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The GRIND stops here

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by TheBigDRC

    The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

    Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

    Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

    Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

    Your definition of grind is very odd.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheBigDRCTheBigDRC Everson, WAPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by TheBigDRC

    The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

    Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

    Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

    Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

    Your definition of grind is very odd.

    My definition of grind is somewhat broad. I think it goes together with the common complaints I've seen linked to it: time and effort.

    Meh, I was going through different write-ups for my post. I just settled with the short one. image

    You know what's fun about chaos? I do, but I won't tell.

  • Trudge34Trudge34 Stevens Point, WIPosts: 392Member Uncommon
    My interpretation of grind was different back in the day than it is today I guess. EQ1, while long leveling, wasn't a grind really for me in groups. It wasn't until I had a goal in mind that I wanted to get by the end of the night where I felt it. Was more in the hardcore exp groups looking to grind out a last bit of level or a few AA's. You just kind of put your nose to the grindstone and stayed as long as it took to grind it out. It was still fun for a while in those fast pulling groups, but after a while of constant chain pulling you felt the grind, but pushed through it to get to your goal. I like that phrase a previous poster used, fun is what made the grind go away and most of those EQ groups were very fun. 

    Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
    Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
    Currently Playing: GW2

    Nytlok Sylas
    80 Sylvari Ranger

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    For me, it depends if the combat is fun.

    I remember EQ is very grindy and boring. You wait for static spawn, and kill them exactly the same way as before. Often the game is nothing but a chat-room because of the long wait. I am glad those days are over.

    On the opposite spectrum, Diabo (1, 2 & 3) is also grindy (i mean, you do nothing but kill, kill and kill more) but very fun because you fight a lot of mobs, they can have different (random) abilties, and come at you in different ways.

     

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

    Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

    Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

    I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

    Rant off.

    Amen brother.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by TheBigDRC

    The term "grind" has been used to death as a negative. But the thing is, every game out there has grind built into it whether people want to believe it or not. It exists in different forms because that's the whole point of a game. In forms such as MMOs questing or raiding to online games that require simply killing the most to win or even simple single player games that just takes time to do.

    Everything from Pac-Man to Legend of Zelda to even shooters like DOOM or Counter-Strike. Every game has grind, even if it takes your time. And if you don't have time for it, then you shouldn't have bought it. Or at least make time.

    Get rid of the grind completely and what would you end up with? A bad movie.

    Grind is a negative term for excessive repetition and certainly not all games have it. Let's take Doom as an example, every new map is different and every new map increases in size, amount of keycards required rises, introduce new monsters, new weapons and new scenarios (its a tarp!). That is very common for games. There is no grind to get that weapon or anything. Players discover them by playing through the game.

    Your definition of grind is very odd.

    Sigh...nearly everytime you present an example...it ISN'T an MMORPG.

    I will agree that there could be a way to not make having to go to the same dungeon over and over and over and over just to get one or two items.

    Real example with relevance...currently playing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. I have a lvl 36 Sorcerer attempting to get gear in a dungeon known as VT to players. It involves acquiring runes, candles, and tomes...along with the ancient gear that drops there to create pretty nice gear. Started going there at level 32. I'm growing pretty sick of the place after going there so much, I know the whole dungeons layout, what named are where, what thier place holders are when not there....getting old.

    Hell some dungeons you out level the gear before even acquiring it.

    Wondering why can't the worlds be more varied? Drops be randomized and not localized to make it more unpredictable and exciting when something does drop? Make the dungeons more explorable with hidden passage ways, puzzles and boobytraps...

    Sure, it may still allow for you to have to or want to repeat that dungeon...but for the fun of possibly discovering something new and not simply for a predetermined piece of gear you know is at that particular spot, or finding a new secret room with some new mobs, etc. Yes...eventually the secret rooms won't be secret anymore. But who's to say with weekly/bi-weekly patches these couldn't be changed up. IDK how difficult that may or may not be...but would be nice.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Grind is something subjective most of the times.  

     

    What is grind for one person will be fun for other.  Same with other things like time-sink. For one person certain thing will be time-sink and for other will be fun or something that add to atmosphere.

     

    There is very few things that can be objectively say it is a grind.

  • LhynnSaintLhynnSaint CordobaPosts: 119Member
    Just play age of Wushu, and BAM, no more grind, you just have adventures.
  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    I can differentiate grind from gameplay.

    One way is that grind is related to the random number generator.

    Another way is that grind requires more than one of something.

    The final way is that grinding is something that takes time whether that's because players have to split rewards or another factor. Grind asks for your time.

