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  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The most popular sandbox experiences tend to be the most simplistic - where the most basic rule sets and mechanics lead to the largest variety and deepest complexity.

    Not the other way around.

     

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    For the OP, sandboxes don't have stories, so I guess that's where it ends for this debate. Stories are for single player games.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,924Member Uncommon

    I don't want to be told "a good story" in an MMORPG.  I'd much rather be told "a thousand good stories" in non-connected short arc storylines.  That way non-linear gameplay can be achieved and still have meaningful interaction with NPCs and the world.

     

    Also, I would prefer storyline content questing be entirely optional in character progression.  If I don't want to help the mages guild leader track down the missing grimoire, why should I be forced to?

     

    The key feature for me is freedom.  I want a large world that I can interact with in a manner of my own chosing.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Enough DOOOM, not really interested in becoming one of those guys.  You may want to keep an eye on PC Games existing as a market, at all, for much longer.

    As much as i see it there is a renewal of the pc market ongoing. And Steam, kickstarters, and a lot of small budget(indy) single player games have a lot to do with it.(and the easier way of distrubition, and the decline of piracy). Although the vast majority of games is nevertheless console or multiplatformer.

    But the PC market was declared dead one thousand times, and nevertheless is still alive. And i refuse nowadays to buy a console, although i owned Atari2600, NES, SEGA Master System and Super NES..

    And nevertheless the hope dies last anyways. :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

     

    I hope this thread starts the discussion of 'why do you play games?' and how that can be integrated into a 'sandbox MMO' without touching the 'sandbox' design.

     

     

    This is the only relevant question.

    i play games to have fun, to be entertained. And what entertain me?

    - good combat, with interesting abilities, choices, and the meta game of optimizing (dps and what-not), and some  challenge

    - good progression ... items, abitiies, stat points ...

    - other types of adversarial gameplay like stealth, or hacking.

    - some co-op

    - assessible .. mean less wait time, no long time commitment

    Now i don't see sandbox design is relevant to what i like. The kind of gameplay i like can be easily incorporated in a lobby game, and many themepark games have that.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

    Everyones post on here should be ignored by any developer looking to make a sandbox. Why? Because this forum has proven time and time again that collectively, we don't know what we want, or what is best for us game wise. With that said, a developer needs to start with a clean slate and create what they want. Rather than have a developer create a sandbox that tries to cater to us, maybe we need a developer that is truely trying to create something special that we can all appreciate. 

     

    Proof we get what we want:

    -we requested end game, now our games end.

    -we wanted raiding, now the rest of the game is lackluster.

    -we wanted no death penalties, now many games have a loss of accomplishment.

    -we wanted no grind in ANY form, now you can rush to the end of most games with in a month.

    -we wanted things easier to find, now many games even have an actual line you can follow on the ground to reach your destination.

    -we wanted protection from gankers, now we have no PvP in open world.

    -we wanted a safe place to PvP, now we have PvP arena's you que up for that are basically just a themepark/instance within the game that simulates an FPS battle in MMORPG form.

    -we wanted it cheaper, now we have F2P games that require in-game micro transactions to keep up to those who do pay (yes some games aren't quite as bad as others in this sense, please, not trying to start a debate).

    -we wanted faster travel, no we can just teleport anywhere and the world feels small.

     

    Now, I know some of what I have stated appeals to some, and to others not at all, but the fact is, it just shows how divided we are. I certainly didn't ask for many of those things, but collectively "WE" as a community did. So going forward, I already know what I like and don't like. Though every game has been pretty well much the same lately, I am going to keep trying them here and there in hopes that I may find one that is actually different in some way. I really hope a Dev grows some balls, takes a gamble and tries something else. It may be something that none of us have even thought of at all!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz

    Proof we get what we want:

    -we requested end game, now our games end.

    Yeh, and we are free to move on to other games.

    -we wanted raiding, now the rest of the game is lackluster.

    Wouldn't say that. Some non-raid dungeons are good.

    -we wanted no death penalties, now many games have a loss of accomplishment.

    Like what? People still rever hard core raid guilds, and world first.

    -we wanted no grind in ANY form, now you can rush to the end of most games with in a month.

