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FFXIV ARR, another WoW clone
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Now, let's see how far you'll move the goal-posts and revise your arguments this time...
Everything I say about FFXI is pre WoW influence (ToAU). This thread has went from ARR to 1.0 and now to FFXI. Amazing.
Your argument was that FFXI was a WoW clone because "Paladins could heal and do damage in FFXI." I pointed out that it was insignifiant damage. What did I change the goal to? It's the same argument. I never said FFXI was a WoW clone and I don't know why you are brining it up. The classes in FFXI and FFXIV are completely different. I have no clue why you are brining up FFXI or 1.0 in a thread devoted to ARR. ARR classes are very comparable to WoW. The roles of classes, damage dealers or otherwise, has everything to do with it.
A DRG/WAR and DRG/SAM are both still ONLY damage dealers. They both can not take damage at all in a party. They both do not heal in a party. A DRG/WHM could only solo and it would be a great struggle for him to solo. Dragoon is one of the more flexible classes in that regard. Almost every other class is even more limited than that. In WoW the different talent tree builds allows for the same class to fulfill different roles in a party or solo. The same class may deal dps, nuke, do crowd control, and be able to take a certain number of hits once they get aggro. In FFXI a blm that go aggro in a big fight would go down in 3 hits. He would not do crowd control. The fact that the BLM subbed WHM would not matter. A different build in WoW would matter in terms of which of the roles the player was performing more of. He would still be performing all of them to some degree. The subjob for the BLM would not change his role at all.
Wow, you have to run to a place before you can teleport to it indefinitely for the rest of your gaming career. Running to these places take 10 minutes tops. You can farm the money to ride an airship in 5 minutes or less. Anima replinishes plenty fast. You said that nothing was handed out in FFXIV. It does not get easier than that.
The developers have said that WoW is having the biggest influemnce on FFXIV. What else is there to know?
http://absoluteretribution.enjin.com/ Guild Website and Recruitment link
I hate WoW
I think people were smarter before it came out.
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Well, you can't deny they are drawing inspiration from World of Warcraft, but what I dislike about companies that try to capture the lightning in the bottle of WoW's beastly subscription #'s is Blizzard had a HUGE following before world of warcraft came out, you had Diablo Warcraft and Starcraft; and all 3 of those games are still MASSIVE today; and granted not 100% of the audiences in those games came to world of warcraft but a humongous chunk did. Then you got to think people that were playing other mmo's at the time who were getting burnt out of those respective mmo's, a few I can think of were Everquest, SWG (pre-cu), FFXI and Ultima Online. (I was playing SWG and Ultima at the time WoW came out). The pr was massive for this game; and everybody that was interested in playing the game on their own merits was telling everybody they played these other games about it.. People lined up like animals to play this game; I passed on it because it just looked stupid to me. Granted the tiny crappy graphics of ultima could not stand up to the fully 3-d polygonal graphics of WoW but I was already established in UO and never cared for bulky polygonal shapes and sizes. It was a couple months down the road before I caved in and bought WoW, and only at the request of many turn coats from my previous mmo friends.
For many WoW was the first mmo they tried; alot of that bulk crowd never played UO or heard of Star Wars galaxies and many were in odd parts of the world that were never viewed as a serious market before somebody with the commercial power of Blizard came along and started viewing those remote areas as a serious business potential. For some WoW was just the next best thing, and for others WoW became the standard by which all other games must be held. To me, it was just a bunch of whiny elitists that couldn't stand the thought of not having the absolute best of everything as quickly as possible despite nobody really knowing anything about the game aside from it was steeped in terrible lore and free of alot of micromanaging associated with other MMO's of the time. Despite this, tons flocked to the game, the launch was somewhat of a disaster in the sense of commodity though; not enough games were shipped; log in servers were bogged down with enourmouse queue times (I personally waited on one occassion 1 hour and 47 minutes just to log in with average wait times of 40-47 minutes and keep in mind this was several months after the game launched; and I did visit a friend on occassions and watched him watch a queue screen like a hawk more than a few times prior to my personal purchase of the game. Tichondrius Server) latency and rubber banding of epic proportions and many many crashes to desktop (though these issues were acknowledged and somewhat improved upon on a nearly hourly basis). The game however was unimaginably commerically successful, and there is no disproving that. If you were to take a game though and release it today with some of the same issues that plagued World of Warcrafts' launch and your gameplay was ridden with terrible controls a horrible UI (which that is 1 thing I liked about WoW, but dislike that it is basically copy and pasted ad nauseum by almost every mmo after it. SWG had a nice hotbar system too, but other parts of that game were just so unrefined it was terrible at times), very difficult in game commerce and bland content; you'd be laughed right off the market much like FFXIV was and many other games that adopt either free to play models or just flop all around. It takes a seriously determined group to drag their stuff out of the fire though, and that's what Square Enix is doing and grabbing inspiration from successful mmo's particularly WoW.
