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Am I missing something about the ascended gear hysteria?

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  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by Scarlyng

    I'll make an honest attempt to answer an honest question. 

     

    A subset of all possible players want the best gear for their characters.  A subset of that subset (Group A) wants gear progression, because they won't keep playing  the same thing over and over without being rewarded.  Another subset (Group B) of the gear-max subset wants to play whatever content they enjoy while having the best gear.  These two camps are mutually exclusive.  Group A's desire, if implemented. invaildates Group B's, and vice versa.

    There are a lot of games that start off catering to Group A.  When, inevtiably, these games get dumbed down, Group A complains bitterly.  ANet promised that GW2 would cater to Group B (no gear progression, everything is endgame), making it just about the only game that would do so.  Now that Ascended Gear has been introduced, Group B is complaining bitterly about broken promises.

    Now, Group A will tell you their position has more merit, because gear is necessary to do the harder content.  Group B will say their position has more merit, because the introduction of better and better gear makes all other content obsolete.

    Now, it may turn out that ANet will keep a more recent promise, that Ascended Gear will be made available through a variety of means over time.  If that happens, Group A will likely complain (don't they, in every game that opens up gear acquisition?).  It may be too late to appease some portion of Group B, who will have moved on.

    I'm not sure either group is saying their position has more merit (except for, perhaps, the extremists who are really incapable of thinking beyond themselves).  I think they just acknowledge that they're different players with different preferences.  The problem that has occured, as you pointed out, is that people from group B feel like they were promised GW2 would cater to their preferences, and now feel Anet has gone back on that and began catering to group A.  

    2 things:

    1) We don't really know what portion of players subscribe to groups A or B.  I honestly suspect that the vast majority of players enjoy a continual form of progression to some extent.  Their fears that accompany gear treadmills, which I will outline below, simply supercede their enjoyment of the progression.  That is, the pros are minimal and they can live without them, but the cons are deal breakers to them.  

    2) I think we need to look more closely at what the precise objections are that group B has about gear progression.  I think the fears are threefold.  First, they're afraid they're going to be forced to acquire new gear to participate in new content.  Second, they're afraid they're going to be forced to grind for this gear.  Third, has to do with the delicate balance of how frequently new gear upgrades are released as well as the upgrades' impact on all old gear, or the severity and necessity of the upgrade.  They're afraid they're going to have to grind for new gear far more frequently than they want, and, as a result, the majority of their gameplay time is going to be consumed playing parts of the game they would rather not play.  Does that sum it up adequately?

    Despite your groups A and B being mutually exclusive, as you said, I think Anet is attempting to institute common ground, or at least systems to please both without infringing upon the fundamental objections of either.  And if the more vocal fearmongerers in Group B would just look at the big picture, i think they would see this.  More importantly, I think they'd see that none of their fears will necessarily come true with the implementation of ascended gear in its current state; and any assumptions of how much worse future iterations will be are just that: assumptions.

    Let's look at the 3 fears I outlined above and break down how current ascended gear either merits those fears or not. 

    Fear #1.  You will not (at least currently) be barred from any content just because you do not have ascended gear.  You can continue playing every part of the game you want, just like before, with or without ascended gear.  The only thing ascended gear is (presumably) necessary for is to play a more difficult version of the same dungeon you needed to already play to acquire that ascended gear in the first place.  Nothing new and unique.  

    Fear #2.  If it's not required, you obviously don't have to grind for it.  Aside from that, one of Anet's permeating philosophies seems to be to allow you to accumulate rewards by playing the game in many different ways, however you prefer.  There's no reason to think this won't be the case with ascended gear until proven otherwise in time.  FotM itself is evidence of that philosophy.  It's comprised of 9 completely different mini dungeons.  You must reach level 10 to get your first ascended item.  Each level requires completing a set of 3 mini dungeons.  That's around 3-4 runs of each mini dungeon.  All being fresh, new and fun (assuming you like dungeons), it simply doesn't feel like a grind.  

    Fear #3.  First, we have Anet's word (I know) that they will not continue to add gear tiers at an overwhelming pace.  At the very least, they've shown that they understand that this is indeed a fine balance.  They're not going to intentionally try to piss people off.  Second, more than any other MMO, getting an ascended upgrade in GW2 does not render your previous work obsolete.  Why did you go after that mystic forge greatsword?  For the skin.  Why did you choose to go after a specific dungeon set?  For the skin.  Chance are you were already able to obtain exotics with the exact or nearly exact stats you wanted pretty early on.  Prior to ascended gear, players' gear pursuits were fueled largely by desired skins.  The value of those skins and those rewards is not diminished in the slightest with the addition of ascended upgrades.  Moreover, the ascended upgrades don't instantly make all other content trivial.  (Honestly, I'd argue that aside from explorable Arah, almost all content was already trivial.  But ascended gear doesn't make it any more so.)

