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Developers: STOP MAKING NEWER GAMES MORE SIMPLE/EMPTY THAN OLDER GAMES

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Comments

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    There is some light in the tunnel man.

    It is a frigging long tunnel but there is.

    It is not possible to be any more dumbed down than this genre now is,so only way is up.

     

    Let's internet

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by ForumPvP

    There is some light in the tunnel man.

    It is a frigging long tunnel but there is.

    It is not possible to be any more dumbed down than this genre now is,so only way is up.

     

    I said the same thing when WoW came out... then LotRO happened. I said the same thing when WAR came out, then AoC happened. I said the same thing when Rift came out...... then SWTOR happened.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    ...

    Players demand content.

    Content takes time - LOTS of time, and people, and budget, to create.

    Old school MMOs had zero content - they had systems.

    Systems create content, but not "content" as we know it today. In the old days, creating a dungeon area with respawning mobs was creating content.

    Now, the same area would simply be viewed as a grinding hub to be avoided at all costs in favor of more structured content to consume.

    Content today is an instanced dungeon with a story, cut scenes, characters, unique art, unique loot tables, each item with unique skin/artwork and stats, and unique boss/trash mobs.

    And each encounter has to be tested 8798712896432 times for balance and "fun" or players will ignore it.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    ...

    Players demand content.

    Content takes time - LOTS of time, and people, and budget, to create.

    Old school MMOs had zero content - they had systems.

    Systems create content, but not "content" as we know it today. In the old days, creating a dungeon area with respawning mobs was creating content.

    Now, the same area would simply be viewed as a grinding hub to be avoided at all costs in favor of more structured content to consume.

    Content today is an instanced dungeon with a story, cut scenes, characters, unique art, unique loot tables, each item with unique skin/artwork and stats, and unique boss/trash mobs.

    And each encounter has to be tested 8798712896432 times for balance and "fun" or players will ignore it.

    Hence why the new system does not work. And why almost every themepark game has died within a month or two.

    Players don't want content, they want fun. And an MMO's strength is at taking its best resource (the players) and using THEM to generate variance within game systems. DAoC is STILL fun because the PLAYERS made RvR fun, not the "content".

    For all the time it takes to make content, the quests that come out of it aren't worth anything.

    And old MMOs did have content, such as raids, which were handled far better than modern MMOs. Dynamic AI with unlimited number of players vs gimmicky jumping puzzles in an instance.

     

    And I'm willing to bet if you made combat and group gameplay fun, people would find slaughtering mobs wherever they wanted a LOT more fun than going from quest hub to quest hub following the magical sparkles. Most MMO gamers would anyway. Casual gamers, not so much. But here's the thing, they already have dozens of big games for casual gamers, why not try catering to the millions in the untapped MMORPG market, instead of making more small scale stripped down, feature lite CORPGs?

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    Old school MMOs had zero content - they had systems.

    Which one has more content ?

    you have have 2 / 100 STR

    a) you can lift 2kg,you look squishy,you cant play ice-hockey , iron two handed swords -12 dmg and hit,you cant wear heavy plate mail,etc.

    or

    b) +1 dmg.

    a)These systems produces content.

    b) these systems kills content

    Let's internet

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,763Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    This is an extension of the article about systems, but I think this needs to be communicated to the developers. EAch new game or sequel to an older MMO comes out with better graphics, but far less meat to the game.

    If you make a WoW2, it should not have less classes, no ability to sit down, less areas to explore, etc. IT SHOULD HAVE MORE.

     

          WoW is probably a bad example because it already has several expansions...It would be extremely difficult for WoW2 to have anywhere near the content WoW has right off the bat.......WHat I am tired of seeing though is things like cutscenes and voice acting....To me they are trying to hard to entertain and not hard enough to make a fun game world for us to make our own entertainment......You get games like TSW and SWTOR that have 30 gigs of download and not that much content considering.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     But here's the thing, they already have dozens of big games for casual gamers, why not try catering to the millions in the untapped MMORPG market, instead of making more small scale stripped down, feature lite CORPGs?

