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$15 a month? No way!

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,987Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Strycker

    This will be a short, little post/rant.

    Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

    I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

    When I pay my $15 a month I:

    - Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

    - KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

    - My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

    - In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

    - It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

    That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

    We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

    Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

    You don't quite understand 'barrier to entry'.

    Every step in the funnel toward getting a person into the game is a barrier to entry. One of the reasons many subscription games moved the credit card info off the free trial was because that, too, was a barrier to entry.  It was another step in the process of getting into the game. For most remaining subscription MMOs, the entire trial signup process has even been reduced to one single page (ex: WOW, EVE) to reduce the steps along the way to get people into the game. The barrier isn't the amount of money, rather the extra step and extra decision in that process (for either box fee or subscription fee) when trying the game. It does not refer to monthly cost or financial ability to handle ongoing payments.

    For the other points, it's rather clear you don't have any interest in an answer other than RAWR UR RIGHT RAWR, so I won't suffer you through any counterpoints on them.

     

    Well, in truth, you don't have any other counterpoints since most of what he wrote is his personal preference which of course isn't universally shared with others. In his own mind, he is generally right.

    I'll go with the theory that F2P/B2P is generally  favored more by people who want to play a broader spectrum of MMOs/games (and more intermitently )while subs are more acceptable to MMORPG "purists" such as myself who rarely plays more than one title at a time. (and is willing to stick to that one title for months if not years)

    Neither approach is wrong, and a smart  publisher would offer both options and cater to all types of buyers.

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • sleepr27sleepr27 LisbonPosts: 103Member

    The way i see things is very simple... i'm paying for entertainment, let me explain. For example, when i go to the cinema in my country i usually spend around 10 euros f(movie, popcorn, etc), in one night. When i pay a monthly fee for MMO's i have entertainment for 30 days, if you do the math it will be a very small amount per day. This example could be applied to other things just use our imagination.

    And yes i prefer to pay a monthly fee because i've had terrible experience with F2P & B2P games. Normaly you have better CS, you aren't constantly reminded that you have to unlock or buy  X or Y feature in order to continue playing or improving your experience.

    I understand the people who don't want to pay for a monthly fee, i truly do, but please stick to your ideals. I know some guys which are truly annoying, they are constantly saying things like  "paying monthly fees is dumb" yet they've played several monthly fee games and some even bought games at launch and never installed them. Hilarious i know.

     

     

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 839Member Uncommon

    I am not oppsed to any of the models as such. It all comes down to fairness. If I am given a fair deal, I am happy.

    EVE gives me a good deal.

     * The P2P model works in the favor of the game. In a shared competitive world limiting players from content is balance and emersion breaking.

     * Expansions are included

     * Good intial purchase price

    Dungeons & Dragons Online give me a good deal.

      * The F2P model fits nicely to its heavily instanced model. This is mostly comparable to normal multiplayer games, with an advanced lobby and item trading system. Another comparison is DLC for a single player game.

      * Pricing on most options & items are fair

      * I can play when i want to. It does not matter if I burn out on the game, as I own the content, and can return to it when I like without additional cost.

    Other game of notice:

    RIFT: + Good initial purchase price, - Payed expansions

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by aladinversuk
    i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.

     

    'wasted'?

    How little would you actually have to play in a week to feel like £2.50 (or thereabouts) was 'wasted'? An hour? Two?

    My thought is that if you are playing less than an hour a week in a MMORPG often enough to feel the burn of the 'waste' then maybe this genre isn't for you.

    My opinion is that the sub offers amazing value on an ongoing basis and promotes better core game design and a more stable community, with less focus on manipulating you into spending, and a more even play field for play to achieve gamers.

    I used to have 5 level 80's all in raid gear in WoW, I have 2 max level toons in SWTOR, and 1 max level toon in Rift in raid gear, a few LoTRO toons I miss playing, a handful of toons in EQ1 and more toons w/ house in EQ2 that I would like to play.. SO... Are you saying I should shell out $80+ a month to play my games, and not feel like I'm wasting part of it, or most of it?  Have you ever tried raiding in 5 different games at the same time?  Think about it?