    Yeh .. and can enjoy more content in a shorter time.

    -we wanted things easier to find, now many games even have an actual line you can follow on the ground to reach your destination.

    Yeh, and get rid of trivial, easy .. search and find things aspect of the game to focus on combat. Exactly what i like.

    -we wanted protection from gankers, now we have no PvP in open world.

    Yeh. Exactly why world pvp is not popular. But you can still go to pvp servers.

    -we wanted a safe place to PvP, now we have PvP arena's you que up for that are basically just a themepark/instance within the game that simulates an FPS battle in MMORPG form.

    And e-sport becomes popular. The most popular online game LOL, is an arena and nothing else.

    -we wanted it cheaper, now we have F2P games that require in-game micro transactions to keep up to those who do pay (yes some games aren't quite as bad as others in this sense, please, not trying to start a debate).

    Yeh .. and you cannot get cheaper than free. And you cannot get more assessible than zero commitment.

    -we wanted faster travel, no we can just teleport anywhere and the world feels small.

    And found that the world feel is not that important.

     

    Now, I know some of what I have stated appeals to some, and to others not at all, but the fact is, it just shows how divided we are. I certainly didn't ask for many of those things, but collectively "WE" as a community did. So going forward, I already know what I like and don't like. Though every game has been pretty well much the same lately, I am going to keep trying them here and there in hopes that I may find one that is actually different in some way. I really hope a Dev grows some balls, takes a gamble and tries something else. It may be something that none of us have even thought of at all!

    Yeah, you are right. There is no "we". Only many of "I". And i like msot of the stuff you posted. I am happy where MMOs are going.

    Devs have balls, what are you talking about? Blizz did LFD and LFR when all the hardcore fanboys were crying bloody murder about "community" and "socialization". They put it mutliple level of difficulties when hardcore raiders were crying "it dilute the challenge". They took a gamble and it worked beautiful. WOW became a much better game for many.

     

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    That is the problem. Most players can't create anything interesting.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by madazz

    Proof we get what we want:

    -we requested end game, now our games end.

    Yeh, and we are free to move on to other games.

    -we wanted raiding, now the rest of the game is lackluster.

    Wouldn't say that. Some non-raid dungeons are good.

    -we wanted no death penalties, now many games have a loss of accomplishment.

    Like what? People still rever hard core raid guilds, and world first.

    -we wanted no grind in ANY form, now you can rush to the end of most games with in a month.

    Yeh .. and can enjoy more content in a shorter time.

    -we wanted things easier to find, now many games even have an actual line you can follow on the ground to reach your destination.

    Yeh, and get rid of trivial, easy .. search and find things aspect of the game to focus on combat. Exactly what i like.

    -we wanted protection from gankers, now we have no PvP in open world.

    Yeh. Exactly why world pvp is not popular. But you can still go to pvp servers.

    -we wanted a safe place to PvP, now we have PvP arena's you que up for that are basically just a themepark/instance within the game that simulates an FPS battle in MMORPG form.

    And e-sport becomes popular. The most popular online game LOL, is an arena and nothing else.

    -we wanted it cheaper, now we have F2P games that require in-game micro transactions to keep up to those who do pay (yes some games aren't quite as bad as others in this sense, please, not trying to start a debate).

    Yeh .. and you cannot get cheaper than free. And you cannot get more assessible than zero commitment.

    -we wanted faster travel, no we can just teleport anywhere and the world feels small.

    And found that the world feel is not that important.

     

    Now, I know some of what I have stated appeals to some, and to others not at all, but the fact is, it just shows how divided we are. I certainly didn't ask for many of those things, but collectively "WE" as a community did. So going forward, I already know what I like and don't like. Though every game has been pretty well much the same lately, I am going to keep trying them here and there in hopes that I may find one that is actually different in some way. I really hope a Dev grows some balls, takes a gamble and tries something else. It may be something that none of us have even thought of at all!

    Yeah, you are right. There is no "we". Only many of "I". And i like msot of the stuff you posted. I am happy where MMOs are going.

