Originally posted by ShakyMo Diablo isn't hard, its just a patience test, how long your prepared to grind shit over and over before progressing. Or throw some cash at the rmah, let's face it blizzard need the cash 8)
isn't hard? Have you done MP10? I doubt it. This is the same non-credible claim that hard mode raid is not hard in WOW. Do you have a hardcore character at paragon level 100? I think not.
No because I was bored frikin stupid by it months ago and not prepared to grind the same shit over and over and over and over for the gear to progress. (or pay real money to skip ahead)
Originally posted by ShakyMo No because I was bored frikin stupid by it months ago and not prepared to grind the same shit over and over and over and over for the gear to progress. (or pay real money to skip ahead)
Let me put it this way ... i know you like to put down modern games as "too easy".
But whenever i play D3, i die a lot, and so do those i play with .. and at MP10, it is impossible for 99% of the players including you. So from where i am standing, it is harder than all pve MMOs i have tried, and that is good enough.
And whether you like to grind or not, have zero bearing on whether the game is hard or not. Grindy game can have tough combat, and non-grindy game can have easy combat.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No I don't like to put down modern games as too easy.
I put certain games down as too boring as they achieve longevity by forcing you to grind the same shit over and over.
There are many modern hard games - mount and blade, ftl, dungeons of dreadmore, dark souls, iron man Xcom, iron man minecraft to name a few.
Boring is also in the eye of the beholder. Xfire data would suggest that D3 is not boring to many.
To me, mowing down mobs with a disintegration beam is fun. It is more fun when some of them know how to kill you and get you from time to time.
It is even MORE fun, when you can kill them with different skill builds and alts.
And whether it is the "same" shit is a ponit of view. You do know that the dungeons are random, right? I would say the Eve pve missions are 10x more repetitive and the "same shit" a lot more than D3 dungeons.
I started at the kitchen table, graduated to King's Quest and Quake and now have went full circle and am back to my roots of FPS and single player RPG's. The glory days of MMORPG's are gone and they were fun not because they were hard or difficult but simply were a way for me to get together with a few dozen other geeks and socialize. What made those days special were not because the games were "hard" or required a lot of strategy or moter skills, but becauue of the socialization factor and the timesinks involved.
Sad for departed gamers But, life happens, ya know?
Don't feel bad for the people on this site; in lots of cases, they just cannot let go.
nah nothing to be sad about, I still log into ventrillo daily to chat with some gamers that I met years ago in DAoC. We have all went our seperate ways as far as games now. A couple still play SWToR, a couple still do LoTRO, one is back to playing some old school Avalon Hill style wargames with his brother. I stil log into GW2 on occasion but have mainly moved back to single player RPGs and FPS's and went to the darkside with a purchase of a XBOX 360. I enjoyed the journey from UO through DAoC, SWG, EQ2 , LoTRO, and ending up with GW2. I wish that some games such as Wish, Auto Assault ( how the hell did they mess up cars and guns?) had came to light or been better. Mourning and Dark and Light were also could have beens but it is what it is. I am semi watching Elder Scrolls but have a feeling it will also be a warmed over sack of feces, hope I am wrong there
I don't feel sad for anyone, other than some who think WoW was the first MMO. However I do have a feeling they are just chasing a will o the wisp. I LOL everytime I hear the phrase WoW clone when WoW is nothing but a EQ1 clone which was just a graphical MuD.
Want hard, google the phrase MUME, grab some pencils and paper because you have to create your own maps as you go, then play MUME for a week. No pretty graphics and cutscenes or voice acting. Just old school gaming
There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these short games looking at the profits.
Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.
That's dumb. Games have always been made for money.
how's that working out?
It's making developers millions and bringing millions of people entertainment that they are consuming in record numbers every year.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No I don't like to put down modern games as too easy.
I put certain games down as too boring as they achieve longevity by forcing you to grind the same shit over and over.
There are many modern hard games - mount and blade, ftl, dungeons of dreadmore, dark souls, iron man Xcom, iron man minecraft to name a few.
There are also plenty of games you can play on hard setting. I play pretty much all my games on hard because if I don't die every now and again, I feel like my skills are not tested enough. I don't care for punishment though since I don't "get the gambler's rush" when the DP is harsh. It is merely an annoyance for me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't know about EQ, but DAoC has changed since WoW became popular. It now has quests the same way WoW does, and you don't need to group to level anymore. Plus, you can level from 1-50 in a matter of days, instead of years.
Needing years to level up is not hard .. just time consuming.