    That concludes my essay response that will probably not be read by anyone due to its length for now!  

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by chaintm

    4 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics / Legendary Skins (same stats of exotics)

    Is now...

    6 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics

    Ascended

    Legendary (with new stats to be added)

     

    That's the issue. Legenday where never stat'd higher then exotics and these stats do effect your base stats and in WvWvW. If they didn't no one would care.

    They did state that there will be other ways to get ascended, including WvW. It's a bit premature to panic.

    Crafting as well, I notice you can buy the back pieces by dungeon or use mystic forge to get them.

    Indeed, again for whatever reason just like in politics people seem to avoid the issue here, the issue isn't "how to get the gear" , it's more for the "grind to get the gear" if you know anything about legendaries for instance, the grind to get those is pretty crazy. A few thousand of this and that ,combined with another item to make the base item needed to make the final item.

    Mind you acended gear is less, probably like 1 step in the 4 for legendaires, HOWEVER (this is a big however) Legendaires NEVER HAD STATS better then Exotics period.

    Now that this has changed (btw they did say "and an increase to legendary items to fit the tiers better) we see two extra teirs to the grind which these tiers equal a much greater grind then before. Sure we could "not do them" but the fact remains that these stats hold to your base stats in WvWvW. That might not effect you personally in the least, but these threads come up asking "What's the big deal?" and everyone for the most part who doesn't care for the negativity of GW2 avoids the subject and reason like the plague. You want this whole topic to go away, tell ANET to put these new stats in a "PVE only enviroment" but we know this will NEVER happen. They want the forced grind to compete, they would do it for the pvp standard competition of they could get away with it, I have no doubt about it as they have no issue with keeping the stats in for WvWvW.

    But a good part of the population does WvWvW from time to time and those people will be forced to do this if they want to compete on an even table. Right now? No, it's not a big deal, a few months down the road? You bet it will be.

    Don't take me wrong here, I am not looking to stir up the pot in anyway, I just want to clerifiy to the OP and others the Real Reason this is an issue to begin with. The whole game was sold as a non-grinding tier type of gameplay. SO many of us bought into the idea that " ok i can play a few months and get to the end and have fun actually playing the game" , well it seems the hardcore players won the fight. So be it, I choose not to play the game anymore, that is my choice.

    The reason for this thou is above, not the scewed realitity others are attempting to introduce.

     

    edit: I should note that many also beleive the parent company of ANET has pressed ANET to be more profitiable in thier online store. For me and others, this is probably the main core reasons for this change, but that is a topic of another discussion.

     

     

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chaintm
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by chaintm
    snip

    snip

    snip

    snip

    edit: I should note that many also beleive the parent company of ANET has pressed ANET to be more profitiable in thier online store. For me and others, this is probably the main core reasons for this change, but that is a topic of another discussion.

     

    Well you can kiss that conspiracy thought goodbye.

    They posted that it's not true so that means they meant to do everything done. :o

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Lost-Shores-A-Cry-for-Help/page/2#post815576

    "Take your tinfoil hats off, everybody. There’s nothing sneaky or subversive going on." ~ Moderator

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    Funny thing is, people calculate how much of an upgrade it is between exotics and ascended but they fail to do the math from the character stats. So yeah the difference in stats might be something around +8% (even lower or maybe higher for certain stats) between exotics and ascended, but when you do the math to calculate how much of an upgrade it is from your character stats, its more something around +0.5% in each stat. So yeah go figure why people are complaining for something like this when they fail to do the math where it really matters.
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by BattleFelon

    I'm asking this as an honest question and not as a trolling attempt. Why does everyone think ascended gear is such a horrible thing for the average GW 2 player? From everything I've read, this gear will only be necessary for a very small section of the game. It won't affect your ability to explore the world, play most of the dungeons, or effectively PVP.

    I get that ArenaNet talked a lot of smack about "there is no endgame," but if you looked at GW 1 there were several "elite" areas like Realm of Torment and The Deep/Urgoz's Warren that appealed to a very small number of elite dungeon runners. Heck there was a time with the Factions dungeons where you had to be in an elite guild just to access those areas. None of that affected my ability to beat missions, grind titles, or play in team arenas.

    So if you're against the new gear, what is your biggest fear? Is it imbalancing WVW, preventing most players from progressing, or creating a sense of elitism in the community?

    Ever since the GW2 manifesto, many players have used the argument for "We just don't want players to grind" as a reason to quit and bash WoW and its clones. Now that GW2 has it too, players are forced to reconcile this. regardless of how major or minor, it exists. Now players are forced to place GW2 into the same category as WoW or to find the difference between WoW's gear grind and GW2's gear grind and find a way to make "We just don't want players to grind" subjective. Unfortunately, "We just don't want players to grind" is not really subjective without operating in some level of denial.