    The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in in the hopes that being logged in you will get bored enough to strike up conversations and they want you to then login to continue those conversations. That's when grind goes bad, you can tell when your conversations with other players is about the grind itself, then it's time to exit.

    I think too that I see a lot of people who romanticize their favorite games by the grind they endured and the social aspect that helped them through it. They connect those other players as someone sharing their punishment as prisoners become friends with each other while together all the time.

     

    I think we have all seen them stating something like this "Back in my day we worked hard for things, and we HAD to group to do them, those were the good old days of mmos. Oh, I remember when I finally got that drop I had wanted for so long and the whole group cheered for me".

    Dig? They feed from each other.

     

     

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    Originally posted by greenreen

    The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in

     

     

    WRONG!!! Grinding  does not keep me logged in to a game. I log on a game to have fun. There are things that take time to achieve

    that may take time to complete. Especially in older games, as newer games tend to just drop stuff in your lap. However achieving thse things were a challenge not a grind! Already even in this thread people argue about to much GRIND. I just keep wondering  if people on these forums dislike the MMO gameplay style so much that all they do is whine a cry about it. Why bother playing?

     

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member

    I like some grinds and dislike others. In general I dislike forced grinds and love optional grinds because then I can choose if I want to do it rather then stop playing because of it.

     

    Things like the Wintersaber Tiger grind for WoW or the Sword of Lost Light quest in Asheron's Call are awesome. Grinding for side crafting jobs is lots of fun to me.

     

    But when the main path of progression becomes a grind, that is when the game gets boring.

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    Grind use to be:

    Do all the avalible quests to get 10% a level.  Then stand there and kill mobs for hours or days gaining fractional XP gains and no worthwhile drops just so you can level up and get another few quests that will get you 10%.  You had nothing in game to do but level up so your time was spent on the same mob group per level trying to level up for really no reason...since there wasnt a real endgame.

     

    Grind then became having to do something in order to get the stuff you want.  Doing stuff to get things in return, be it items or progression is the bases for all RPG game.  So these days the cries to remove grind are cries to remove RPG from mmorpgs.

     

    This is why games are so shallow, boring, and easy.  Appealing to this crowd results in removing the genere from the genere if that makes sense.

     

    The burning question for me is:  why do you guys even bother playing a mmoRPG to begin with if you hate the bases for the game mechanics?

     

    I certainly do go playing FIFA and then complain how i cant grab the ball and run with it.  I feel that a lot of mmorpg gamers do exactly this.  Beg for the RPG to remove all its RPG aspects and mechanics so they can basically get a fantasy third person shooter thats open world.

     

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon

    The concept of grind changes based on your perspective.

    I thought EQ1 was of the most grind heavy games I have ever played. I didn't think Asheron's Call was though.. yet I would circle the same dungeon for days killing Olthoi.

    When we are enjoying the surroundings and the setting, the grind is easily ignored. That is the only way to not be grinding, to not be aware you are grinding.

    All games are grinds. Everything is grind. Learning to cook? You're grinding. Eating a burger? It's a grind until you finish it. The only time it isn't grind, is when you arn't thinking about it being a grind. When you are thinking it's a grind, you really need to start thinking about why are doing it in the place. With a job the grind is worthwhile because of the payday. With a game though...?

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Crunchy222

    Do all the avalible quests to get 10% a level.  Then stand there and kill mobs for hours or days gaining fractional XP gains and no worthwhile drops just so you can level up and get another few quests that will get you 10%.  You had nothing in game to do but level up so your time was spent on the same mob group per level trying to level up for really no reason...since there wasnt a real endgame.

      

    Well, you probably didnt mean it this way, but there is you problem right there.

    This is essentailly "new age mmo design" in a nutshell, just put in "outdated" terms, the whole idea that there should be a overreaching activity that (or doing it) is the reward iself and that there should not be and is NOT ALLOWED to be any way bypass it.

    A design for players that are able to repeat something for ages while being scared of thinking about it.

    What we forget that older mmos often if not alwas featured other activities, that could speed up , bypass,  make the leveling process more profitable or just distract from it, sometimes even designed as a timesink that would ironically take more time to complete than the leveling itself.

    And we would judge the game by those features.

    But i agree, yo, we need more genre in the genre, dawg. :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Asian grinders is what developed "GRIND" into a bad term...

    No, grind was always a negative term. Stupid people and trolls made it common. Everyone else just followed along.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen

    The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in in the hopes that being logged in you will get bored enough to strike up conversations and they want you to then login to continue those conversations.

