I think Anet tried to bring some stuff over from GW1 that worked in a lobby style game that wouldn't and obviously doesn't work in a persistent world style game ala GW2.
If you are doing a lobby style game, you have to have challenge, dynamic interaction (combat), and measurebale gains (progression.)
It doesn't matter if you have to replay the same mission or area dozens of times if that area presents a challenge that must be overcome, if you are required to play competently with precision, and you have measurable gains.
That's pretty much the bread and butter of the "themepark" success of games like WoW, which is in itself simply an extension of the Diablo addicitive design philosophy that has been/is still proven to work and be popular.
Hell even FPS games like the Halo series and CoD have done incredibly well following those three basic tennants.
What happened with GW2 is that Anet is asking players to repeat the same missions or areas dozens of times but
-the challenge is artificial, like games of old like Contra etc. it's not really hard per say it's just unforgiving - which leads to frustration more than anything.
-there really is no precisioin or required competence in the game play because all of the professions are homogonized into bland replicas of fully formed roles in other games (including their own freshman effort) and as such the "skill" required is summarized into whack-a-mole which even children only find fun at the county fair for a few minutes.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
Umm what? When did I ever say "I" or "me" or imply I was dictating or on some ego trip?
I'm simply shedding light to truths that are self evident all to themselves.
History is a great teacher.
Popular may not = good but it certainly shows what has mass appeal.
Anet designed GW2 for mass appeal, so comparisons are relevant and important.
They dropped the ball. Plain and simple.
They had/have some really, really great ideas that I love in the game - but they also really, really missed the mark on almost a psychological level to connect with the modern gamer.
I attempted to shed light on how this might be so.
And the truth is evident in their actions in response to what has happened since launch.
Writing is on the wall man.
I highlighted the part of your original text which I was referring to.
I don't want to have a gear progression based off of stats and I think that GW1 did a better job than GW2 in this regard. I think that gear stat progression is just a cheap excuse for putting out easy content, and I applaud the efforts of people that put out the extra work for horizontal progression.
See how I structured that paragraph without telling everybody else what they were supposed to think.
As for your rebuttal, I am curious as to what resources you use to understand the psychology of the modern gamer. Did you read a book or perform a study? I'm lead to beleive by your candid attitude, that you would equate yourself to be somewhat of an expert, and I would really like to know the source of your inspiration.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I didn't have to post it, but I did. Just the same as you didn't have to post a reply, but you did.
My reply was to the OP and his discussion. Yours was pretty much pointless, just telling me to shut up. Nice attitude to have on a gaming forum, kudos to you.
If you think ANext is not expecting people to keep on paying you are sorely wrong. If I paid 15 USD a month on gems, the same amount for the average sub in a sub-based MMO, they would make 180 USD a year from me. That is the same as buying the game another 3 times at the original retail price for an SE. So that is totally not interesting to them. I guess you are right. Let alone buying expacs that might retail anywhere between 30 and 60 USD....
They want to turn off their players so that we never buy an expac or spend money on gems...
They had the same system in GW1 - with costumes every major holiday and the like. I never bought them. I didn't spend ANY money in the CS in GW1 and you don't in this one either. If you think you do, then I think, you may be mistaken.
I have over 200 guildmates currently and we had a poll about how much they spent on GW2 gems so far. Most used in game gold to get gems, was the Major outcome of that poll. So, NO you don't HAVE TO SPEND THAT MUCH IN THE CS and in fact you don't have to spend anything in the CS. It is your choice.
That is way different from a sub game where you have to pay in order to play. They are not the same and equating them to be the same is not a valid argument.
You are putting thoughts into my head that aren't there just to try to prove some point that is not even worth making. No where in my post did I say that I felt I had to pay anything beyond the initial price of the box or expac.
I am not mistaken about having to or not having to spend money in the cash shop. If a game is really good and I like the devs, I CHOOSE to spend money in the cash shop. That is how it works with ANet thank goodness. I did that for GW1 when I played it heavily. I have no problems spending 15 USD/month for a game that I really enjoy since I would put any money expenditure beyond the box price on par with what I feel is in line with the subscription games. The devs are fully hoping that people in general will feel like I do if not on how much they are willing to part with, but at least in paying further.
Let me re-emphasize that again: ANet hopes that we players enjoy their game so much that we are willing to spend cash in their cash shop and eventually buy expacs. If players are turned off and don't, then there will be big issues for further development of GW2 and not only might players see a more aggressive cash shop, but further content might not be released as quickly or to a high level of quality as it could be.
If you are just wanting to bicker for the sake of bickering, I have nothing more to say to you.