    Devs have balls, what are you talking about? Blizz did LFD and LFR when all the hardcore fanboys were crying bloody murder about "community" and "socialization". They put it mutliple level of difficulties when hardcore raiders were crying "it dilute the challenge". They took a gamble and it worked beautiful. WOW became a much better game for many.

     

    Well.. it is nice if everythings has turned out that good for you. I appreciate your enjoyment in the mmos of late, and the evolution it took.

    But just sometimes, i ask myself, why do you post that much, instead of happily playing all those great games?

    I indeed know, why i post a little bit more recently.. and it is much more the lack of good games at the moment, albeit i enjoy at the moment a few games like xcom, civilization, chivalry and football manager... just not a lot of mmos.

    But i hope you get it, that not everyone is the same, and we all have different tastes. And that there is some money to make to satisfy an unsatisfied taste. Yours is obviously not unstatisfied.. mine and from a few others indeed is.

    And it really would be a shame if every game released would be the same...

     

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by revy66
    Man...sorry to hear there are so many misinformed people that have not experienced a sandbox mmo....In EVE there is in fact a story. It is the one that is created by the players and you can make your own in it. This is what a story is like in a sandbox mmo.

    i dont think OP is that mis-informed.  he'd rather be told a story then make one.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Chasing the assumed money stream of the themepark hasn't worked well for most companies so the argument of "sandboxes won't have the $$$" isn't much of an argument anymore. The industry is changing and has already quite a bit. The market is now saturated with themeparks, a lot of them with F2P options, which is leaving many companies in the cold due to musical MMOs. My hard drive does kind of resemble a console system with the amount of games I can play at any time.

    The only "proof" I need that MMOs should have more sand is the fact that a major company is staking their franchise name on it. They even flushed money in order to go back and change it. I'm not sure what else needs to be seen.
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Problem is many dont know the difference between mmo's and mog's, sandbox and themepark, and are unaware of so many features mmo's use to have. As an older gamer i feel the industry has been dumbed down because you are getting less. Story lines only get you so far. Then you are stuck with either dailies, raids, or warzones for end content and i am not happy with that.

    Sandboxes offer tons more to do and there is no end game. Most the great times i have had in sandboxes came from player content. Many creative people out there.

    Lot of misconceptions about sandboxes also hurt their chances. But more sandboxes are on the way than the past 10-15 years combined. So yes things are changing, and yes people will get a dose of sandbox love to try out.

    Major misconception that hurt sandboxes :

    open world pvp

    full loot pvp

    10-20 minute wait time to travel

    too complex

    no story line

    not casual (lol)

     

    Maybe one or two games have some of this, but not all. The problem is there are not enough sandboxes out there for the masses to explore. Once more come out and people get a choice it may spark a lot of intrest. Then players will have a real choice, just like sandboxes give you a choice in game ;)

     

     

     

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    That is the problem. Most players can't create anything interesting.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?

    "And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?"

    lol is this seriously your come back? Right back at you. You can never give an opinion on this board any longer unless you've developed an MMO.

    "And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?"

    The blank world IS the attraction. You get to build cities and dungeons etc. You get to actually have an impact on the world. Build a city. Fight to keep that city safe. Craft items. Have a shop in town. Create a mage tower for training. People love doing that stuff. Look at minecraft. Most searched game on youtube for a long, long time now. Last I checked it was getting 14 million searches per month whereas COD4 was getting about 3 million.

    Best part is you don't have to spend a lot of time creating content. You can put all that extra time into creating bad-ass systems for people to build with.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    Um, ever heard of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies? They weren't blank but they had fanstastic systems such as housing and crafting.

    I understand your aversion to sandbox games but sometimes it seems you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nethervoid
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    That is the problem. Most players can't create anything interesting.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?

    "And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?"

    lol is this seriously your come back? Right back at you. You can never give an opinion on this board any longer unless you've developed an MMO.

    "And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?"

    The blank world IS the attraction. You get to build cities and dungeons etc. You get to actually have an impact on the world. Build a city. Fight to keep that city safe. Craft items. Have a shop in town. Create a mage tower for training. People love doing that stuff. Look at minecraft. Most searched game on youtube for a long, long time now. Last I checked it was getting 14 million searches per month whereas COD4 was getting about 3 million.