    I actually think that the F2P model is pretty destructive to these games on a number of levels and, overall, represent worse value (under the often illusion of 'choice').

    PS. edit.. I would like to try out STO as well, but I'm wanting to pay a sub  for that either.. now we are up to $100 a month, and ArcheAge, NWN  and ES are just around the corner.. Should I add those 3 games to my $15 a month list as well?  Not sure about you, but I don't have $150 a month to waste on subscriptions..

     

    Questions before I answer...

    Are you saying, honestly, that you really need to play all these games concurrently? Really? How many do you play at once right now and which ones are they?

    Why did you choose these sub games to play rather then the tons of F2P ones out there, taking your play needs into account and all?

    How long do you spend in each title? Also, how much do you think that it would cost you to unlock the ability to fully access high level/ raid play in these games under a cash shop?

    Please be honest rather then fib to support a point. I am just trying to get a clear picture of your true play habits rather then a lot of 'used to's and 'want to's.

     

    Are you saying that the main benefit to F2P is that it allows a handful of players to play 5+ MMORPGs for maybe 3 hours a week each?

     

     

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    So you would rather be nickeled and dimed to death rather than just a paying a flate fee and be done with it. Interesting because potentially you can pay more out of your wallet each year for a f2p game. 
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  • EnerzealEnerzeal WarringtonPosts: 326Member

    May free to play die a horrible death.

     

    PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 839Member Uncommon

    I one respect though I do think the P2P model haven a potential inherent problem.

    Personally at least I am the type that only actively play one p2p MMO at the time. (I might have multiple subs to that game, but that is another story.) So in short for a new P2P title to make money on me another have to suffer. And I hardly think I am alone here.

    So I can see why the publishers want to move to a model taht is more B2P like, be course history shows we are more likely to pay larger sums for that type of game when viewed on a per month basis.

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member

    Generally speaking MMORPGs were designed to be an immersive experience that you just sat down and felt obligated to sub because of the intriguing content and social structure of the game. The problem people are having (exaggerated by the guy above me who mentioned $150 sub fees) is that people have no attention span, they want to try everything at once all the time rather than sit down with a group of friends and commit to something (I think people value their spare time far more than it's worth). That's why F2P will reign for quite a while, people can just easily digest content in a deriative experience that isn't meant to last a long time and then hop to the next game, dropping $20 for some classes/bagslots ect to get themselves comfortable and then jump to the next bandwagon with no feeling of commitment.

    I don't think it has to do with a barrier of entry, it has to do with the fact that the market is just fully saturated. If there was like 10 MMOs I think every gamer could find one that appealed to them and have no problem subbing to it, but there are hundreds, and more being advertised and released every week. People can't commit to a game when there's 10 more that appeal to them right around the corner, you want to try those as well and feel obligated to stick with the one you paid for and have a subscription to.

    I agree with the OP, I vastly prefer sub based games. I like the feeling that I get all of the content, don't get advertisements all over my UI, and can focus on the world I'm involved in and the interactions with players moreso than opening up a browser to unlock more bag slots ect. I also tend to think that a F2P game has to have additional development attention shifted to it's cash-shop systems and balance, the games always feel more focused on what they can annoy you with to convince you to buy stuff moreso than focused on making an engaging title. They always feel cheap, nickle-and-dime style, it feels like greasy development to me. I'm an indie developer myself and I would prefer to charge a low sub-fee like Runescape did, than spend my time developing systems to convince people to buy mechanics off the store.

    If you feel the need to game-hop every week, and can't find yourself commiting to an MMO world, then why is this genre for you?

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 839Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enerzeal

    May free to play die a horrible death.

    PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

    And just to refresh my memory, what is they monetization model on that second MMO?