    My fear is that you actual believe anything like that ever occurred in any studio's design documents or meetings.... without someone getting laughed at or fired, of course.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by greenreen

    The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in in the hopes that being logged in you will get bored enough to strike up conversations and they want you to then login to continue those conversations.

    My fear is that you actual believe anything like that ever occurred in any studio's design documents or meetings.... without someone getting laughed at or fired, of course.

    Why do they include chat in games? Can you explain the reasoning for it other than for people to ... chat. Why did they later add ways to "link" items in chat? Was that also for no reason or was it to entice someone.

    I absolutely believe that people that develop games to create money know that chat and grinding go oh so well together.

    Think back yourself each time you interacted with someone else and why. What led up to it. I have and that's why I've noticed things like this. What made you walk up and talk to a total stranger, you didn't walk up to them and talk about your hemorrhoids right? You would talk about something in the game or seem really odd. What sort of game topics come up, things like "OMG still no drop and I've killed tons of these". What makes two strangers interact with each other unless they are commiserating or one is seeking help. Do you commonly ask for help when the item you want drops the first time you kill a mob and you only need one of them?

    Why is it fearful to you to equate the two as related, do you feel duped, no reason to, just feel aware that they are used to enhance each other.

    There's nothing wrong with understanding the psychology behind gaming or why we do it as long as you still have fun doing it. If it degrades your experience or frightens you then don't think about things like that :)

  • Nsein1Nsein1 Uhrichsville, OHPosts: 20Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by greenreen

    The problem with grinding is that it's used as a way to keep you logged in in the hopes that being logged in you will get bored enough to strike up conversations and they want you to then login to continue those conversations.

    My fear is that you actual believe anything like that ever occurred in any studio's design documents or meetings.... without someone getting laughed at or fired, of course.

    Why do they include chat in games? Can you explain the reasoning for it other than for people to ... chat. Why did they later add ways to "link" items in chat? Was that also for no reason or was it to entice someone.

    I absolutely believe that people that develop games to create money know that chat and grinding go oh so well together.

    Think back yourself each time you interacted with someone else and why. What led up to it. I have and that's why I've noticed things like this. What made you walk up and talk to a total stranger, you didn't walk up to them and talk about your hemorrhoids right? You would talk about something in the game or seem really odd. What sort of game topics come up, things like "OMG still no drop and I've killed tons of these". What makes two strangers interact with each other unless they are commiserating or one is seeking help. Do you commonly ask for help when the item you want drops the first time you kill a mob and you only need one of them?

    Why is it fearful to you to equate the two as related, do you feel duped, no reason to, just feel aware that they are used to enhance each other.

    There's nothing wrong with understanding the psychology behind gaming or why we do it as long as you still have fun doing it. If it degrades your experience or frightens you then don't think about things like that :)

    I believe many game writers wrote games that would be fun to play for the community, I believe many corporations twisted those games into profit venues. Unfortuneately the game writers who are inspired to make a good game have to bed with those corporations so they can afford the servers and staff to develope the game.

    I don't mean this to be personal at all, but to say everyone involved in the production of a game is just out for profit is sort of insiteful into ones intellect, I would not want to group with that person in an MMO because I would expect they to be the ninja looting whore. There are MANY good people in a game who will talk to you and hang with you just to be hanging with you without a cause, and if you haven't found that in an MMO then you need to play some MMO's with communities that aren't composed of childish people.

  • InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

    Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

    Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

    I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

    Rant off.

     

    If you have to repeat content 2, 3, 4 or 5 times these days its grind.

    They can no longer artificially copy paste content and expect people to swallow it.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

    Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

    Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

    I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

    Rant off.

    my god finnaly people with some sense, MMO's are not about the instant fun people want to have these days they are about community adventuring exploring.

    I remember myself in EQOA grouped with 3 guys for 2 full days (to level up from 48 to 49) 48 hours of chainpulling griphoens, and you know what it did not feel as a grind it was fun. i had fun with those people.

    This is what MMO's where and should still be. but it is overun by people with no motivation at all. only greed to get stuff asap there are other genre's for you people wich do suit your needs. gtfo of my mmo's :(

  • TjedTjed Baltimore, MDPosts: 162Member

    Yea, I loved EQ1.  It didn't seem like a grind to me, I certainly never described it as such while I was playing it.  I loved the danger, the grouping, the buffs the group content, all of it.  That feeling of wanting to get a little more in even though it's 3am and you've got work in the morning. 

    Now, I pretty much start falling asleep at my computer around 11 doing the solo quest grind. 

  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    A grinder where  you play/xp in groups, clan mates, parties are much better than all the rush to cap in 2 days - solo campaign games with multiplayer rooms we have today.
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