    Best part is you don't have to spend a lot of time creating content. You can put all that extra time into creating bad-ass systems for people to build with.

    Problem is people are getting less smart and their creativity is suffering. Studies (u can google) have proven this. When growing up we had to use our imagination, go outside and find things to do. Now days everything is hand fed to you, and sit at home on the consoles. There is a huge difference from then til now.

    They dont want to create anything, just have it thrown in their laps. They dont want to walk to explore, they want the content to come to them. They dont want to craft an item or pay for it, they want to loot it. and you could go on from there. Why i have always said mmo's today feel like console rpgs of yesterday.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by madazz
    [mod edit]

     Um no.  I don't think he has ever said once that a game should be made a certain way, ever.

    He has only ever stated what he likes and why he likes it.

    He has consistently told people that believe a game should be made a certain way that they are wrong, a game does not have to be a certain way.

    Therefore he is actually less selfish than people who people an MMO has only one definition and needs to stick to it for any kind of value. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    [mod edit]

     Um no.  I don't think he has ever said once that a game should be made a certain way, ever.

    He has only ever stated what he likes and why he likes it.

    He has consistently told people that believe a game should be made a certain way that they are wrong, a game does not have to be a certain way.

    Therefore he is actually less selfish than people who people an MMO has only one definition and needs to stick to it for any kind of value. 

    [mod edit]

     I think I've read all his responses.

    Typically it goes this way.  A poster will say a game should be like this and he says why?

    A poster will say this game needs this and he says why?

    He has never said a game or MMO should be of any particular design.  I don't feel he thinks games should be one way, in fact he has stated numerous times that they can and should be multiple ways however he has also stated the type of games he LIKES.  Never stated they SHOULD be that way.  Has consistently asked WHY they should be that way.

    So yes.  He is less selfish because the doesn't feel that they should be just one way as you imply.  He consistently argues against people who say they should be one way.

    Again the biggest question he always asks is "Why"  Why should they be made that way.  He often says most people won't enjoy it, but he consistenly goes against people stating a game should be a certain way. 

    Anyone saying a game should be a certain way is selfish.  He argues against that therefore he is less selfish than those others.

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by nethervoid
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    That is the problem. Most players can't create anything interesting.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?

    "And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?"

    lol is this seriously your come back? Right back at you. You can never give an opinion on this board any longer unless you've developed an MMO.

    "And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?"

    The blank world IS the attraction. You get to build cities and dungeons etc. You get to actually have an impact on the world. Build a city. Fight to keep that city safe. Craft items. Have a shop in town. Create a mage tower for training. People love doing that stuff. Look at minecraft. Most searched game on youtube for a long, long time now. Last I checked it was getting 14 million searches per month whereas COD4 was getting about 3 million.

    Best part is you don't have to spend a lot of time creating content. You can put all that extra time into creating bad-ass systems for people to build with.

    Problem is people are getting less smart and their creativity is suffering. Studies (u can google) have proven this. When growing up we had to use our imagination, go outside and find things to do. Now days everything is hand fed to you, and sit at home on the consoles. There is a huge difference from then til now.

    They dont want to create anything, just have it thrown in their laps. They dont want to walk to explore, they want the content to come to them. They dont want to craft an item or pay for it, they want to loot it. and you could go on from there. Why i have always said mmo's today feel like console rpgs of yesterday.

    I agree people are getting seriously lazy with all the instant everything now days, but I still think the game could thrive. The real tricky part would be enabling people to do awesome stuff, but not have some super insane grind to get it to work. I think if you have some soft progression in the game for things it can work.

    Take travel for example. When you first log in you'll have to walk. Eventually with enough gold or if your character can tame horses you use a horse. Then maybe when you master some travel spells (if you spend time studying magic) you can do some limited teleportation. Maybe at super end game, you could become a lich, and while you have some uber draw backs (would have to make up some) you would have some serious travel powers.

    But I think it would be a lot of fun to have a game release an expansion pack that adds no content other than new systems for people to screw around with. Like the lich system would probably be something added in an xpac.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    [mod edit]

     Um no.  I don't think he has ever said once that a game should be made a certain way, ever.

    He has only ever stated what he likes and why he likes it.