    Millions of untapped MMORPG players in the market?

    Where?

    WoW got those millions of untapped players into the MMORPG market.

    If TOR/SWG couldn't do it, if ESO and AoC and STO and LOTRO and DDO and NW couldn't/can't do it...

    Where else are you going to pull these mythical millions of MMORPG gamers from?

    Gamers who are gamers that don't player MMOs - either extremely casual (facebook, online cards/puzzles etc.) or console gamers dominated by sports games and FPS fans.

    You going to pull millions of gamers for an old school systems-based MMO from there? Nope.

    Face facts - the audience for that kind of game exists, and is waiting for a new game, but they are not sitting outside the genre right now waiting for that game to come along.

    They've been part of the MMO market for years. They may be taking a break from it or say they are done with it, but there are not millions of untapped players out there for that kind of game. Period.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,871Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by LucioonAn good example would be WOW have years of contents added, could I make WOW2 with everything WOW1 has and more

    So let's say:

    WOW takes 4 years to make
    4 years to make expansions

    You say that you can make WOW 2 that consists of WOW+expansions and yet take only 4 years to make, costing same money as WOW without expansions?


    Would you share with me your magic formula how to shrink 8 years of development into 4?

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ForumPvP

    There is some light in the tunnel man.

    It is a frigging long tunnel but there is.

    It is not possible to be any more dumbed down than this genre now is,so only way is up.

     

    That depends.  Do you consider Zynga games to be part of the genre?  Because if not, then there could be movement in that direction.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     But here's the thing, they already have dozens of big games for casual gamers, why not try catering to the millions in the untapped MMORPG market, instead of making more small scale stripped down, feature lite CORPGs?

    Millions of untapped MMORPG players in the market?

    Where?

    WoW got those millions of untapped players into the MMORPG market.

    If TOR/SWG couldn't do it, if ESO and AoC and STO and LOTRO and DDO and NW couldn't/can't do it...

    Where else are you going to pull these mythical millions of MMORPG gamers from?

    Gamers who are gamers that don't player MMOs - either extremely casual (facebook, online cards/puzzles etc.) or console gamers dominated by sports games and FPS fans.

    You going to pull millions of gamers for an old school systems-based MMO from there? Nope.

    Face facts - the audience for that kind of game exists, and is waiting for a new game, but they are not sitting outside the genre right now waiting for that game to come along.

    They've been part of the MMO market for years. They may be taking a break from it or say they are done with it, but there are not millions of untapped players out there for that kind of game. Period.

    I agree with you on this. this also means that niche games are the way to go in the current enviroment. you need to grab a crowd and cling to it for dear life. dont expect millions, Expect enough to be able to survive and feed that community. Funcom learned this the hard way with AoC, a lesson well learned for TSW. alot of people hate funcom and TSW but there are still enough people paying monthly for it to stay afloat. It doesnt matter if your making millions of profit, it only matters if you can survive on the model your on. if you can you need to change it. But needless to say there is no Untapped millions anymore, and there wont be again until WoW closes itself down.

     

    Also just because you have your crowd doesnt mean stop. If you want to continue to grow your game you need to constantly be adding content, Animation, PVP... etc. This is why im clinging like i am to TSW, by my experiance TSW is the only game commited to this. GW2 might be another but i wish to watch for abit before making a decision.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    How do you hire 30 people with qualifications relevant to game development to work on a game for years with a budget under $1 million?

    Having to build your own game engine doesn't necessarily add much cost.  Indeed, having one built to do exactly what you want your game to do may be simpler than trying to repurpose some off-the-shelf game engine that isn't meant to do what you want your game to do.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    I think the post you are referring to was sarcasm at it's best...I find it hard to believe someone would be serious about this.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     But here's the thing, they already have dozens of big games for casual gamers, why not try catering to the millions in the untapped MMORPG market, instead of making more small scale stripped down, feature lite CORPGs?