    For one, Anet never said "We just don't want players to grind."  Apparently some misguided fools tricked themselves into believing that.  Anet did say "We just don't want players to have to grind".  There is a big difference.  Unlike WoW and its cronies, you are not required to grind constantly for better gear in GW2.  But you can if you want to.

     

    ...and....if the gear you're looking for naturally drops while you are playing the "precursor" content, where's the problem?  If Ascended gear, or the materials to make it, drops while you are playing the game - higher end zones, beginning areas of Fractals, etc. - then how is it a grind?

     

    So, tell me, how is "not having to grind" a form of denial?  How does "not having to grind" make GW2 the same as WoW?

     

    I just checked the GW2 manifesto video and I'm definite the Game Designer Colin Johanson definitely says  "We just don't want players to grind" a bit pedantic on my part I know, I just couldn't let it go. 

     

    From 1:33 on..

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E

     

     

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by chaintm
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by chaintm
    snip

    snip

    snip

    snip

    edit: I should note that many also beleive the parent company of ANET has pressed ANET to be more profitiable in thier online store. For me and others, this is probably the main core reasons for this change, but that is a topic of another discussion.

     

    Well you can kiss that conspiracy thought goodbye.

    They posted that it's not true so that means they meant to do everything done. :o

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Lost-Shores-A-Cry-for-Help/page/2#post815576

    "Take your tinfoil hats off, everybody. There’s nothing sneaky or subversive going on." ~ Moderator

    meh , ok I make a million dollars a year, prove me wrong. Just saying, a moderator telling me their parent company has no say in any of their assets is laughable.

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by chaintm
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by chaintm

    4 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics / Legendary Skins (same stats of exotics)

    Is now...

    6 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics

    Ascended

    Legendary (with new stats to be added)

     

    That's the issue. Legenday where never stat'd higher then exotics and these stats do effect your base stats and in WvWvW. If they didn't no one would care.

    They did state that there will be other ways to get ascended, including WvW. It's a bit premature to panic.

    Crafting as well, I notice you can buy the back pieces by dungeon or use mystic forge to get them.

    Indeed, again for whatever reason just like in politics people seem to avoid the issue here, the issue isn't "how to get the gear" , it's more for the "grind to get the gear" if you know anything about legendaries for instance, the grind to get those is pretty crazy. A few thousand of this and that ,combined with another item to make the base item needed to make the final item.

    Mind you acended gear is less, probably like 1 step in the 4 for legendaires, HOWEVER (this is a big however) Legendaires NEVER HAD STATS better then Exotics period.

    Now that this has changed (btw they did say "and an increase to legendary items to fit the tiers better) we see two extra teirs to the grind which these tiers equal a much greater grind then before. Sure we could "not do them" but the fact remains that these stats hold to your base stats in WvWvW. That might not effect you personally in the least, but these threads come up asking "What's the big deal?" and everyone for the most part who doesn't care for the negativity of GW2 avoids the subject and reason like the plague. You want this whole topic to go away, tell ANET to put these new stats in a "PVE only enviroment" but we know this will NEVER happen. They want the forced grind to compete, they would do it for the pvp standard competition of they could get away with it, I have no doubt about it as they have no issue with keeping the stats in for WvWvW.

    But a good part of the population does WvWvW from time to time and those people will be forced to do this if they want to compete on an even table. Right now? No, it's not a big deal, a few months down the road? You bet it will be.

    Don't take me wrong here, I am not looking to stir up the pot in anyway, I just want to clerifiy to the OP and others the Real Reason this is an issue to begin with. The whole game was sold as a non-grinding tier type of gameplay. SO many of us bought into the idea that " ok i can play a few months and get to the end and have fun actually playing the game" , well it seems the hardcore players won the fight. So be it, I choose not to play the game anymore, that is my choice.

    The reason for this thou is above, not the scewed realitity others are attempting to introduce.

     

    edit: I should note that many also beleive the parent company of ANET has pressed ANET to be more profitiable in thier online store. For me and others, this is probably the main core reasons for this change, but that is a topic of another discussion.

     

     

    Current Legendaries will be upgraded to match Ascended gear.  New Legendaries will be on par with Ascended gear (in other words....skins - just like it currently is with Exotics).  New Legendaries will also have Infusion slots.  So, if you get Legendaries, you have something equal to Ascended gear.

     

    Also, your steps are incorrect.  It's only 5 steps now instead of 4 as Legendaries are same stats as Ascended as opposed to same stats as Exotics.

     

    The stats on Ascended items are not much more than that of Exotics and the same as Legendaries.  If you W3 and have Legendaries, you are on par with anyone with Ascended.  If you have Exotics you are only at a slight disadvantage.