    He has consistently told people that believe a game should be made a certain way that they are wrong, a game does not have to be a certain way.

    Therefore he is actually less selfish than people who people an MMO has only one definition and needs to stick to it for any kind of value. 

    [mod edit]

     I think I've read all his responses.

    Typically it goes this way.  A poster will say a game should be like this and he says why?

    A poster will say this game needs this and he says why?

    He has never said a game or MMO should be of any particular design.  I don't feel he thinks games should be one way, in fact he has stated numerous times that they can and should be multiple ways however he has also stated the type of games he LIKES.  Never stated they SHOULD be that way.  Has consistently asked WHY they should be that way.

    So yes.  He is less selfish because the doesn't feel that they should be just one way as you imply.  He consistently argues against people who say they should be one way.

    Again the biggest question he always asks is "Why"  Why should they be made that way.  He often says most people won't enjoy it, but he consistenly goes against people stating a game should be a certain way. 

    Anyone saying a game should be a certain way is selfish.  He argues against that therefore he is less selfish than those others.

     

    Read his posts and come back.

     I regularly read these boards and thus his posts.

    Actually I find you are arguing far more than he is stating that games should be a certain way.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by nethervoid
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Designing a sandbox is really quite easy. All you have to do is create a blank world and systems where players can create things in the world. Then sit back and watch.

    It really is that easy.

    That is the problem. Most players can't create anything interesting.

    And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?

    And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?

    "And you sound like "creating a blank world and systems" is easy. Why don't you show us how it is done?"

    lol is this seriously your come back? Right back at you. You can never give an opinion on this board any longer unless you've developed an MMO.

    "And how do you attract anyone to "a blank world"?"

    The blank world IS the attraction. You get to build cities and dungeons etc. You get to actually have an impact on the world. Build a city. Fight to keep that city safe. Craft items. Have a shop in town. Create a mage tower for training. People love doing that stuff. Look at minecraft. Most searched game on youtube for a long, long time now. Last I checked it was getting 14 million searches per month whereas COD4 was getting about 3 million.

    Best part is you don't have to spend a lot of time creating content. You can put all that extra time into creating bad-ass systems for people to build with.

    Problem is people are getting less smart and their creativity is suffering. Studies (u can google) have proven this. When growing up we had to use our imagination, go outside and find things to do. Now days everything is hand fed to you, and sit at home on the consoles. There is a huge difference from then til now.

    They dont want to create anything, just have it thrown in their laps. They dont want to walk to explore, they want the content to come to them. They dont want to craft an item or pay for it, they want to loot it. and you could go on from there. Why i have always said mmo's today feel like console rpgs of yesterday.

    Yeh .. because that is how many wants their entertainment. There is a reason why console RPG is what they are today. There is a reason why MMO are what they are today. You are stating the reason.

    But why is this a "problem"? I enjoy movies. I don't see why i should be creative and make one. Professional devs, artists, writeres have much better imagination than us. We are better at our own jobs. That is the perfect example of division of labor. Let the pro make the games, and we should just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by madazz
    [mod edit]

     Um no.  I don't think he has ever said once that a game should be made a certain way, ever.

    He has only ever stated what he likes and why he likes it.

    He has consistently told people that believe a game should be made a certain way that they are wrong, a game does not have to be a certain way.

    Therefore he is actually less selfish than people who people an MMO has only one definition and needs to stick to it for any kind of value. 

    [mod edit]

     I think I've read all his responses.

    Typically it goes this way.  A poster will say a game should be like this and he says why?

    A poster will say this game needs this and he says why?

    He has never said a game or MMO should be of any particular design.  I don't feel he thinks games should be one way, in fact he has stated numerous times that they can and should be multiple ways however he has also stated the type of games he LIKES.  Never stated they SHOULD be that way.  Has consistently asked WHY they should be that way.

    So yes.  He is less selfish because the doesn't feel that they should be just one way as you imply.  He consistently argues against people who say they should be one way.

    Again the biggest question he always asks is "Why"  Why should they be made that way.  He often says most people won't enjoy it, but he consistenly goes against people stating a game should be a certain way. 

    Anyone saying a game should be a certain way is selfish.  He argues against that therefore he is less selfish than those others.