It doesn't seem like the GW2 Fan(atic)s are all that interested in what is logically good for "their" game long-term. Rather, they are focused on aggressively "disproving" opinions that differ from their own. I don't feel like that approach is going to help slow or stop the mass exodus of players from "their" game.
I believe that a better approach would be to discuss why people are becoming bored and then bringing those points up to the ANet devs through official channels. If you really care about the game, you need to want it to retain players. The smaller the Gem Store market becomes, the more aggressive it will get. People can downplay the importance of the Gem Store to ANet's revenue model all they want, but the fact is ANet hired a Monetization Producer to run the Gem Store. Someone's full time salaried position is to make sure the Gem Store is profitable. That sounds like it's important.
I absolutely agree with you, well said, although I would prefer to say "high turnaround" of players rather than "mass exodus" because exodus denotes a movement from A to be B with the very likely outcome that those who are leaving can never go back. Obviously, you can come back to GW2 anytime once you've bought the box, which is what my original post was about though I guess I didn't expand on it enough.
High turnaround means players come and leave quickly and even if they do return again at some point, they might not play long enough to get hooked. A player who is hooked will have an increased chances of spending money on the cash shop or buying expacs.
High turnaround also causes problems for the community in the game in my opinion. How can you ever make long-term friends if some people are there for a few days and then disappear for a month? This is also an issue for guilds. Long-term ingame friends usually means players will play the game regularly for the long-term: if you read a lot of threads about WoW and its longetivity, players often say that the only reason why they stay is because their friends are in the game.
Im huge fan of Guild Wars 1. Probably the best mmo experience i have ever had.
However Guild Wars 2 is simply badly designed. Important systems that keep people playing are simply not in place and now there are headed the wrong direction again. Gear grind is not what the game lacks.
You simply can not play an MMORPGs on and off. its not the nature of the genre. You play MMORPGs to play with other people. If they stop playing, playing alone sucks.
Horrible title system. They are basically invisible and generic. So unlike Guild Wars 1 you have nothing to work towards. Guild Wars 1 didnt have gear grind either but the implementation of gear sets (and the amount of and diversity of style) was much better. Earning titles in that game was amazingly rewarding. PvP titles even had special emotes.
In Guild Wars 1 you didnt have to grind dungeons. Gear-sets required materials which you could work towards getting however you wanted, you werent "forced" to do any particular thing.
Why are people bored? The game is simply empty. Nothing seem to matter all there is to endgame is badly designed gear grind. MMORPGs are FUN becouse you can accomplish something or work towards something each day. If this element is missing the game becomes pointless. (Legendaries alone are simply not enough)
I also believe the combat system gets really boring after a while. GW1 had amazing depth which GW2 lacks. There arent enough viable combinations and the fact that skills are tied to weapons is a huge limiting factor. I could spend hours in GW1 making new 8 skill builds and having fun in random arena. Here all you can change are traits and 3 skills. And yes the trait system is also a step back from GW1 attribute/dual class system which made the game tons of fun.
PvP maps are too similar. Where is random arena from Guild Wars 1? 5v5 death match? 3 team KoTH Hall of Heroes? Where are the epic announcements that XY won in Hall of Heroes? PvP diversity is horribly luckluster.
Does anyone see more than 5 players in any zone that isn't Orr or the starting areas?
Leveling my guardian up and she hit 45today.
15-45 was just dead zone after dead zone after dead zone.
Even worse, I have been in 45-70 zones the past week and a half (dont get to play too much) and I can count the number of players I have seen in that entire time in those zones on my fingers, and I am on a "full" server, which by my estimation must be measured by how many people are in Lion's Arch and Orr, because there has been loads of room in every other zone.
There is no doubt that ANET took a long look at what the major complaints were about themeparks and why games like WoW were losing Subs. But I also think that many players left WoW for reasons other than what they said. It's tough to explain, but players lost a "feeling" they got when they played WoW. And then to try to put that into words and explain why. So much was lost in that translation. So when ANET decided to design a game around it, they heard the words, but missed the "feeling".
I think they tried too hard to be too radically different all at once and as a result introduced to many new and untested mechanics. These mechanics had too many unforseen and undesireable dynamics. Mechanics such as allowing to post items to the TP from anywhere. In retrospect, it's probably not one of the better mechanics in terms of helping the game's economy....if it ever really had one.