One of the most imporant things though is that Blizzard didn't just make an MMO; they were a wildly successful game developer before that time. One could argue that "It's Final Fantasy" or Square Enix, the name is synonomous with RPG. Ok. What people tend to forget is how divided just the base following of Final Fantasy is and how many reject or fail to accept some of the more recent or past Final Fantasy titles. There are those that claim FFIV is the last great Final Fantasy; others will die before giving up convincing you FFXIII is the RPG that surpasses all others and itself will never EVER be surpassed and you're all LAWLWLWALWLAWWL nubs for thiking otherwise XOXOXOXOXOXO
. Then you got people that thought both of those games sucked ass and hope both previous groups burn in a chemical fire and need to realize Final Fantasy Tactics is the only Final Fantasy game worth anything. Omg, then there's Final Fantasy XI (which I played a crap ton of myself and enjoyed very much until they lurched into Abyssea and even early Abyssea was entertaining for me). But the divisiveness is there and it's almost a harmful infighting that goes on over which Final Fantasy rules supreme over them all. Another issue is how many of these people were recommending this game to eachother through all this infighting? Not many.. and those that did pick the game up saw the game was terribly executed and poorly managed with bad mistake after mistake made during development stages. This is not even to mention the near racist stance players from different nationalities have towards eachother in this game. Granted I skipped on buying this hunk of hot mess when it came out; but I talked to a few that bought it and they mention this particular aspect more often than other issues that I have mentioned. Granted people who challenge developers or eachother are a boon beyond compare when it comes to designing a game, I think the level it has reached with Final Fantasy has also become it's bane.
Moving right along, the hope I personally have is that yes they do take a few inspirations from World of Warcraft, namely the ease of accessibility; hoping into parties has almost become the "in thing" for games of a MMO nature. Another aspect they need to not skimp on is the ability to be able to glean meaningful outcomes in a short visit to the game without making grouping obsolete. That crafting isn't just a thing on the side that just tides you over until you get a nice drop from a Notorious monster (no mmo I have ever played does the crafting right anymore.. UO Did.. Keyword.. did I will also add I am not the definitive source of crafting isn't done right or not, but personally from the slew of MMO's I've played and rather deeply I make this judgement.); but neither should be superior to the other or perhaps one method of obtaining top tier items yields certain pieces of armor the other method does not offer such as boots and body armors come from crafting.. gloves and capes come from NM's. Who knows? But stop fucking over crafting, seriously. Another thing I hope they take seriously are the introduction of some of the other Final Fantasy races. I've read that Viera may soon be a possiblity; can we hope to see Bangaa or Seeq? Moogles? (I'd totally be a moogle) And for all that's holy and right, not Moombas from FFVIII.
The races I believe could help bring together people from previous Final Fantasy games that may have not been previously interested in the Final Fantasy MMORPG offerings. Why a Taru Taru? Who thought up Elvaans or Galka? What games did these mother fuckers come from!?! Slide in some other race types; Moogles, Espers, Sasquatch anyone!? Add in a few factions that people are interested in. Magitech Knights (I believe the magitech armor is a mount in game for some people), the Judges in some incarnation or another; or get stupid and introduce the Cult of Kefka (ok maybe not); but draw on your previous inspirations as well as invigorate the genre with new fresh ideas. Don't just shit out things without seriously thinking it through.. there are reasons some ideas and systems are not introduced in mmo's and why lots of those ideas that are brought into the market fall flat on their face in execution. I could go on and on; just like most people who have hopes and dreams for this game to be successful can and do; but I hope they don't overlook the real reasons why WoW is as popular as it is (which literally has very little to do with WoW itself).
maybe they meant from a marketing standpoint, not basic on game play?
i see the game play of
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
and it's nothing like wow.
but hey everyone has there own opinion on that.