    :-p

    Just kidding. I get your point.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Are we really so damn cheap that we have to have the subs argument every week?

    Buy one less can of Mt. Dew a day--your gaming bill is paid! Huzzah.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Tonin109Tonin109 ??, CAPosts: 201Member

    any game with monthly fee has a cash shop now

    so yeah go ahead pay your monthly plus some stuff you wanted but couldnt have in game because its in cash shop only

    image

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tonin109

    any game with monthly fee has a cash shop now

    so yeah go ahead pay your monthly plus some stuff you wanted but couldnt have in game because its in cash shop only

     

    There is one way this setup can make sense.  If the people that create items for the cash shop (cosmetic only, such as mounts, vanity pets, housing items, appearance items, etc) only have a job because of the cash shop.  What I mean is that the income brought in by the cash shop pays for thier dev time spent on creating cash shop items and that those developers and artists would not have a job with the company otherwise.  If this is legitimately the case, they are only adding to the game and if they did not provide cash shop items to purchase, the rest of the game would not receive any additional benefit (such as having more developers and artists to work on 'core game' features).

  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member

    $0.30 a day is just too much!

    /folds arms

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enerzeal

    May free to play die a horrible death.

     

    PS. To the person who said Eve had laid off 20% of it's staff as an indicator of it doing badly. Please learn to research your facts properly. CCP laid of 20% of its staff because it was dealing with the development of three different MMO's at once - all paid for by their SUBSCRIPTION based game Eve Online. They were finding it just a little bit expensive and laid off a large portion of their World of Darkness development team, they back burnered it, scaled it down some, and are focusing on getting their second MMO out the gate.

    I didn't state why it laid off it's staff.  I simply stated it laid off 20% of it's staff.  Thats it.  Obviously it didn't have enough funds to conver the development of all three games.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • aponeleeaponelee New York, NYPosts: 3Member
    hmm, I think there is no definetly right answer for everyone, different guys have different opinions. You will only pay for something which is valuable in your mind. If I think the game is interesting and I'd like to spend some time each day on it, I will pay that $15 per month.

    We bring you the best wow power leveling service.

  • zimboy69zimboy69 chicargo, FLPosts: 374Member Uncommon

    $15 dollers is cheap but when you multiply this  by  two  or three people

    and  by two or three games  it becomes  a lot of money very quickly

     

    especialy when you dont play that game  very much in a month

     

    there comes a point that you simply must choose  and atm nothing in the mmo world beats gw2  so why pay a sub

    image

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Tonin109

    any game with monthly fee has a cash shop now

    I don't think that's accurate, FFXIV is relaunching as P2P again and I don't believe it has a cash shop.

    Does Rift have a cash shop?

     

    Games without cash shops should promote the heck out of the fact they don't have one, I think it would attract players.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,647Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Strycker

    This will be a short, little post/rant.

    Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

    I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

    When I pay my $15 a month I:

    - Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

    - KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

    - My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

    - In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

    - It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

    That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

    We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

    Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

    You don't quite understand 'barrier to entry'.

    Every step in the funnel toward getting a person into the game is a barrier to entry. One of the reasons many subscription games moved the credit card info off the free trial was because that, too, was a barrier to entry.  It was another step in the process of getting into the game. For most remaining subscription MMOs, the entire trial signup process has even been reduced to one single page (ex: WOW, EVE) to reduce the steps along the way to get people into the game. The barrier isn't the amount of money, rather the extra step and extra decision in that process (for either box fee or subscription fee) when trying the game. It does not refer to monthly cost or financial ability to handle ongoing payments.

    For the other points, it's rather clear you don't have any interest in an answer other than RAWR UR RIGHT RAWR, so I won't suffer you through any counterpoints on them.

     

    Well, in truth, you don't have any other counterpoints since most of what he wrote is his personal preference which of course isn't universally shared with others. In his own mind, he is generally right.