I think the biggest area ANET "missed the boat" was trying to make the grind "fun" people who have been around MMOs since long before 2008 remember what grinding was. Yeah, we hated it, but it was (still is) a necessary evil. Too many games have been removing it. But instead, they need to embrace it. It is necessary afterall. And instead, make it more meaningful. Anyway. To try to make repetition fun in a video game? Not gonna happen. You can make the activities more fun than they were previously, but all that does is make it more enjoyable for a finite number of times before it gets boring. It just takes a tad longer to get boring, but still not long at all.
We played MMOs, not for "fun" but to achieve goals. They have always been goal oriented. The process of achieving those goals was not aways fun. It was never meant to be. But, it was in achieveing those goals, that were were able to create our own periods of "fun".
This X100....and Im not surprised it such a great explanation seeing as it's the great and wise Geezer!
Comments
I don't see why you can't. There is actual pve in wvw that can nab you a ton of gold. I wasn't counting that as regular pve because its part of wvw.
I also don't think thats right. WvW is very crowded, you just have to make sure you play it safe until higher levels. Besides you level up pretty fast in WvW. I've actually got one character were I do mostly wvw on and I've been there at level 10, didn't die much either.
Is it on a timer though?? I thought it was on some sort of timer at one point.
As others have said, people who are happy with the game, don't usually post unless there is a technical problem, etc. People who don't like the game or just dislike it (I will not use the word hate any more) will post because they feel they need to be heard. That is fine but, don't take those posts as the majority of players or anything else. They are the people who want to complain.
Complain away, but pleae be educated about the complaints.
EvE does a lot right of what SHOULD make a MMORPG - but the game is not without it's fair share of problems (of which I could go on and on about them) which is why I think you see a lot of success and loyalty from EvE players and why so many are curious about EvE but in the end don't stick with it (like me.)
As it relates to GW2 though, they get a lot of things right in what makes a good themepark MMO but on a basic design level they also made some pretty glaring mistakes - mistakes I don't think they forsaw as I know I sure didn't until they were in my face.
I actually think GW1 was a better designed game for what it was trying to be.
THIS.
There is no doubt that ANET took a long look at what the major complaints were about themeparks and why games like WoW were losing Subs. But I also think that many players left WoW for reasons other than what they said. It's tough to explain, but players lost a "feeling" they got when they played WoW. And then to try to put that into words and explain why. So much was lost in that translation. So when ANET decided to design a game around it, they heard the words, but missed the "feeling".
I think they tried too hard to be too radically different all at once and as a result introduced to many new and untested mechanics. These mechanics had too many unforseen and undesireable dynamics. Mechanics such as allowing to post items to the TP from anywhere. In retrospect, it's probably not one of the better mechanics in terms of helping the game's economy....if it ever really had one.
I think the biggest area ANET "missed the boat" was trying to make the grind "fun" people who have been around MMOs since long before 2008 remember what grinding was. Yeah, we hated it, but it was (still is) a necessary evil. Too many games have been removing it. But instead, they need to embrace it. It is necessary afterall. And instead, make it more meaningful. Anyway. To try to make repetition fun in a video game? Not gonna happen. You can make the activities more fun than they were previously, but all that does is make it more enjoyable for a finite number of times before it gets boring. It just takes a tad longer to get boring, but still not long at all.
We played MMOs, not for "fun" but to achieve goals. They have always been goal oriented. The process of achieving those goals was not aways fun. It was never meant to be. But, it was in achieveing those goals, that were were able to create our own periods of "fun".
Dear sir thank you. today is the day I have been on these forums (not registered) since 2004 made an account over a year ago, but today is the day I will be leaving and also you are correct in that post. Happy holidays, see you guys in game.
Add me in-game we will have some fun.
Silk.8302 or Sammy Eli
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
I would agree. If the fact that literally EVERYONE I know (to the tune of about 50 to 60 players) has quit, except for me and my wife, what *am* I supposed to use as an indicator? Not that it matters. Whether there is a mass exodus or not, *I* am experiencing a mass exodus on a personal level.
Well I think Anet tried to bring some stuff over from GW1 that worked in a lobby style game that wouldn't and obviously doesn't work in a persistent world style game ala GW2.
If you are doing a lobby style game, you have to have challenge, dynamic interaction (combat), and measurebale gains (progression.)
It doesn't matter if you have to replay the same mission or area dozens of times if that area presents a challenge that must be overcome, if you are required to play competently with precision, and you have measurable gains.
That's pretty much the bread and butter of the "themepark" success of games like WoW, which is in itself simply an extension of the Diablo addicitive design philosophy that has been/is still proven to work and be popular.
Hell even FPS games like the Halo series and CoD have done incredibly well following those three basic tennants.
What happened with GW2 is that Anet is asking players to repeat the same missions or areas dozens of times but
-the challenge is artificial, like games of old like Contra etc. it's not really hard per say it's just unforgiving - which leads to frustration more than anything.
