Originally posted by nethervoid It's funny how a game like UO can be so friggin awesome and published by a pretty small company and budget, but new MMOs can't seem to grasp what made that game a blast. It's only been 15 years guys. You figured it out yet?
That is a pretty sad but true statement. I don't think the big developers could create the magic that UO was because it wouldn't draw the numbers that investors are looking for.
It was made by one of the biggest developers/publishers in the world. EA owned the game from the beginning of development. EA bought Origin in 1992 and UO began devlopment in 1995 to be released in 1997.
As a side note, can you imagine a MMO developed in 2 years today?
1) I still do not know who has bid for the company. Apparently it is under the proverbial lock and key.
2) Trading for the game has come to a near halt: essentially those who own the stock and are within arm's length are scared to buy into it or sell out of it for fear of insider trading (the big stakeholders). As a consequence, volume has been cut by about 80% as of late.
3) Funcom is now trading at below cash value: 1.20 NOK per share, or approximately 20 cents U.S. per share. If all of their games are truly cashflow positive, I'm curious how much they massage the details to get above "treading water".
4) Despite these dire predictions, the 3rd quarter results will have a lot of Secret World digital sales revenue attached to it. They still at least should have turned a profit THIS quarter. Even AoC managed more millions n profit its first sales quarter.
5) Another round of layoffs is being planned, but it wont be announced till next quarter. (30-40 people expected to be let go)
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
Well i cant say i didnt see this coming. But for entirely different reasons. Funcom Staff had issues it never really addressed despite outside pressure and internal pressure to do so.
AOC fans (a lot of whom were carryovers of AO) Got a slap in the face when that game's first community director was announced. Why? He was embroiled in a not-so-secret scandel involving an RK 2 Player. Short version? Player was banned for RP for no reason. RP in anarchy online was actually one of the more serious deals, dev team, a plot line that was constructed by the storyline team and more than a few people willing to take part. When he left anarchy online a LOT of people thought 'whew' that nightmare was over...nope. It wasnt. And by the time most found out it was too late to return the games.
You grinned and beared it until you realized...just how little content there was at the upper levels, how unbalanced pvp became... It was a real disappointment to see this fall apart like it did. I dont know who's going to get it. I fully expect them to wind the house down simular to CoH. after maybe a year.
Or we could get lucky and find someone willing to bring this company back. Anarchy Online suffered possibly the worst launch in MMO history that didnt involve intentional sabotage. (We all know who i mean) It bounced back eventually and if you took the time to play it. You found an intense character generation system, Many different classes that didnt feel repetitive. A MASSIVE world that you really could explore in more than one way and a plot line most could really sink their teeth into. FC had made the claim ages ago that AO would have the AOC engine. Never happend as far as i know. Now with this it probably never will.
Staff poisoned this game, and the Head Honcho's at FC didnt do what should have been done. For whatever reason people cant comprehend firing people i guess. But at the end of the day, one of the true pure sci-fi MMO's is going to fall. Probably the last one left standing outside of EVE. (i dont think STO's gonna make it another year) We'll all be waiting for Star Citizen but I'm not holding my breath for someone to come in and put some steel in this company's spine.
Originally posted by nethervoid It's funny how a game like UO can be so friggin awesome and published by a pretty small company and budget, but new MMOs can't seem to grasp what made that game a blast. It's only been 15 years guys. You figured it out yet?
The MMO demographic back in the 90's is different than today. If someone would actually make a UO game with updated graphics it will still settle down to a niche number. You can't prevent casual jumpers from jumping games.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
Originally posted by nethervoid It's funny how a game like UO can be so friggin awesome and published by a pretty small company and budget, but new MMOs can't seem to grasp what made that game a blast. It's only been 15 years guys. You figured it out yet?
In today's market, the number of people who would play a game like UO for any period of time is laughably small (compared to numbers big hitters get). Just because you like it, doesn't mean anyone else does (I'm talking meaningful numbers here, not mmorpg.com forum-goers.
Originally posted by dimnikar In today's market, the number of people who would play a game like UO for any period of time is laughably small (compared to numbers big hitters get). Just because you like it, doesn't mean anyone else does (I'm talking meaningful numbers here, not mmorpg.com forum-goers.Making such a game is a suicidal decision.
That's the conventional wisdom, isn't it. And that's what has given us 9 years of failed WoW clones, all trying to emulate what was probably more of a fad than any revolution in good MMORPG design.
But myself, I believe a graphically updated game (world) with all the depth of UO might just be the next big hit. The true WoW killer. And the evidence I see, says, that making yet more shallow themeparks is the true suicidal decision.
BTW - Microsoft was the original backer of Turbine/Asheron's Call 1. But they pulled the plug (sold out) very early. Maybe even before the game was released? I don't know much more.