     

    The info about Legendaries and Ascended was all in the original blog post about Ascended items.  Please read it before jumping to conclusions.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • doorb7doorb7 StaffordPosts: 60Member

    In my opinion, and anybody has the right to disagree, i think alot of the worry has been this illusion that players have complete choice in the gear that they choose, and that for this new dungeon, the fractuals, there is gear that they have no choice but to have in order to progress. Now i agree that there is more gear choices for the other dunfeons, but you still have no choice but to gear grind in any game that has gear with stats. the difference is, is that from level 1-cap, the gear you obtain is often disposable and you dont really get attached to it, however you still NEED to constantly update your gear to do the harder content. in GW2 for example, you still need to have level appropriate gear to take part in AC, you cant just go in with your level 1 white gear and get through it, but nobody sees this as a gear grind because they are levelling, and it is their level that they are worried about increasing most, and the fact that there was a gear requirement for that dungeon is if not ignored, then not as readily apparent. This changes when you get to cap becaue your level no longer increases, but developers still need a way for you to progress, and if there are not to be an increase in level cap, then new gear is needed for a tangible sense of progression in power.

    In short, you have always needed to play a part in "gear progression" you just dont notice it till max level.

    image

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by doorb7

    In my opinion, and anybody has the right to disagree, i think alot of the worry has been this illusion that players have complete choice in the gear that they choose, and that for this new dungeon, the fractuals, there is gear that they have no choice but to have in order to progress. Now i agree that there is more gear choices for the other dunfeons, but you still have no choice but to gear grind in any game that has gear with stats. the difference is, is that from level 1-cap, the gear you obtain is often disposable and you dont really get attached to it, however you still NEED to constantly update your gear to do the harder content. in GW2 for example, you still need to have level appropriate gear to take part in AC, you cant just go in with your level 1 white gear and get through it, but nobody sees this as a gear grind because they are levelling, and it is their level that they are worried about increasing most, and the fact that there was a gear requirement for that dungeon is if not ignored, then not as readily apparent. This changes when you get to cap becaue your level no longer increases, but developers still need a way for you to progress, and if there are not to be an increase in level cap, then new gear is needed for a tangible sense of progression in power.

    In short, you have always needed to play a part in "gear progression" you just dont notice it till max level.

    Exactly, something that our friend DavisFlight should read before posting nonsense like "Content should not be gated by something like gear. It's purely bad game design".

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

    That link did absolutely nothing to answer my questions.  Please reread my post.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by SirFubar
    Originally posted by doorb7

    In my opinion, and anybody has the right to disagree, i think alot of the worry has been this illusion that players have complete choice in the gear that they choose, and that for this new dungeon, the fractuals, there is gear that they have no choice but to have in order to progress. Now i agree that there is more gear choices for the other dunfeons, but you still have no choice but to gear grind in any game that has gear with stats. the difference is, is that from level 1-cap, the gear you obtain is often disposable and you dont really get attached to it, however you still NEED to constantly update your gear to do the harder content. in GW2 for example, you still need to have level appropriate gear to take part in AC, you cant just go in with your level 1 white gear and get through it, but nobody sees this as a gear grind because they are levelling, and it is their level that they are worried about increasing most, and the fact that there was a gear requirement for that dungeon is if not ignored, then not as readily apparent. This changes when you get to cap becaue your level no longer increases, but developers still need a way for you to progress, and if there are not to be an increase in level cap, then new gear is needed for a tangible sense of progression in power.

    In short, you have always needed to play a part in "gear progression" you just dont notice it till max level.

    Exactly, something that our friend DavisFlight should read before posting nonsense like "Content should not be gated by something like gear. It's purely bad game design".

    I agree.  I'm seeing the Ascended gear, especially Infusions, as something that naturally happens (loot) while you are progressing through the Fractals.  Kind of like increased stats happen (loot) as you progress through the game.

     

    But, apparently I'm just in denial.....

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by Kalstark

    but what is now stopping you from doing exactly what you were doing before? just like the OP i dont get what everyone is crying about. your saying arenanet didnt lie to you before this but how is this effecting what you were doing before? i think the world is just going downhill so fast and people do nothing these days but complain and complain when the reality is they dont know what their even complaining about. my question to everyone saying arenanet lied is, until they announced this you were enjoying the game and fealt they didnt lie to you, what is stopping you from doing EXACTLY what you were doing before?

    What I was doing before was, at my own liesurely, casual pace, raising multiple characters to max stats with the intent of trying out various different max-stat professions, weapon combos, builds, traits, and gear upgrades in various in-game venues, like WvW and PvE.  That is the reason I bought the game: I was going to be able to do in GW2 what I could not do in any other MMOG (besides 7-year old GW1).