     

    Read his posts and come back.

     I regularly read these boards and thus his posts.

    Actually I find you are arguing far more than he is stating that games should be a certain way.

    Yeah, he is putting words into my mouth. Let me be very clear about my position.

    1) I like game certain ways (which i am not going to repeat), and I am not shy about it. D3 is the game i enjoyed most in the past few years.

    2) I don't think *all* games should be made in the way i like. Very simply, i don't have the time to play so many games anyway. So what do i care if some are made not for me?

    3) I do enjoy multiple game types (action combat focus, stealth ...) .. just not boring 20 min boat ride virtual worlds. Heck, how can anyone say i want games to be all the same when i enjoy D3, and WOT, and Dishonored, which are totally different types of games?

    4) Some of the virtual world MMOs fans are too narrow minded, and dismiss new and different gameplay style like lobby and arenas. Not all MMOs need a virtual world.

     

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Yeah, he is putting words into my mouth. Let me be very clear about my position.

    1) I like game certain ways (which i am not going to repeat), and I am not shy about it. D3 is the game i enjoyed most in the past few years.

    2) I don't think *all* games should be made in the way i like. Very simply, i don't have the time to play so many games anyway. So what do i care if some are made not for me?

    3) I do enjoy multiple game types (action combat focus, stealth ...) .. just not boring 20 min boat ride virtual worlds. Heck, how can anyone say i want games to be all the same when i enjoy D3, and WOT, and Dishonored, which are totally different types of games?

    4) Some of the virtual world MMOs fans are too narrow minded, and dismiss new and different gameplay style like lobby and arenas. Not all MMOs need a virtual world.

     

    I think the point most people would make about 4 is those are not really MMOs. If they have a lobby and you create games of like 10 to 20 from the lobby, it's not an MMO. That's a COD style game. COD is definitely not an MMO.

    MMOs have certain traits. None of the games you mentioned I would consider MMOs, and I also play WoT. I'm not saying those games shouldn't exist, but they also are not MMOs. Those games are in different catagories with different attributes than games like UO, EQ, EVE, SWTOR, WoW, etc.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nethervoid
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Yeah, he is putting words into my mouth. Let me be very clear about my position.

    1) I like game certain ways (which i am not going to repeat), and I am not shy about it. D3 is the game i enjoyed most in the past few years.

    2) I don't think *all* games should be made in the way i like. Very simply, i don't have the time to play so many games anyway. So what do i care if some are made not for me?

    3) I do enjoy multiple game types (action combat focus, stealth ...) .. just not boring 20 min boat ride virtual worlds. Heck, how can anyone say i want games to be all the same when i enjoy D3, and WOT, and Dishonored, which are totally different types of games?

    4) Some of the virtual world MMOs fans are too narrow minded, and dismiss new and different gameplay style like lobby and arenas. Not all MMOs need a virtual world.

     

    I think the point most people would make about 4 is those are not really MMOs. If they have a lobby and you create games of like 10 to 20 from the lobby, it's not an MMO. That's a COD style game. COD is definitely not an MMO.

    MMOs have certain traits. None of the games you mentioned I would consider MMOs, and I also play WoT. I'm not saying those games shouldn't exist, but they also are not MMOs. Those games are in different catagories with different attributes than games like UO, EQ, EVE, SWTOR, WoW, etc.

    I love how it's a thread about sandboxes for people who want to play them, and he comes in and states some of us are too narrow minded and that we should not dismiss lobby's and arenas. Problem is, Lobbys and Areans do not go with sandboxes! He wants a different game. Nothing wrong with that. But it goes against what this entire thread is about.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    People can argue here all they want for the game they think should be made. Fact is there are people deciding the fate of millions of dollars and they get to make the actual decision because their company and livelihood depend on it.

    The "facts" are in plain sight. Sandbox "ish" games are coming because the themepark well has run dry. There are many shades of gray though when you speak of MMO features and labels. Just be happy that companies are still willing to make new MMOs despite the dismal state of their sales as of late. Thank WoW as well, if it wasn't for thier large, steady numbers many companies may have packed up thier unknown project. I'm sure some have already.
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