-there really is no precisioin or required competence in the game play because all of the professions are homogonized into bland replicas of fully formed roles in other games (including their own freshman effort) and as such the "skill" required is summarized into whack-a-mole which even children only find fun at the county fair for a few minutes.
-and the rewards are completely undesirable by the masses i.e. no progression.
If you want to put a game into a persistent world, you have to reject the tennants of the lobby game almost entirely - you can't water them down and spread them out and try to hide them.
WoW works and still works because the level up process is really just an extended tutorial. PvP offers challenge, hard-modes and heroics/challenge-mode dungeons/raids offer challenge. The combat is dynamic in the sense that it is reactive and each player has a defined role that is very well structured and the interactions between players within these roles hasn't been done better in any themepark than it is in WoW. Obviously the reward/progression treadmill is there.
But in a persistent world, in order to "do it right" you have to do things completely differently.
Planetside works pretty much like daoc.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
So rather than putting things in the context with you being the self proclaimed speaker for the masses, why don't you rewrite the statement saying how this applies to you. Just because YOU need such substantial rewards does not mean I want the same thing.
Here is an example; I find people that are self-righteously proclaiming to know the desires of the masses, tend to be blinded by their own ego.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Game makers need to consider what lots of players will enjoy. Maybe not "the masses" but a good enough percentage to cover their game financially, at least. I don't know about BadSpock, but when I talk about the popularity of their design decisions, I'm trying to look at it from their perspective, and open that up for discussion. Not just focus exclusively on what I personally enjoy.
What kind of discussion could we even have, just saying "I like this" and "Well, I don't" - there's nothing there to even discuss, really.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Thanks for the above. I do agree with you. It seems people are polarized in politics, religion, etc. and why not games too. There is no longer any civil discourse about anything. It all comes down to name calling and attitude.
BadSpock has been very candid and I for one appreciate his thoughtful discourse. I am sorry to see him go but I appreciate the thoughtful remarks and discussion that came from it.
All games have a basic design and with the design comes specific desicions and compromises to make a game work. All games are like that. SWTOR put much of there money into voices, etc. Some put money into graphics engines (TERA with the Unreal 3 engine). All are compromises - we just have to pick what we like and go with it.
God bless all.
I didn't have to post it, but I did. Just the same as you didn't have to post a reply, but you did.
My reply was to the OP and his discussion. Yours was pretty much pointless, just telling me to shut up. Nice attitude to have on a gaming forum, kudos to you.
If you think ANext is not expecting people to keep on paying you are sorely wrong. If I paid 15 USD a month on gems, the same amount for the average sub in a sub-based MMO, they would make 180 USD a year from me. That is the same as buying the game another 3 times at the original retail price for an SE. So that is totally not interesting to them. I guess you are right. Let alone buying expacs that might retail anywhere between 30 and 60 USD....
They want to turn off their players so that we never buy an expac or spend money on gems...
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Umm what? When did I ever say "I" or "me" or imply I was dictating or on some ego trip?
I'm simply shedding light to truths that are self evident all to themselves.
History is a great teacher.
Popular may not = good but it certainly shows what has mass appeal.
Anet designed GW2 for mass appeal, so comparisons are relevant and important.
They dropped the ball. Plain and simple.
They had/have some really, really great ideas that I love in the game - but they also really, really missed the mark on almost a psychological level to connect with the modern gamer.
I attempted to shed light on how this might be so.
And the truth is evident in their actions in response to what has happened since launch.
Writing is on the wall man.
They had the same system in GW1 - with costumes every major holiday and the like. I never bought them. I didn't spend ANY money in the CS in GW1 and you don't in this one either. If you think you do, then I think, you may be mistaken.
I have over 200 guildmates currently and we had a poll about how much they spent on GW2 gems so far. Most used in game gold to get gems, was the Major outcome of that poll. So, NO you don't HAVE TO SPEND THAT MUCH IN THE CS and in fact you don't have to spend anything in the CS. It is your choice.
That is way different from a sub game where you have to pay in order to play. They are not the same and equating them to be the same is not a valid argument.
The fact is simple, GW2 was over hyped and under delivered.(at least in my personal experience) All but two of my friends quit GW2 within a month. You hit level 80, then realize that there was no puporse to leveling in the first place. What is there to do at 80 other than grind? Dungeons aren't fun without some sort of reward, and sorry Weapon/Gear skins are not rewards to me. PvP is lackluster, yes it is somewhat balanced compared to other games, but it still didn't give me the thrill of sieging in Warhammer, or Breaking the 2.2k bracket in Arena(I'm not elite, just had good teammates and a bit of luck). I wanted so badly for this game to replace WoW, or Rift, but sadly, it doesn't come anywhere close as to being a overall complete game.