    I cannot do that now because I cannot ever reach a state of "max stats" at my casual, liesurely pace in a never-ending gear-grind.

    Some players cannot enjoy content unless their characters can eternally progress vertically. Other players cannot enjoy content if there is never-ending vertical progression. There are literally scores of AAA MMOG's that cater to the former; GW2 promised to cater to the latter, and would have been one of 2 MMOGs (GW1 being the other) that did so.

    Some people require games where they can be sure that their characters can be "better", stat-wise, than most other players. Other players would rather play a game where most players have equal stats so that skill plus well-planned builds is more important than gear score differentials.  There are literally scores of AAA MMOG's that cater to the former; GW2 promised to cater to the latter, and would have been one of 2 MMOGs (GW1 being the other) that did so.

    Many of us came out of MMOG retirement or left other games specifically because of this. If I cannot hope to create maxed-out characters where skill and build is what is important, and if I'm excluded from content simply because I cannot max out my characters, then I might as well be playing WoW, Aion, Rift, Tera, etc.

    I can be a scrub in any game on the market; GW2 was giving me equal footing with everyone else. Now, it's just another WoW clone.

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

    That link did absolutely nothing to answer my questions.  Please reread my post.

    That post explains exactly how to obtain all of the current ascended gear and infusions.  It's up to you to determine whether or not earning each individual component (which was all detailed in the link) is grindy.  Please reread the link.  

  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by Scarlyng

    I'll make an honest attempt to answer an honest question. 

     

    A subset of all possible players want the best gear for their characters.  A subset of that subset (Group A) wants gear progression, because they won't keep playing  the same thing over and over without being rewarded.  Another subset (Group B) of the gear-max subset wants to play whatever content they enjoy while having the best gear.  These two camps are mutually exclusive.  Group A's desire, if implemented. invaildates Group B's, and vice versa.

    There are a lot of games that start off catering to Group A.  When, inevtiably, these games get dumbed down, Group A complains bitterly.  ANet promised that GW2 would cater to Group B (no gear progression, everything is endgame), making it just about the only game that would do so.  Now that Ascended Gear has been introduced, Group B is complaining bitterly about broken promises.

    Now, Group A will tell you their position has more merit, because gear is necessary to do the harder content.  Group B will say their position has more merit, because the introduction of better and better gear makes all other content obsolete.

    Now, it may turn out that ANet will keep a more recent promise, that Ascended Gear will be made available through a variety of means over time.  If that happens, Group A will likely complain (don't they, in every game that opens up gear acquisition?).  It may be too late to appease some portion of Group B, who will have moved on.

    I'm not sure either group is saying their position has more merit (except for, perhaps, the extremists who are really incapable of thinking beyond themselves).  I think they just acknowledge that they're different players with different preferences.  The problem that has occured, as you pointed out, is that people from group B feel like they were promised GW2 would cater to their preferences, and now feel Anet has gone back on that and began catering to group A.  

    2 things:

    1) We don't really know what portion of players subscribe to groups A or B.  I honestly suspect that the vast majority of players enjoy a continual form of progression to some extent.  Their fears that accompany gear treadmills, which I will outline below, simply supercede their enjoyment of the progression.  That is, the pros are minimal and they can live without them, but the cons are deal breakers to them.  

    2) I think we need to look more closely at what the precise objections are that group B has about gear progression.  I think the fears are threefold.  First, they're afraid they're going to be forced to acquire new gear to participate in new content.  Second, they're afraid they're going to be forced to grind for this gear.  Third, has to do with the delicate balance of how frequently new gear upgrades are released as well as the upgrades' impact on all old gear, or the severity and necessity of the upgrade.  They're afraid they're going to have to grind for new gear far more frequently than they want, and, as a result, the majority of their gameplay time is going to be consumed playing parts of the game they would rather not play.  Does that sum it up adequately?

    Despite your groups A and B being mutually exclusive, as you said, I think Anet is attempting to institute common ground, or at least systems to please both without infringing upon the fundamental objections of either.  And if the more vocal fearmongerers in Group B would just look at the big picture, i think they would see this.  More importantly, I think they'd see that none of their fears will necessarily come true with the implementation of ascended gear in its current state; and any assumptions of how much worse future iterations will be are just that: assumptions.

    Let's look at the 3 fears I outlined above and break down how current ascended gear either merits those fears or not. 

    Fear #1.  You will not (at least currently) be barred from any content just because you do not have ascended gear.  You can continue playing every part of the game you want, just like before, with or without ascended gear.  The only thing ascended gear is (presumably) necessary for is to play a more difficult version of the same dungeon you needed to already play to acquire that ascended gear in the first place.  Nothing new and unique.  