I have no idea where that came from because i have been an avid FF gamer for many years and i have never heard that kind of comment before.The only game that truly copied EQ about 90% so, was Wow not FFXi.
This statement is actually in the PRESENT not in the past as they have definitely tried to take some WOw ideas and put them into both FFXI and FFXIV.
In FFXI the dailies were redesgined as book burns and in FFXIV they were redesigned as Leves and imo LEves are even worse because you can warp right to the quest and back upon completion.
The original FFXI was 99% all Tanaka ,he made the decisions and the design was his aside from the musical score and of course some sounds,textures ect ,the things the director would not be too involved in.
Yoshida making the claim of copying WOW is shown absolutely nowhere in the original FFXI as it is truly the one of a kind RPG that is different from the status quo that is EQ.
FFXI used NO markers anywhere in game,all other games do.FFXI gives no xp for quests,all other games do,that alone shows it was NOT an EQ clone.It is only recently that Square Enix has lost it's marbles on game design.They even began to copy other developers in releasing unfinishjed content,it really pissed me off watching the greatest developer go south with the rest.
Square Enix began to go downhill during the Wings of Goddess xpac,there was some potential there but also some lazy cheap work.
I am looking outside North America for the next best game.Jake Song will give us a decent effort but still not the game i am looking for.I want to see another effort that early FFXI showed me,a game that does not copy everyone else.
To show hoe clueless Square Enix is,their Abyssea idea was an absolute terrible decision ,yet the yhave continued to follow that route and are abotu to release another Abyssea xpac.Cheap lazy effert just rehashing the same idea for 4 straight xpacs now.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Who's comment are you referring to?
Ah, sounds like you don't like things that are popular mostly due to its popularity.
You've failed to convince anyone that this is a "WoW clone" and you've also failed to convince anyone that being a "WoW clone" is utterly fail.
You give exmaples like "Wow has hybrids" Whats a Scholar in FFXI? Whats a Warrior? It can tank AND DPS. Whats a Monk? Same thing.
EQ had hybrids. FFXI and Wow were both influenced by EQ.
WoW did not invent hybridization. Nor does hybrid character roles ruin mmos.
We get it, you are unhappy. I think this has gone on long enough.
Edit: Wizardry its a well known fact FFXI was based around EQ. Very well known fact.
lol, is not even close to be a WoW clone, who made this thread?
MMORPG = WoW clone or what?
I didn't set out to concinve anyone of anything. If someone did not know if before I said it then they never will. A scholar is a hybrid in FFXI and it was introduced post WoW influence. A warrior will not tank in old school FFXI after level 20. A Monk could not tank... EQ did have hybrids but they were not as ubiquitous as they are today. EQ probably had more hybrids than any other MMO during its day. The hybrids that it did have, bard, paladin, shadowknight, and ranger mostly operated differently than WoW hybrids. For example, a ranger was mostly DPS since its healing and tanking was VERY limited. If this ranger was in WoW it would see a massive expansion of its healing and tanking abilities. WoW did not invent hybrids but it did take them to a new level. If everyone is a hybrid then there is no point in having classes. If there are no classes then there does not need to be parties for traditional reasons. The reasons to have parties now are just to do endgame content. I am unhappy.
They were slammed by critics the first time because "being original" meant having a non-working UI and no jump and zero content outside of levequests and 10 story quests.
So, no, the game didn't fail because it was "original" or "non-WoW". It failed because it just sucked.
If you wanna beat the competition you need to do what they already do... better!
...and of course allow me to jump!
Wow. Who didn't see this post coming? Show of hands...anyone?....anyone?...Bueller?...Bueller?
Every mmo that has come out since WoW gets hit with this tag. If every game was a clone of WoW, by now we'd have nothing left but a demographic of retarded trolls that suck at playing anything challenging, that destroy games one at a time in forums because they don't play exactly like their carebear joke of a game...wait...
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Umm... I think you need to re-read his post, because you just completely skipped over two major things he pointed out.