If Funcom will be bought it will be in-order to acquire their development tools and Dreamworld engine and maybe development teams, not because of Funcom's IP which are not that great comparitavely. In before "Dreamworld is not that great to make mmorpg's as AoC / TSW are zoned closed games". Well new company does not have to want make mmorpg's.
It might want in example to mass produce cheaper games like some mmo-lite games, lobby games, corpg's and so on.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
I hardly call 10-15 posts a year an obsession.
I made this account primarily to discuss Funcom.
25 post this year, all Funcom. Then you go from 2012 to 2009 without any posts. So I wouldn't say 10-15 post a year when you went 3 years without a single post.
So, if this account you created was made to primarily discuss Funcom and you took a 3 year break from saying anything does that mean you have another account to primarily discuss other things? Or are you just hear to complain every year something doesn't go your way?
The Secret World is not a bad game. Personally for me and many other it is the first MMO in years to capture the imagintion of the MMO genre again. Something I have not felt since early WoW, Tabula Rasa or many other MMOs that had potential.
If Funcom is being sold I was be very dissapointed. They have kept their promise to update their game every month even when they laid off 50% of their staff. If the content they release in the coming year is good they could possibly have an EVE affect where they have a small, supporting and vocal community that will recruit players in a steady fashion. It is still possible.
Took EVE years to come to what it is now. Maybe TSW will be the next niche "hit"
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
It was over for UO when they released Renaissance, the second expansion. Trammel killed UO.
this is the truth.
the missing link in a chain of destruction.
All spelling and typographical errors are based soely on the fact that i just dont care. If you must point out my lack of atention to detail, please do it with a smile.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
I hardly call 10-15 posts a year an obsession.
I made this account primarily to discuss Funcom.
In other words 'this is my sock puppet FC bashing account. Now i will log on to my regular account to to do what ever it is that i do on this website'.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
I hardly call 10-15 posts a year an obsession.
I made this account primarily to discuss Funcom.
In other words 'this is my sock puppet FC bashing account. Now i will log on to my regular account to to do what ever it is that i do on this website'.
Got it.
OP got "burned" by AOC and has had it hard for Funcom ever since. Sad really.
Originally posted by MMOExposed darnit already, when will we find out who got it?
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
I hardly call 10-15 posts a year an obsession.
I made this account primarily to discuss Funcom.
Giving credit where credit is due... you have been right with most of your posts and predictions about Funcom. I remmeber them from months ago in the TSW forums. But as official "bearer of bad news" you shouldn't be surprised fans like to take shots at you. It's right there in the "messenger" job description
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
at the moment there aren't many companies which might be interested in buying funcom ...
ncsoft just released gw2 and blade&soul (asia) and has wildstar aswell as archeage in their sleeves. ea does have enough financial problems of their own. prosiebensat1 does have the money, but they are not interested in development. trion worlds inc could easily get the money from their investors, but why should they bother with tsw or aoc? activision/blizzard, well if they hadn't a gold shitting donkey named world of warcraft they would have the same financial problems ea does have atm. gameforge/frogster, gamigo, gpotato, alaplaya and all the other low budget f2p puplishers .... very unlikely, don't you think too? in my opinion only three possible buyers: 1) nexon - always wants to expand 2) pwi/cryptic - always good for a surprise and 3) bethesda/zenimax - because it seams that they want to grow bigger.
Giving credit where credit is due... you have been right with most of your posts and predictions about Funcom. I remmeber them from months ago in the TSW forums. But as official "bearer of bad news" you shouldn't be surprised fans like to take shots at you. It's right there in the "messenger" job description
To update my thread:
#1: Funcom Q3 2012 came in: They dodge the buyout completely.
#2: They released in an indirect way The Secret World subscription numbers. 55-70k.
#3: They admit they will be cash negative for 2013.
#4: Confirm again that they are not exploring any new large-scale MMOs.
Giving credit where credit is due... you have been right with most of your posts and predictions about Funcom. I remmeber them from months ago in the TSW forums. But as official "bearer of bad news" you shouldn't be surprised fans like to take shots at you. It's right there in the "messenger" job description
To update my thread:
#1: Funcom Q3 2012 came in: They dodge the buyout completely.
#2: They released in an indirect way The Secret World subscription numbers. 55-70k.
#3: They admit they will be cash negative for 2013.
#4: Confirm again that they are not exploring any new large-scale MMOs.
TSW sub numbers ... wtf? I recall it had enough 'good' things to be at least 100k+?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by nethervoid It's funny how a game like UO can be so friggin awesome and published by a pretty small company and budget, but new MMOs can't seem to grasp what made that game a blast. It's only been 15 years guys. You figured it out yet?