Challenge has nothing to do with time. You can make an encounter hard enough so almost no player can beat (Sunwell, anyone?) and you don't need a harsh penalty or a steep leveling curve to do that.
Just look at Diablo 3. You can level to 60 pretty fast but you won't be kiling Diablo on MP10 any time soon.
I never said it was, if you read my OP, you can read what I considered hard.
There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these short games looking at the profits.
Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.
That's dumb. Games have always been made for money.
how's that working out?
It's making developers millions and bringing millions of people entertainment that they are consuming in record numbers every year.
To be fair, the industry is shrinking 2012 .. however it did make many rich and entertain hundreds of millions.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No I don't like to put down modern games as too easy.
I put certain games down as too boring as they achieve longevity by forcing you to grind the same shit over and over.
There are many modern hard games - mount and blade, ftl, dungeons of dreadmore, dark souls, iron man Xcom, iron man minecraft to name a few.
There are also plenty of games you can play on hard setting. I play pretty much all my games on hard because if I don't die every now and again, I feel like my skills are not tested enough. I don't care for punishment though since I don't "get the gambler's rush" when the DP is harsh. It is merely an annoyance for me.
Exactly. If it is a hard challenge, why can't i just try again and have the chance to figure out how to beat it? That is the fun part. Having to waste 20 min to replay part of the game so that i can try again ... is just plain unnecessary. It adds nothing for me.
Originally posted by christianhoffert Sometimes when it's too hard to play the game, It get's boring. But the fun part might be The PVP.
Most people want an easy game with "good PVP." That way they can run around killing bazillions of helpless creatures all around them. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these players get a rush of power when this is happening. When they get tired of collecting elite gear from helpless creatures they can do PVP. If the player wins PVP their ego swells even more and they can talk trash to the loosing player, humiliate him, tell him to learn to play, and / or rob him. The loosing player might talk trash too.
If the PVE is not hard and dangerous then it's not worth playing.
I don't think games are easier or harder. I think the problem is that its too close to reality.
Realism is great for visual aspects, but realism shouldn't be used for Morality in an Virtual Reality.
Everquest was fun and exciting because when it first came out, it was different, the rules of gaming was challenged, and people had to adapt. When they adapted, they became immersed in the game itself.
current MMO's once we adapted to the combat mechanisms, there was nothing left, we aren't adapting to the new world laws or rules, its always the same throught all genres. So we lose the immersion and moved on to other games.
When an MMO finally challenges the Norm of society's Rules and Laws in their Virtual World, then that MMO will become the next big thing.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
It's got nothing to do with easy or hard Themepark or sandbox Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
Originally posted by ShakyMo It's got nothing to do with easy or hard Themepark or sandbox Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
We only have Endgame because Developers are still in the Old Mindset of set rules and laws that shouldn't apply to an MMO.
Why should there be an Endgame in a game that shouldn't End in the first place.
There is only an Endgame because Developer's can't think of anything new that players can do for a long time. The reason why we do anything in real life is because we don't know when our life will end, its this unknown that kept us going. Another reason is for the next generation of life that hopefully will benefit from our choices.
What New game developers must do to give longevity to their games will have to develop somekind of reincarnation program that combines all the data of your first character and gives your second generation character a breath of fresh air.
PK killed my character, he dies, reincarnated into a girl, she goes and killed the PK to avenge my first character's death, horray she gets an bonus for avenging the death of first gen. Becames a killer herself, gets killed third gen gets data crunched and have various bonuses and weakness. Won't that be a cool game where everyone is different.
Won't that be cool to log in after a month of absent and found that your friend's all died, and you contacted them for their new generation's characters, and begin a brand new game.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by ShakyMo It's got nothing to do with easy or hard Themepark or sandbox Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
Diablo 3 is that game. I hope there is more like it. No apologies. Just laser focus on what i think is the "meaty" part of the game. LOL is also that game in a pvp setting.
Actual world based MMOs? I will leave those for you guys to play.
Planetside 2 ... i will try .. not because of the world part, but because it may be a good sci-fi pvp FPS (and if it is not, then i will pass).
While you complain about the lack of a world MMO, i often wish there are good sci-fi online action RPG (beyond Borderland .. and even that, i don't really count it as a proper sci-fi ARPG). The good news is that i also don't have a lack of fun things to play. So i don't spend all my time mopping what it could have been, but enjoy what it is now.
Originally posted by ShakyMo It's got nothing to do with easy or hard Themepark or sandbox Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
We only have Endgame because Developers are still in the Old Mindset of set rules and laws that shouldn't apply to an MMO.