If you notice the bits I highlighted in each of your posts, you'll notice he mentions 4 different things. You acknowledge only two, and then characterize it as him noting "just" the UI and no jump - even though he clearly noted more than that. I'm not sure if it's cherry-picking, a strawman, or just plain poor reading comprehension, but what you did there is a textbook perfect example of something.
What's even more interesting is how, even after ignoring their mention of levequests, you turn around and bring it back into the discussion - albeit from a different angle.
FFXIV 1.0 failed for a number of reasons...
1. The UI was laggy/slow and required entirely too many button clicks to get even the simplest tasks completed.
2. The engine was an absolute dog, and ran like utter crap on even high end-machines
3. Levequests were (initially anyway) the only significantly available content in the game, and they were poorly and lazily implemented (nothing but a bunch of repetitive "kill x of y" type quest - which people did not enjoy. Aside from that, many of them were poorly planned and designed.
4. I don't believe the lack of jump did turned away so many people as folks assume. People complained about it, but ultimately kept playing. I chalk the whole "people quit because of no jumping" up to hyperbole. I could believe it was "a straw that broke the camel's back", on top of numerous other issues. But I don't believe "no jumping" by itself was *the* deal breaker on its own. There's too many wildly successful games out there without jump that people are just fine with - so clearly it's not a "mandatory" part of a game experience as people make it sound. It's just selective arguing.
5. Limited story content, whether main storyline or side-quests, as was pointed out.
6. The notoriously bad "copy-pasta'd" terrain everywhere.
7. Limited environments to explore in, making the "copy pasta" thing even worse because there were so few different environment types to begin with.
8. At the beginning there was the "fatigue" system (can only level a given class for so long before xp would slow down and eventually stop completely before having to be given time to "reset" by switching to another class). People did not like this.
9. The Market Wards were an absolute train-wreck in every way. Unstable, unintuitive, poorly planned, poorly organized, and on and on. With the slow/kludgy UI, it made even *finding* an item you wanted a ridiculous endeavor, nevermind buying it.
10. No chocobos at launch, which meant a *lot* more running on foot for a far longer period of time than should have ever happened. In FFXI, you got a chocobo by level 20 and then you could go anywhere on foot by riding one, which sped things up a lot. In FFXIV, you could get to level 40 and still be running on foot, for very long distances.
11. Gathering and how to actually gather with each was poorly explained and too tedious for many people. I'm all for mini-game type activities over the "click and profit" approach... but XIV's implementation was just horrid to me.
And on and on...
Also have to remember, that not every single person held every single thing as "an issue" or as a "deal breaker". I remember people arguing in favor of the market wards, feeling they just needed to be "tweaked a little". People loved the fatigue system... and so on. So depending on who you ask, you're going to get a different spread of "reasons FFXIV failed for them", and they're going to rank various issues differently than others.
Overall though, FFXIV tanked for all those reasons, not just "this or that one that happened to be an issue with me".
How can you call not having the ability to jump original? It's more like a worthless feature most mmos have. Just because it is left out of a game doesn't make that game original. The UI was worthless..... Content was not developed. How is any of that "original?" Doesn't being original impy that their was some kind of effort directed at making a meaningful difference? If they wanted to be original then they could have made concrete classes, since every mmo now is going towards "classless" system or hybrids. If they wanted to be original they could have done away with instances, since most all MMOs have instances. If they wanted to be original they could have made the game hard, since most MMOs are pieces of cake.
The same people right now who whine about "WoW clones" were the same ones complaining that GW2 was too different from WoW. Try not to give these worthless trolls the attention they hunger for.
I think we need to make distinctions between "industry standards" and "wow clones."
Allods online was a WoW clone. The combat, the art style, game mechanics were literally identical to WoW.
Games like Rift, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Aion, etc adopted some of the styles from WoW because it had become a standard in the mmo genre based on WoW meteoric popularity. You had more people who played WoW as their first mmo and only mmo before going onto other games. When other games did not have some of the same features, people could not adjust and they would abandon.
Having a responsive UI and Combat does not make a game a clone of WoW. Would you want ot play a game that is LESS responsive than WoW. If you make a game as or more responsive, you're giving people reasons to play your game.... you're not becomming a WoW clone.