In today's market, the number of people who would play a game like UO for any period of time is laughably small (compared to numbers big hitters get). Just because you like it, doesn't mean anyone else does (I'm talking meaningful numbers here, not mmorpg.com forum-goers.
Making such a game is a suicidal decision.
Which in turn leads to a logical conclusion - it doesn't need to be a triple-A multimillion dollars investment of a game. Game doesn't need to have millions of subscribers to be successful because it's all relative depending on how much was invested into it in the first place, considering running costs are practically a joke nowadays.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Giving credit where credit is due... you have been right with most of your posts and predictions about Funcom. I remmeber them from months ago in the TSW forums. But as official "bearer of bad news" you shouldn't be surprised fans like to take shots at you. It's right there in the "messenger" job description
To update my thread:
#1: Funcom Q3 2012 came in: They dodge the buyout completely.
#2: They released in an indirect way The Secret World subscription numbers. 55-70k.
#3: They admit they will be cash negative for 2013.
#4: Confirm again that they are not exploring any new large-scale MMOs.
TSW sub numbers ... wtf? I recall it had enough 'good' things to be at least 100k+?
If I had to guess, it's probably a little higher than the 55-70k but not too much because of lifetime subs, that aren't counted against the october billing, but also can't accurately say how many of them are still playing regularly.
Comments
It was made by one of the biggest developers/publishers in the world. EA owned the game from the beginning of development. EA bought Origin in 1992 and UO began devlopment in 1995 to be released in 1997.
As a side note, can you imagine a MMO developed in 2 years today?
Not only that but they were owned by EA for years before UO even began development.
Update:
1) I still do not know who has bid for the company. Apparently it is under the proverbial lock and key.
2) Trading for the game has come to a near halt: essentially those who own the stock and are within arm's length are scared to buy into it or sell out of it for fear of insider trading (the big stakeholders). As a consequence, volume has been cut by about 80% as of late.
3) Funcom is now trading at below cash value: 1.20 NOK per share, or approximately 20 cents U.S. per share. If all of their games are truly cashflow positive, I'm curious how much they massage the details to get above "treading water".
4) Despite these dire predictions, the 3rd quarter results will have a lot of Secret World digital sales revenue attached to it. They still at least should have turned a profit THIS quarter. Even AoC managed more millions n profit its first sales quarter.
5) Another round of layoffs is being planned, but it wont be announced till next quarter. (30-40 people expected to be let go)
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I don't know. I'm sure when I find out who bought it Funcom will send the Funcom police to delete my threads.
Like when:
1) They first delayed Secret World and I released ahead of time the new release date;
2) My first buyout thread (released 2 weeks before the announcement on the official investment forums;
3) CFO's resignation of AoC;
4) AoC subscription numbers that were leaked;
etc. etc.
I'm actually positvely and wholeheartedly shocked that this post did not get shut down. I guess the company has stopped caring. They used to be vigilant in hiding their dirty laundry.
However, if you ever want some real kicks, go read my February 7th, 2012 post on the stock price and the release date. They didn't catch and delete every post.
Funniest part of this whole thread in my opinion is that you over 50 posts dating back to 2009 all complaining Funcom. Damn, obsession can be a bitch sometimes.
Well i cant say i didnt see this coming. But for entirely different reasons. Funcom Staff had issues it never really addressed despite outside pressure and internal pressure to do so.
AOC fans (a lot of whom were carryovers of AO) Got a slap in the face when that game's first community director was announced. Why? He was embroiled in a not-so-secret scandel involving an RK 2 Player. Short version? Player was banned for RP for no reason. RP in anarchy online was actually one of the more serious deals, dev team, a plot line that was constructed by the storyline team and more than a few people willing to take part. When he left anarchy online a LOT of people thought 'whew' that nightmare was over...nope. It wasnt. And by the time most found out it was too late to return the games.
You grinned and beared it until you realized...just how little content there was at the upper levels, how unbalanced pvp became... It was a real disappointment to see this fall apart like it did. I dont know who's going to get it. I fully expect them to wind the house down simular to CoH. after maybe a year.
Or we could get lucky and find someone willing to bring this company back. Anarchy Online suffered possibly the worst launch in MMO history that didnt involve intentional sabotage. (We all know who i mean) It bounced back eventually and if you took the time to play it. You found an intense character generation system, Many different classes that didnt feel repetitive. A MASSIVE world that you really could explore in more than one way and a plot line most could really sink their teeth into. FC had made the claim ages ago that AO would have the AOC engine. Never happend as far as i know. Now with this it probably never will.
Staff poisoned this game, and the Head Honcho's at FC didnt do what should have been done. For whatever reason people cant comprehend firing people i guess. But at the end of the day, one of the true pure sci-fi MMO's is going to fall. Probably the last one left standing outside of EVE. (i dont think STO's gonna make it another year) We'll all be waiting for Star Citizen but I'm not holding my breath for someone to come in and put some steel in this company's spine.