    Fear #2.  If it's not required, you obviously don't have to grind for it.  Aside from that, one of Anet's permeating philosophies seems to be to allow you to accumulate rewards by playing the game in many different ways, however you prefer.  There's no reason to think this won't be the case with ascended gear until proven otherwise in time.  FotM itself is evidence of that philosophy.  It's comprised of 9 completely different mini dungeons.  You must reach level 10 to get your first ascended item.  Each level requires completing a set of 3 mini dungeons.  That's around 3-4 runs of each mini dungeon.  All being fresh, new and fun (assuming you like dungeons), it simply doesn't feel like a grind.  

    Fear #3.  First, we have Anet's word (I know) that they will not continue to add gear tiers at an overwhelming pace.  At the very least, they've shown that they understand that this is indeed a fine balance.  They're not going to intentionally try to piss people off.  Second, more than any other MMO, getting an ascended upgrade in GW2 does not render your previous work obsolete.  Why did you go after that mystic forge greatsword?  For the skin.  Why did you choose to go after a specific dungeon set?  For the skin.  Chance are you were already able to obtain exotics with the exact or nearly exact stats you wanted pretty early on.  Prior to ascended gear, players' gear pursuits were fueled largely by desired skins.  The value of those skins and those rewards is not diminished in the slightest with the addition of ascended upgrades.  Moreover, the ascended upgrades don't instantly make all other content trivial.  (Honestly, I'd argue that aside from explorable Arah, almost all content was already trivial.  But ascended gear doesn't make it any more so.)

    That concludes my essay response that will probably not be read by anyone due to its length for now!  

    I mostly agree.  However, I may have seen more extremists calling "Group B's" complaints whining, when it was at least in part "Group A's" complaints that prompted the shift in direction (imo).  Of course, the extremists in group B are nearly as bad.

     

    I agree that ANet is trying to please everyone.  Unfortunately, that often ends up with pleasing no one.  Fwiw, I am not quiting the game, though I am playing less often.  I also see that there were fewer people logging in, not just in my guild, but in other guilds as well.  If this move by ANet brings people back without alienating as many or more than it pleases, it might be a good thing.  It has done nothing for my guild, who are by and large still off playing LoL and other PvP games.  They did not find the same depth in the PvP meta as there was in GW1, and this turned them off like turing off a light switch.

     

    Fear 1: It hink you're right, some people do fear being barred from content.  Others just wanted a level playing field in DE's, Wv3 and w/e.  For some of them, it is not about content being trivial, it is about not having someone else who has 45-50 more stat points than they do because they did x.  (for those who don't know, 45 is an approximation of how many stat points the currently available 3 ascended pieces offer -- 3 items, 3 stats each, ~5-7 points per stat).

     

    Fear 2: While ANet's philosophy may prove out, their word does not currently hold much water with some people.  ANet will need to hold the line on what they've promised now or even moderate Group B folk like myself will lose faith.

     

    Fear 3: For the moment, at least, Fractals has siphoned off a lot of players.  Orr is comparatively empty, other dungeon runs have dropped in number.  This may change once people have their 3 Ascended pieces, although some may just not login until the next pieces are in game.  Too soon to tell.  Skins may still be valuable, though, as you say.

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

    That link did absolutely nothing to answer my questions.  Please reread my post.

    That post explains exactly how to obtain all of the current ascended gear and infusions.  It's up to you to determine whether or not earning each individual component (which was all detailed in the link) is grindy.  Please reread the link.  

    Did you read my post?  I asked how much "grinding" you needed to to and how the stuff was acquired, whether through grinding or through playing the fractals.  That link didn't tell me any more than the wiki does.  Yes it tells me the recipes, but it never says anything about the time and effort needed to get the stuff.

     

    That's where the "how much grinding" part comes in.

     

    I'm not asking for subjective opinions on if it was a grind.  I'm asking how much time (objective) and how much effort (how many things did you have to kill or gather or how many times did you have to run a dungeon) it took to get these things.  I realize the numbers would be rough estimates and would vary from person to person, but that info would go a long way toward helping people determine if it is grindy or not.

     

    I also wasn't asking for myself specifically.  I was asking so that we could all debate what was too much time/effort to get equipment.  I intend to get Ascended gear at some point anyway and eventually Legendaries so I already think it would probably be worth it.  The difference between myself and others is that I don't mind doing things slowly.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Does anyone here have Ascended and Infused items yet?  If so, please post how much "grinding" you had to do to get it.  Please also post if the item(s), or the materials needed to make them, dropped while you were playing the earlier stages of the Fractals or if you had to grind it out in certain areas of the game.  I think that would be very good info to have.

    http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

    That link did absolutely nothing to answer my questions.  Please reread my post.

    That post explains exactly how to obtain all of the current ascended gear and infusions.  It's up to you to determine whether or not earning each individual component (which was all detailed in the link) is grindy.  Please reread the link.  