Now they've added the first step in their gear tredmill....But instead of you getting gear that is actually useful, you now.."HAVE" to have this gear just to progess, no quesitons asked. That is worse than anything wow has done ever imo. Give you items with "almost" identical stats... but special gem slots so you can progress? What a bunch of bullshit.
Again, this is my opinion, no need for people to get angry, or flame. Just stating what I deem to be facts in my world. Good riddence GW2.
At least the uninstall was painless.
It doesn't seem like the GW2 Fan(atic)s are all that interested in what is logically good for "their" game long-term. Rather, they are focused on aggressively "disproving" opinions that differ from their own. I don't feel like that approach is going to help slow or stop the mass exodus of players from "their" game.
I believe that a better approach would be to discuss why people are becoming bored and then bringing those points up to the ANet devs through official channels. If you really care about the game, you need to want it to retain players. The smaller the Gem Store market becomes, the more aggressive it will get. People can downplay the importance of the Gem Store to ANet's revenue model all they want, but the fact is ANet hired a Monetization Producer to run the Gem Store. Someone's full time salaried position is to make sure the Gem Store is profitable. That sounds like it's important.
I highlighted the part of your original text which I was referring to.
I don't want to have a gear progression based off of stats and I think that GW1 did a better job than GW2 in this regard. I think that gear stat progression is just a cheap excuse for putting out easy content, and I applaud the efforts of people that put out the extra work for horizontal progression.
See how I structured that paragraph without telling everybody else what they were supposed to think.
As for your rebuttal, I am curious as to what resources you use to understand the psychology of the modern gamer. Did you read a book or perform a study? I'm lead to beleive by your candid attitude, that you would equate yourself to be somewhat of an expert, and I would really like to know the source of your inspiration.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
You are putting thoughts into my head that aren't there just to try to prove some point that is not even worth making. No where in my post did I say that I felt I had to pay anything beyond the initial price of the box or expac.
I am not mistaken about having to or not having to spend money in the cash shop. If a game is really good and I like the devs, I CHOOSE to spend money in the cash shop. That is how it works with ANet thank goodness. I did that for GW1 when I played it heavily. I have no problems spending 15 USD/month for a game that I really enjoy since I would put any money expenditure beyond the box price on par with what I feel is in line with the subscription games. The devs are fully hoping that people in general will feel like I do if not on how much they are willing to part with, but at least in paying further.
Let me re-emphasize that again: ANet hopes that we players enjoy their game so much that we are willing to spend cash in their cash shop and eventually buy expacs. If players are turned off and don't, then there will be big issues for further development of GW2 and not only might players see a more aggressive cash shop, but further content might not be released as quickly or to a high level of quality as it could be.
If you are just wanting to bicker for the sake of bickering, I have nothing more to say to you.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I absolutely agree with you, well said, although I would prefer to say "high turnaround" of players rather than "mass exodus" because exodus denotes a movement from A to be B with the very likely outcome that those who are leaving can never go back. Obviously, you can come back to GW2 anytime once you've bought the box, which is what my original post was about though I guess I didn't expand on it enough.
High turnaround means players come and leave quickly and even if they do return again at some point, they might not play long enough to get hooked. A player who is hooked will have an increased chances of spending money on the cash shop or buying expacs.
High turnaround also causes problems for the community in the game in my opinion. How can you ever make long-term friends if some people are there for a few days and then disappear for a month? This is also an issue for guilds. Long-term ingame friends usually means players will play the game regularly for the long-term: if you read a lot of threads about WoW and its longetivity, players often say that the only reason why they stay is because their friends are in the game.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Im huge fan of Guild Wars 1. Probably the best mmo experience i have ever had.
However Guild Wars 2 is simply badly designed. Important systems that keep people playing are simply not in place and now there are headed the wrong direction again. Gear grind is not what the game lacks.
We have to go back...
Does anyone see more than 5 players in any zone that isn't Orr or the starting areas?
Leveling my guardian up and she hit 45today.
15-45 was just dead zone after dead zone after dead zone.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Even worse, I have been in 45-70 zones the past week and a half (dont get to play too much) and I can count the number of players I have seen in that entire time in those zones on my fingers, and I am on a "full" server, which by my estimation must be measured by how many people are in Lion's Arch and Orr, because there has been loads of room in every other zone.
This X100....and Im not surprised it such a great explanation seeing as it's the great and wise Geezer!