The MMO demographic back in the 90's is different than today. If someone would actually make a UO game with updated graphics it will still settle down to a niche number. You can't prevent casual jumpers from jumping games.
I hardly call 10-15 posts a year an obsession.
I made this account primarily to discuss Funcom.
Someone needs a life :P.
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In today's market, the number of people who would play a game like UO for any period of time is laughably small (compared to numbers big hitters get). Just because you like it, doesn't mean anyone else does (I'm talking meaningful numbers here, not mmorpg.com forum-goers.
Making such a game is a suicidal decision.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
That's the conventional wisdom, isn't it. And that's what has given us 9 years of failed WoW clones, all trying to emulate what was probably more of a fad than any revolution in good MMORPG design.
But myself, I believe a graphically updated game (world) with all the depth of UO might just be the next big hit. The true WoW killer. And the evidence I see, says, that making yet more shallow themeparks is the true suicidal decision.
BTW - Microsoft was the original backer of Turbine/Asheron's Call 1. But they pulled the plug (sold out) very early. Maybe even before the game was released? I don't know much more.
If Funcom will be bought it will be in-order to acquire their development tools and Dreamworld engine and maybe development teams, not because of Funcom's IP which are not that great comparitavely. In before "Dreamworld is not that great to make mmorpg's as AoC / TSW are zoned closed games". Well new company does not have to want make mmorpg's.
It might want in example to mass produce cheaper games like some mmo-lite games, lobby games, corpg's and so on.
25 post this year, all Funcom. Then you go from 2012 to 2009 without any posts. So I wouldn't say 10-15 post a year when you went 3 years without a single post.
So, if this account you created was made to primarily discuss Funcom and you took a 3 year break from saying anything does that mean you have another account to primarily discuss other things? Or are you just hear to complain every year something doesn't go your way?
The Secret World is not a bad game. Personally for me and many other it is the first MMO in years to capture the imagintion of the MMO genre again. Something I have not felt since early WoW, Tabula Rasa or many other MMOs that had potential.
If Funcom is being sold I was be very dissapointed. They have kept their promise to update their game every month even when they laid off 50% of their staff. If the content they release in the coming year is good they could possibly have an EVE affect where they have a small, supporting and vocal community that will recruit players in a steady fashion. It is still possible.
Took EVE years to come to what it is now. Maybe TSW will be the next niche "hit"
--John Ruskin
this is the truth.
the missing link in a chain of destruction.
All spelling and typographical errors are based soely on the fact that i just dont care. If you must point out my lack of atention to detail, please do it with a smile.
In other words 'this is my sock puppet FC bashing account. Now i will log on to my regular account to to do what ever it is that i do on this website'.
Got it.
OP got "burned" by AOC and has had it hard for Funcom ever since. Sad really.
Giving credit where credit is due... you have been right with most of your posts and predictions about Funcom. I remmeber them from months ago in the TSW forums. But as official "bearer of bad news" you shouldn't be surprised fans like to take shots at you. It's right there in the "messenger" job description
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
at the moment there aren't many companies which might be interested in buying funcom ...
ncsoft just released gw2 and blade&soul (asia) and has wildstar aswell as archeage in their sleeves. ea does have enough financial problems of their own. prosiebensat1 does have the money, but they are not interested in development. trion worlds inc could easily get the money from their investors, but why should they bother with tsw or aoc? activision/blizzard, well if they hadn't a gold shitting donkey named world of warcraft they would have the same financial problems ea does have atm. gameforge/frogster, gamigo, gpotato, alaplaya and all the other low budget f2p puplishers .... very unlikely, don't you think too? in my opinion only three possible buyers: 1) nexon - always wants to expand 2) pwi/cryptic - always good for a surprise and 3) bethesda/zenimax - because it seams that they want to grow bigger.
To update my thread:
#1: Funcom Q3 2012 came in: They dodge the buyout completely.
#2: They released in an indirect way The Secret World subscription numbers. 55-70k.
#3: They admit they will be cash negative for 2013.
#4: Confirm again that they are not exploring any new large-scale MMOs.
TSW sub numbers ... wtf? I recall it had enough 'good' things to be at least 100k+?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Which in turn leads to a logical conclusion - it doesn't need to be a triple-A multimillion dollars investment of a game. Game doesn't need to have millions of subscribers to be successful because it's all relative depending on how much was invested into it in the first place, considering running costs are practically a joke nowadays.
If I had to guess, it's probably a little higher than the 55-70k but not too much because of lifetime subs, that aren't counted against the october billing, but also can't accurately say how many of them are still playing regularly.
What can men do against such reckless hate?