    Did you read my post?  I asked how much "grinding" you needed to to and how the stuff was acquired, whether through grinding or through playing the fractals.  That link didn't tell me any more than the wiki does.  Yes it tells me the recipes, but it never says anything about the time and effort needed to get the stuff.

     

    That's where the "how much grinding" part comes in.

     

    I'm not asking for subjective opinions on if it was a grind.  I'm asking how much time (objective) and how much effort (how many things did you have to kill or gather or how many times did you have to run a dungeon) it took to get these things.  I realize the numbers would be rough estimates and would vary from person to person, but that info would go a long way toward helping people determine if it is grindy or not.

     

    I also wasn't asking for myself specifically.  I was asking so that we could all debate what was too much time/effort to get equipment.  I intend to get Ascended gear at some point anyway and eventually Legendaries so I already think it would probably be worth it.  The difference between myself and others is that I don't mind doing things slowly.

    Dude, I clearly read your post.  No need to get sassy when all I was trying to do was offer a link that answered your question.  Apparently the disconnect between us lies in how we define "grindy."  There is no objective way to measure a grind.  It's 100% a subjective experience.  Grind is the point at which you repeat a singular activity so much that it becomes boring, begins to feel like work, or is no longer fun.  When you reach that point is entirely based on you.  If your question is about how grindy it will feel to obtain the current ascention items, seriously, nobody can answer that but you.

    If, on the other hand, you're asking how long it takes to obtain the components necessary to craft the infusions or the back pieces, once again, look at the materials.  50 ectos.  How long does it take you to acquire 50 ectos?   50 ectos cost about 12 gold.  How long does it take you to acquire 12g?  40 crystals or 240 philosopher stones.  Either requires 24 skill points.  How long does it take you to acquire 24 skill points?  250 bones/scales/blood/etc.  These can cost up to 60g.  How long does it take you to acquire 60g?  Everything that gets funneled through the mystic forge is all a function of gold.    

    I mean come on.  Are you seriously asking people in this thread how long it takes US to accumulate 72 gold?  If so, why not just say that?  

    Are you asking how frequently vials of condensed mists essences drop in FotM or how long it takes to complete one run of the dungeon (which can then be used to calculate how long it will take to get the 500 tokens needed to buy the gift of ascension)?  If so, why not just say that?

     

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    GW2 promised no carrot on a stick gear threadmill.
    3 months in and theybroke that promise.
    People get upset by a broken promise.
    WvW dint have any good updates or love, but so far we have seen 2 patches of PvE contend.

    WvW players / guilds are not happy

    it aint that hard to understand is it ?

    They can promise a heavenly paradise and 100 virgins if they want to, but until they have it written down on binding legal document, it means jack shit. The problem is that people rely far too much on beliefs and expectations rathar than cold harsh facts; however, that does not mean that the customers can wave away their moral responsability of their personal decisions.

    Just because it isn't written down in a binding legal document, it doesn't mean costumers can't say "Look those guys promised something and now they are breaking their promise".

    If user "Gaia_Hunter" says "game x will be released on the y date" and then it isn't, user "Gaia_Hunter" loses credibility, if the game is release on said date, user "Gaia_Hunter" wins credibility. And if user "Gaia_Hunter" then says the same for the next 3 games released and all the dates are right, maybe user "Gaia_Hunter" has inside sources and what he says has some credibility.

    So Arenanet has a track record of delivering on their promises, maybe not all, but most and the most important, so if they say something next, their word has higher value.

    If then Arenanet break their promises, well, it is only natural say that Arenanet word has no value.

    So word and reputation have value.

    Also, while oral contracts might no be enforceable, some are legal binding.

    What if I consider them to still be delivering on their most important promises? What if I never considered any gear progression promise to be important? Evidently, not everyone will agree with me, but analogous scenarios, in the sense of Arenanet losing credibility among a certain group of people and not losing credibility among another group of people, have happened at least ever since the manifesto was released.

    Back then they had been expressing very poorly in connection to their "personal story" section, which made Arenanet lose credibility among a certain group of people. Back then, the counter-argument goes down to: "personal responsability" and I still think it applies to the new group that got  butthurted with the introduction of Ascended gear. 

     

    About Arenanet's word and reputation: it does have value for the company itself because they can use it to reel in extra customers; however, that does not take away the consumer's responsability to consider multiple possible scenarios prior to purchase.

     

    As for oral contracts: then it is just a matter of time before we see customers sueing Arenanet and winning against them? If not: then they should just stop whining about their own personal mistakes.

     

     

  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member
    Originally posted by chaintm

    4 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics / Legendary Skins (same stats of exotics)

    Is now...