    Millions of untapped MMORPG players in the market?

    Where?

    The several million players that existed in the market BEFORE WoW and who have not had a game catering to their interests since Vanguard?

     

    Its a much smaller niche to be sure, and no one would believe you'd net all of them. But currently, there's no competition, and we're DESPERATE.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    How do you hire 30 people with qualifications relevant to game development to work on a game for years with a budget under $1 million?

    Having to build your own game engine doesn't necessarily add much cost.  Indeed, having one built to do exactly what you want your game to do may be simpler than trying to repurpose some off-the-shelf game engine that isn't meant to do what you want your game to do.

    Building your own engine takes people with extreme skill, and adds development time, which adds to cost.

    And how do you hire 30 people under 1 million? Ask Mythic, that's how DAoC was made.

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member

    I think people forget that systems generate tons of content. UO dungeons have been an example here. Let's face it. Nobody thought their dungeons were anything epic. They were pretty dull. The exciting part was how to balance how much loot to grab before you bounced back to bank to deposit it (or risk getting player killed). Or how you could find a treasure map on a creature that took you on a whole other adventure. Or how you could be mining for 2 hours, and then get ganked because you were too slow hitting your recall rune. Heart pumping times man!

    Hell even EQ's death system produced more heart pounding action than all of today's MMOs put together, cause the cost of death was so high! A system that made the game more fun.

    Game mechanics and systems the players can manipulate make a game have longevity in it's content. 'Story line' content has a very short lifespan in comparison.

    In fact with the right systems, players can create unique, new content until you shut the servers down.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Lucioon

     

    An good example would be WOW have years of contents added, could I make WOW2 with everything WOW1 has and more


     

    So let's say:

    WOW takes 4 years to make
    4 years to make expansions

    You say that you can make WOW 2 that consists of WOW+expansions and yet take only 4 years to make, costing same money as WOW without expansions?


    Would you share with me your magic formula how to shrink 8 years of development into 4?

    I believe the point wasn't about pure content so much as options. For example, its not about having 12 dungeons instead of 6, its about the refinement and options. Its really not hard to carry over many things at all. An example being as silly as a sitting emote. MMO's now feel as though they concentrate on small moments rather than the grand scale of the game. This is where the older games got it right.

     

    I love that people are finally starting to notice the lame trend MMOs have been following.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Seriously, why can't you spend an extra eight years in development?  13 years should be about right.

    Of course the very first player to review it says "omg I can't believe you wasted more than a decade on this!!one1!!!"

    Your usual biased nonconstructive posts I see.

    If more features = longer dev time... then how come games with teams of 30 people, with under a million dollars in budget, release MMOs with more features and gameplay systems, and variety, than MMOs that were made with 300 million and a 200 man dev team? And how is it that those older MMOs, despite technology being MUCH worse, having to build the engine themselves, managed to do it FASTER?

    (hint, it's not because modern MMOs are more complex, its that old MMOs were made by passionate geniuses whereas modern MMOs are made by average programmers who have to jump through hoops for publishers)

    How do you hire 30 people with qualifications relevant to game development to work on a game for years with a budget under $1 million?

    Having to build your own game engine doesn't necessarily add much cost.  Indeed, having one built to do exactly what you want your game to do may be simpler than trying to repurpose some off-the-shelf game engine that isn't meant to do what you want your game to do.

    Building your own engine takes people with extreme skill, and adds development time, which adds to cost.

    And how do you hire 30 people under 1 million? Ask Mythic, that's how DAoC was made.

    Ever try it?  It's not as hard as you might think.  If you want AAA graphics, then maybe that would be hard--though even there, I think the barrier is more in making textures and models than the engine itself.  But if you just want something simple that will let you make the game do whatever you want and run smoothly at low settings on basically any recent hardware, that's not so hard.

  • InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member

    Yeah. Stick this please.

    Make an article about it as well.

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