Why should there be an Endgame in a game that shouldn't End in the first place.
I wouldn't use the word "still" because old MMO devs didn't have the kind of hard coded content driven end game of modern MMOs. Only EverQuest did, really.
But modern MMOs all have it because of WoW, which copied its bad end game from EQ.
Originally posted by Randayn It's less about easy and hard....more about risk, reward and punishment for failure
I kind of agree with this, at least more than I agree with most things people post. Anything that makes the character develope is good. I can imagine a game streamlined for instances that you enter with a group of people to complete a goal within a certain time limit. If you complete it then you get a reward. If you do not complete it then you wasted your time and some money to enter the instance. I would spit on this game.
Risk, reward, and punishment could be implemented as part of the actual world into virtually everything you do. I might like that.
Originally posted by ShakyMo It's got nothing to do with easy or hard Themepark or sandbox Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
It's either not an MMO or not an RPG. We just can't win can we?
Originally posted by Randayn It's less about easy and hard....more about risk, reward and punishment for failure
I kind of agree with this, at least more than I agree with most things people post. Anything that makes the character develope is good. I can imagine a game streamlined for instances that you enter with a group of people to complete a goal within a certain time limit. If you complete it then you get a reward. If you do not complete it then you wasted your time and some money to enter the instance. I would spit on this game.
Risk, reward, and punishment could be implemented as part of the actual world into virtually everything you do. I might like that.
yeah, implemented in the actual world was what I meant...the other thing you said you'd spit on is something Id share in the act of spitting on
Comments
isn't hard? Have you done MP10? I doubt it. This is the same non-credible claim that hard mode raid is not hard in WOW.
Do you have a hardcore character at paragon level 100? I think not.
Let me put it this way ... i know you like to put down modern games as "too easy".
But whenever i play D3, i die a lot, and so do those i play with .. and at MP10, it is impossible for 99% of the players including you. So from where i am standing, it is harder than all pve MMOs i have tried, and that is good enough.
And whether you like to grind or not, have zero bearing on whether the game is hard or not. Grindy game can have tough combat, and non-grindy game can have easy combat.
I put certain games down as too boring as they achieve longevity by forcing you to grind the same shit over and over.
There are many modern hard games - mount and blade, ftl, dungeons of dreadmore, dark souls, iron man Xcom, iron man minecraft to name a few.
Why didn't you just buy your gear off the auction house instead of dying all the time?
Boring is also in the eye of the beholder. Xfire data would suggest that D3 is not boring to many.
To me, mowing down mobs with a disintegration beam is fun. It is more fun when some of them know how to kill you and get you from time to time.
It is even MORE fun, when you can kill them with different skill builds and alts.
And whether it is the "same" shit is a ponit of view. You do know that the dungeons are random, right? I would say the Eve pve missions are 10x more repetitive and the "same shit" a lot more than D3 dungeons.
How do you know i did not? And how do you know i die "all the time"? I like a difficulty level where i die a few times a run.
I thought you understand the need for challenge. What is the point if the run is guaranteed? Plus, you get more reward at higher difficulties.
nah nothing to be sad about, I still log into ventrillo daily to chat with some gamers that I met years ago in DAoC. We have all went our seperate ways as far as games now. A couple still play SWToR, a couple still do LoTRO, one is back to playing some old school Avalon Hill style wargames with his brother. I stil log into GW2 on occasion but have mainly moved back to single player RPGs and FPS's and went to the darkside with a purchase of a XBOX 360. I enjoyed the journey from UO through DAoC, SWG, EQ2 , LoTRO, and ending up with GW2. I wish that some games such as Wish, Auto Assault ( how the hell did they mess up cars and guns?) had came to light or been better. Mourning and Dark and Light were also could have beens but it is what it is. I am semi watching Elder Scrolls but have a feeling it will also be a warmed over sack of feces, hope I am wrong there
I don't feel sad for anyone, other than some who think WoW was the first MMO. However I do have a feeling they are just chasing a will o the wisp. I LOL everytime I hear the phrase WoW clone when WoW is nothing but a EQ1 clone which was just a graphical MuD.
Want hard, google the phrase MUME, grab some pencils and paper because you have to create your own maps as you go, then play MUME for a week. No pretty graphics and cutscenes or voice acting. Just old school gaming
I miss DAoC
It's making developers millions and bringing millions of people entertainment that they are consuming in record numbers every year.