    Kyleran, "I don't like F2P" is personal preference.  "In subscription I have access to all the content for my 15 dollars" is not a statement of preference but a statement of fact, and it's false for the majority of sub-based games out there.

    "Selling me things in the middle of my video game breaks my immersion" is personal preference. His statement infers that F2P has intrusive ads or immersion-breaking content like that in game. That is false. Kyleran, his stance could have easily been "When I pay my $15 a month Aunt Sally doesn't catch fire." Much like Aunt Sally catching fire, F2P games don't have ads popping up everywhere trying to get you to buy stuff while you're playing.

     

    But, if we're going to run with the contention that if he's right in his own mind then he's right, then I guess you are correct, and it would be silly of me to present a position to the contrary. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     
     

    I've played several F2P and have never been reminded or even needed to spend money on it regularly

    Your saying you don't get those li'l e-mails from turbine constantl announcing sales and deals for turbine coins? or every little chance in game that "you earned 5 coins here's a chance to go to the store 'now'!"

     

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    people should learn to ignore cash shop spam. when i boot up f2p games that have the cash shop in the launcher or in game around the minimap. i tune it out, and ignore it. as i have never once felt the need to use cash shop even in the really bad pure p2w games.

    when i look at p2p/b2p/f2p titles i dont look at the price but the game play.  and figure if i will be playing it heavy or light.  if its heavy game play (avg 6+hrs a day) then fine a p2p game isnt bad be it $1 -$20 a month. as i would be getting my entertaining out of it.  now if im only going to play it a week here and there maybe 2hrs a day... then p2p is just pointless im spending money on a product im barely using.  thats where i look at b2p or free games. as i dont have to worry iv pissed X amount of cash down the toilet this month or that month cause i only played once that month. 

    all in all the best games for value are b2p games. i enjoyed gw1 for the simple fact i didnt have to dedicate any actual time to it, to get my value for money out of it so the price tag isnt as bad. 

    i didnt bother with tsw as i didnt see my self playing it heavy.  (hell i barely play WoT now days, if i was subbing to that i would be pissed at my self lolol)

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  • uruzuuruzu Hong KongPosts: 3Member

    I dont know why there is rarely the option of the ''point system'' in Europe or NA.

     

    Going back and forth between UK and Asia for a while now, I remembered in Asia ( Not sure if its still the case now since I've not paid attention to any Asian MMOs lately) , you can just pop to the mail downstairs and buy point cards for all kinds of online games on the market. 

    I think offering the point system as an option (with the other option being monthly subs) is great for people like me , who play sgames ''iregularly'' (on/off) and doesnt want to be ''tied down'' to a particular game. 

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    The add of cash shop on top of subscription more or less killed my will to pay a monthly fee anymore.

    If a game would have only a subscription I would pay it. 15$ is really not the world. But how many MMO's are left with such a payment model ?

    And I never bought this bullshit from subscription games saying, if you want more "optional" content you must pay for those extra in the cash shop. It's pure greed. So, only option unfortunately are f2p or at max b2p mmos. I find it quite funny that I actually spent much less than 15$ a month if any money at all in those games. But hey, wasn't my decision. ;)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    I've gotten emails from every gamr company: p2p, b2p, f2p. I never once received an in game mail or ad or anything likr that advising or suggesting a new item or buy something in any game ever.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    What needs to happen is no box price free 1st days and than pay a monthly sub. This is stop developers from creating these current failed games. Remember a MMO not lasting 1yr was a fail now you can't even get them to hold subs for 30days. Such a sad state we are in.
  • XsonicXsonic Houston, TXPosts: 93Member

    If you have been playing an MMO for a long time and whine about the game(but still can't quit due to addiction with gaming), maybe it is time to take a break and play some good old fashion single player games. Just saying, there's a lot of games out there; you should not stay and play a game you don't enjoy(ie. grindfest games).

    Just quit the games you don't enjoy. The game companies will notice the decline of players and will think twice before making crappy products.

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