    6 STEPS

    Fine

    MasterWorks

    Rare

    Exotics

    Ascended

    Legendary (with new stats to be added)

     

    That's the issue. Legenday where never stat'd higher then exotics and these stats do effect your base stats and in WvWvW. If they didn't no one would care.

    Maybe you should rather rely on reading the ANet articles instead of relying on random opinions of people that are out on a "witch hunt" only so they can spread negativity upon a feature or gear that isn't even in the game yet.

    Most of all since all these people ending up biting on their own butt after they found out how wrong they were, trying themselves on "damage control" saying that "X company" read their posts and didn't added a vertical gear progression only because they got "afraid" that their postings "exposed" said company.

    Laughable to think that a company would change all the coding that has been done for months if not years so exact these guys can be right, but I guess you understand me.

    With other words: Ascended = Legendary when it comes to the stats.

  • NailzzzNailzzz fullerton, CAPosts: 510Member Uncommon

         If i was a cynical man, i would be concerned that more effort may be used to make the exotic gear have all the aesthetic quality while using sub par skins on ascended items to force peope to either choose between aesthetics or stats, or put them in the position of having to buy transmutation stones from the item shop to get a max stat item that looks apealing.

         That does seem to be one possible reason for the item tier change. But that is possibly just my tin foil hat talking again.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

         If i was a cynical man, i would be concerned that more effort may be used to make the exotic gear have all the aesthetic quality while using sub par skins on ascended items to force peope to either choose between aesthetics or stats, or put them in the position of having to buy transmutation stones from the item shop to get a max stat item that looks apealing.

         That does seem to be one possible reason for the item tier change. But that is possibly just my tin foil hat talking again.

    Probably the tin foil hat when you consider how many fine t-stones people have already received simply by playing the game. I know I have about 15 left, and that's with spending most of my time lately in WvW.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

         If i was a cynical man, i would be concerned that more effort may be used to make the exotic gear have all the aesthetic quality while using sub par skins on ascended items to force peope to either choose between aesthetics or stats, or put them in the position of having to buy transmutation stones from the item shop to get a max stat item that looks apealing.

         That does seem to be one possible reason for the item tier change. But that is possibly just my tin foil hat talking again.

    That's actually not even needed since the difference between them is already there through the upgrade/infusion stones.

    With Exotic gears you are more flexible on combinations through the stones so even the ascended will have slightly better stats on 3 types of stats, you can boost 6 different stats on a piece of a exotic (3 from the piece and another 3 through the stone).

    As example:

    - Ascended gear with stats on: vitality, condition damage, critical damage + infusion stone with a defensive ability vs Agony

    - Exotic gear with stats on: vitality, condition damage, critical damage + upgrade stone with healing, toughness, power

    So with Exotic you have lower stats on 3 attributes but for that you can boost another 3.

    For that, the Ascended can be used against certain types of enemies that other types of armor are not as good against (Agony damage reduction through Ascended gear) and has slightly higher stats on 3 attributes.

    So people that don't wanna go after Ascended gear, can still be relevant in most areas of the game and if played wisely by avoiding direct contact with the Agony based enemies, they could also survive against them.

    Always better to wait and see before we judge too early in my opinion.

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon

    Of course "Mr.Player" that has limited time but spare money and is willing to support te game could secide that instead of spending a few dozens hours gearing, he would instead buy some gems and buy the items he wanted, being sure he would only have to do that once.

    Now "Mr.Player" might think "why should I spend money gearing up if next month the gear I just bought will be second tier?".

    I doubt Arenanet will achieve what they were aiming for and might as well just backfire.

    You know how when governments increase taxes to collect more money and they end up with less because people (middle class/working class) react by spending less (or the very rich people just move the money somewhere else)?

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • VeryDustyVeryDusty Ann Arbor, MIPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Of course "Mr.Player" that has limited time but spare money and is willing to support te game could secide that instead of spending a few dozens hours gearing, he would instead buy some gems and buy the items he wanted, being sure he would only have to do that once.

    Now "Mr.Player" might think "why should I spend money gearing up if next month the gear I just bought will be second tier?".

    I doubt Arenanet will achieve what they were aiming for and might as well just backfire.

    You know how when governments increase taxes to collect more money and they end up with less because people (middle class/working class) react by spending less (or the very rich people just move the money somewhere else)?

     

    The problem with your tax example is that is not the truth. Based on studies, when taxes are increased our economy does better and when we decrease taxes out economy falters - study done by the non-partisan Tax Foundation. If what you say is the truth, why in the 1950's did our economy blossom so well with the highest tax rate effectively 90% (for people making $250,000 and up).

     

    It is a wait and see as the game has only been out since the end of August. 

     

    I for one, would like more lvl 80 and also more lower level content. They just may do that with the expansions, like they did in GW1. Also, the lst Rift expansion did nothing for the lower level characters only for the high levels and that is dissappointing to say the least.

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