I understand that the biggest issue is the "Quest Hub" model that has been adopted, but that has exited in mmos before and after WoW. Wow popularized it. To say that a game incorporating quest hubs is a WoW clone is factually erroneous given the history of mmos. It is also factually erroneous when it comes to FFXIV. I played FFXIV up to and until the servers shut down. I started playing again the day Yoshi-P took over.
Before FFXIV 1.0 came out, they asked Tanaka (the old producer, now fired/"left for health reasons") what other mmo's he played to model FFXIV after.... he laughed and said, only FFXI. So when he made assanine comments that he wanted to make FFXIV as popular as WoW, in hindsight, we see how completely clueless Tanaka was. Fast forward to Yoshi-P who understands that certain things within a genre become the STANDARD. Before you can branch out and make something new and wonderful, you need a SOLID FOUNDATION (fast, responsive ui and combat, for example).
Long story short, if you were to tell me 2 years ago that FFXIV can become as function and responsive as WoW, but in a Final Fantasy universe, with unique story telling and a fan service component, I would have said "That's what FFXIV should have been before it was released!"
All that Yoshi-P is doing is bringing FFXIV to modern standards before he can put on his own unique stamp. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that Yoshi-P is asking his developers to play other modern games and decide what, if any components, should also be incorporated intot he game. Don't you guys want your game to evolve? The FATE system seems to be a modified version of Dynmaic Events in GW2. This is something to be optimistic about, not ring the alarm that FFXIV is just another clone of "X" (insert game).
Edit: I have more than a dozen friends from my linkshell who played Alpha. Almost universally they LOVED it. I am reserving judgment until I play it in Beta. As a legacy member, I will starting mid February. The only game breaker for me is boring combat. If the combat is slower but very deep and tactical... that's well within the Final Fantasy history and tradition. Fine by me.
Well not completely but for the most part possibly. lol As far as the everyone else, you either play it or don't. That is the simple fact that it comes down to. You can have you opinion on how long you think it is going to last/ how well it is going to do as well. I know for one that I am super @!!%$^$^! pumped about it and will be bringing my friends in to play with me. I loved XI and it will always be my favorite MMO. I am not psychic by any means but I think I am going to like ARR.
God bless you and AMEN.
In my opinion, game sucks.
Severe graphics downgrade (my compairson screenshots from Version 1 compared with alpha got the thread deleted last time so i wont repost) . It's really sad to see such nice places become so uglified. Many people in alpha forums were reiterating this point.
Also, in ARR, you just do quest-spam, and the quests are pretty unremarkable. You can basically play the whole game from your minimap. Not that you'd be missing much, considering the graphics now.
Combat is boring (general cooldowns, and little strategy). Doubt anyone will really find it very entertaining unless it's the only MMO they ever played.
Animations suuuuck. Both the movement animations and also the overly flashy spell animations. You shoot your bow and it turns into a fireworks display which obscures your entire screen. So random.
Invisible walls everywhere. I keep thinking "why is THAT an invisible? I could easily jump that." They're literally everywhere. Also, jump is the most spastic looking thing you'll ever see. It's like a really fast-paced squatting animation which occurs while you levitate.
Oh yeah, and there's excessive zone lines everywhere. Why is a town split into two zones now for no reason? If they're going to downgrade all the textures, shouldn't that allow them to actually increase the zone size? Not split it up into 1/100th of its size. It's not necessarily a bad thing except for the fact they advertise zone borders now with heinous blue blinking lights. Lol, it looks like a landing strip at an airport.
And the tone of the game is also off. They were trying to make it feel like a Final Fantasy. But actually, Version 1 felt more like a Final Fantasy than this does. A realm Reborn just feels... so... childish. Everyone starts off in a cosplay outfit (replete with schoolgirl skirt). In version one, you started out in class-specific gear which actually was relevant to the artistic integrity of the gameworld. But now, nope, you're just a schoolgirl in a red and white miniskirt for no reason. No reason!
It's like S.E. will just stop at nothing to feed people random shit in order to make the game "feel more FF". Yet it turns out the other way. The game feels like a cartoon.
Only good thing I can even say about the game is that responsiveness improved. But only compared to the original game. Compared to any normal MMO, it's standard.
So Bravo, they ruined many good things about the original, and improved one thing basically. Two years and 250 staff members well spent?