There are also plenty of games you can play on hard setting. I play pretty much all my games on hard because if I don't die every now and again, I feel like my skills are not tested enough. I don't care for punishment though since I don't "get the gambler's rush" when the DP is harsh. It is merely an annoyance for me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I never said it was, if you read my OP, you can read what I considered hard.
To be fair, the industry is shrinking 2012 .. however it did make many rich and entertain hundreds of millions.
Exactly. If it is a hard challenge, why can't i just try again and have the chance to figure out how to beat it? That is the fun part. Having to waste 20 min to replay part of the game so that i can try again ... is just plain unnecessary. It adds nothing for me.
Most people want an easy game with "good PVP." That way they can run around killing bazillions of helpless creatures all around them. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these players get a rush of power when this is happening. When they get tired of collecting elite gear from helpless creatures they can do PVP. If the player wins PVP their ego swells even more and they can talk trash to the loosing player, humiliate him, tell him to learn to play, and / or rob him. The loosing player might talk trash too.
If the PVE is not hard and dangerous then it's not worth playing.
I don't think games are easier or harder. I think the problem is that its too close to reality.
Realism is great for visual aspects, but realism shouldn't be used for Morality in an Virtual Reality.
Everquest was fun and exciting because when it first came out, it was different, the rules of gaming was challenged, and people had to adapt. When they adapted, they became immersed in the game itself.
current MMO's once we adapted to the combat mechanisms, there was nothing left, we aren't adapting to the new world laws or rules, its always the same throught all genres. So we lose the immersion and moved on to other games.
When an MMO finally challenges the Norm of society's Rules and Laws in their Virtual World, then that MMO will become the next big thing.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
easy or hard
Themepark or sandbox
Grindy or quick
The problem is most if these new mmorpgs agent actually mmos any more, especially when you hit endgame.
I wish some companies would just release an endgame lobby, probably blizzard with Titan. The other companies can get on with making actual mmorpgs again. There us some hope, planetside 2 is big budget and certainly brings back the MMO part, although of course that doesn't really have the rpg part.
We only have Endgame because Developers are still in the Old Mindset of set rules and laws that shouldn't apply to an MMO.
Why should there be an Endgame in a game that shouldn't End in the first place.
There is only an Endgame because Developer's can't think of anything new that players can do for a long time. The reason why we do anything in real life is because we don't know when our life will end, its this unknown that kept us going. Another reason is for the next generation of life that hopefully will benefit from our choices.
What New game developers must do to give longevity to their games will have to develop somekind of reincarnation program that combines all the data of your first character and gives your second generation character a breath of fresh air.
PK killed my character, he dies, reincarnated into a girl, she goes and killed the PK to avenge my first character's death, horray she gets an bonus for avenging the death of first gen. Becames a killer herself, gets killed third gen gets data crunched and have various bonuses and weakness. Won't that be a cool game where everyone is different.
Won't that be cool to log in after a month of absent and found that your friend's all died, and you contacted them for their new generation's characters, and begin a brand new game.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Diablo 3 is that game. I hope there is more like it. No apologies. Just laser focus on what i think is the "meaty" part of the game. LOL is also that game in a pvp setting.
Actual world based MMOs? I will leave those for you guys to play.
Planetside 2 ... i will try .. not because of the world part, but because it may be a good sci-fi pvp FPS (and if it is not, then i will pass).
While you complain about the lack of a world MMO, i often wish there are good sci-fi online action RPG (beyond Borderland .. and even that, i don't really count it as a proper sci-fi ARPG). The good news is that i also don't have a lack of fun things to play. So i don't spend all my time mopping what it could have been, but enjoy what it is now.
I wouldn't use the word "still" because old MMO devs didn't have the kind of hard coded content driven end game of modern MMOs. Only EverQuest did, really.
But modern MMOs all have it because of WoW, which copied its bad end game from EQ.
I kind of agree with this, at least more than I agree with most things people post. Anything that makes the character develope is good. I can imagine a game streamlined for instances that you enter with a group of people to complete a goal within a certain time limit. If you complete it then you get a reward. If you do not complete it then you wasted your time and some money to enter the instance. I would spit on this game.
Risk, reward, and punishment could be implemented as part of the actual world into virtually everything you do. I might like that.
It's either not an MMO or not an RPG. We just can't win can we?
Yes-games are too easy.
Yes-game worlds, community, and classes were better before.
As one who usually solos these days, I kind of hate to admit it, but lack of need to cooperative group strategy is killing current games.
yeah, implemented in the actual world was what I meant...the other thing you said you'd spit on is something Id share in the act of spitting on
Same solution. Let the players choose the level of risks/reward, like in D3.