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When will Developers realize that they are mainly to blame for the "Rush Mentality"?

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon

When will Developers realize that they are mainly to blame for the Rush Mentality?

This poor game design over the past few years really starting to irritate me.

When you build your MMO, to be more rewarding, more fun, more features at a MAX LEVEL than at a lower level, PEOPLE WILL OBVIOUSLY RUSH TO CAP.

Come on, developers,,, when will to comprehend this?

For example:

If game has a world split into zone level ranged.
level 1 - has starter area. ( total 1 zone)
level 5 - has starter area plus 2 new zones (total 3 zones)
Level 10 has starter area, plus level 5 area, plus 2 new level 10 zones. (total 5 zones)
etc.
the Lower the player character level, the less area is available for them to explore. The level 10 and up, gets full access to the game world. While the level 1 only has the starter zone to play in.

Well with that in mind, WHY WOULD I WANT TO STAY A LOW LEVEL WHEN MAX LEVEL GET MORE FREEDOM?
seem like Bad design to me.

another example:
Lets say I am level 60 on my character class (Mesmer), and have all the abilities for my Mesmer as a level 60 ( the current max level). Been Max level and using these skills for a year now. Then a new Expansion comes out that increases the max level to 70. Now my Mesmer has brand new set of skills for 60-70.

Well in this situation, WHY WOULD I WANT TO SLOWLY TAKE MY TIME, WHEN A LEVEL 70 HAS ACCESS TO NEW MESMER SKILLS TO USE WHILE THE SLOWLY LEVELING 60 MESMER IS USING THE SAME SKILLS THEY BEEN USE TO FOR A YEAR NOW?

With a design like this, I am more motivated to get to the new max level than to continue my time playing around with old content of level 60.

and that goes to my last example.

When Content is gated by levels. Such as Instanced PvP games, Raids, Dungeons, Events, Housing, Spells, whatever.

When its gated, and I am prevented from doing that certain feature because I dont reach the level requirement, that is more motivation to Speed Leveling rather than taking my time.
If I like Raiding, but Raiding is only at max level, than I need to get to max level as soon as possible to play that feature I enjoy.

Again,, BAD GAME DESIGN.

But MMO developers continue to do this.
 

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Comments

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member

     The majority of games are gated by levels, or mechanics similar to levels. The only ones who can claim they are not gated by levels are instead gated by difficulty, party size, equipment, time allocation ... etc etc.

     

     Progression is a fact of gaming, its more obvious in a level based game but even in those without a number hovering next to your name progression exsists. In essence your post is claiming progression based gaming ( I'm playing fast and loose here) is bad game design. The devil's advocate in me challenges you to propose a system with any amount of staying power that isn't in any way a progressive game.

     

    Progression makes games worth playing.

     

  • SandboxSandbox SwedenPosts: 295Member Uncommon

    The question should not be how to design around the levels, the question should be if we really need levels?

    Until developers don't think outside the box we will get the same old game, just with different skins.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Progression is progesssion. Gating is not.
    Gating content is just bad game design. I have ideas of my own. So I know its possible. Just developers never seem to think out the box now days.

    image

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Progression is progesssion. Gating is not.
    Gating content is just bad game design. I have ideas of my own. So I know its possible. Just developers never seem to think out the box now days.

     

    I think that's a really good point.  We all know why they have gating, but I think you're right, and it may do more harm than good.

     

    To use GW2 as an example, they've been doing this upward level scaling, with some of their update content, where everyone gets boosted to 80.  Leveling up is still rewarding (stats, traits, equipment bonuses, etc) but it's not so vital that there's a need to do it ASAP, just to be able to play the game.

     

    It'd be interesting if they started scaling everyone, in every zone, to whatever level the zone is.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Progression is progesssion. Gating is not.
    Gating content is just bad game design. I have ideas of my own. So I know its possible. Just developers never seem to think out the box now days.

     Gating is a key part of progression, certainly in a Mmo. You must have incentive and gates to ensure the customers continue playing for X amount of time. In most cases the gating is poorly done, that I will agree with you on, but gating is a nessecary mechanic within a progression based game. There are possibilities for dealing with a "level" game, but not for removing the progression in games ( certainly mmo's). In skill based games the gate is the time required to perfect the skill, in "skill" ala Axe is currently 126/200 the gate is the skills progression. In games devoid of those mechanics the gate falls to gear or party size, so when you break the systems down that the majority of games run on .. it falls to progression. Whether that be levels, or any of my above examples its really the same thing. The gating still exsists, the progression is still the point of the game. I don't find it bad game design at all, in fact I think there are several studies which prove the typical system is perfect for humans beings, thus the reason these systems are so engrossing now-a-days.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    You might want to think of the benefits of what you call "gating" and why things were done this way in the first place. If you do things differently what changes and what do you need to consider.

    And "there is no advantage to gating" is not an acceptable answer.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    Though a system of progression is enherit for an MMORPG and most gaming at large, I do feel a lot of developers are too end game focused.

     

    And, what I mean is that most MMO's I see set their sites on the next big expansion, new advanced class, high levels items, or skill sets and all together new features added to their games for the benefit of those who have run out of things to do.

     

    I think it would be better for developers to hold off on releasing the new cap and everything that comes with it, and pay more attention to revamping or droping all-together things that have become antiquated.

     

    What I see as a good common example:

    Low level Crafting and material collection.

    When developers first release an MMO with a crafting system it is usually an important thing to take part in from start to finish (first level to level cap). This is because the materials that can be obtained from the very starting levels still have high degree of application, and thusly value, in an environment where there is not such a huge difference between the make up of (then considered to be) high level items and low level items.

     

    But, a few expansions later, developers release new higher level materials instead of finding interesting ways to add more use to low level materials. This makes low level materials useless to the end game, and also makes the areas they are found in places to merely pass through.

     

    And, because there is this bigger push to cap out in in order to stay in the game in a useful way, the materials don't even remain useful at low levels, because newbs don't spend much time at lower levels or in low level areas. So not only do newbs have nothing to offer in the way of combat aid to high levels but they can't even develope a level of comfort where they are at in their game because they can't build anything close to substantial wealth for their level.

     

    So, you end up with a crafting system that is  almost completely unused at lower levels. This brings up the question; Why even have crafting available before mid level? But, the issue I see with something like this is that the average developer will just push the end game envelope, and not go back and tighten up things like this before pressing foward.

     

    They could make it so low level materials will always have value at all levels of game play. And, they could make it to where the lower level materials can only be obtained in low level areas. This would always give high levels a reason to go back to starting areas frequently and stay in touch with the new players. Say maybe providing them with a job of collection, paid with aids towards power-leveling?

     

    But, by-and-large developers ignore what they have made once they make it. That is what i mean when I say developers are for the most part too end game focused. This is just one of many examples and one of many ways in which starting players are increasingly playing a very different game then high levels are. The more the gap is widened without filling in the space the more disconnected the end game is from the first day newb. The less help they get as well. and for that the slow inevitable death of a game do to less new players (a game doesn't have to be shut down to die, it can be populated by a very small, high paying, tight nit, elitist player base for years before it actually closers it's doors. a game can die long before it is no longer available).

     

     

     

     

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  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
     

    because it's all about money.   the trend of mass exodus from games in 1-3 months causes investors and developers to create hype and go for box sales.  im not saying all developers don't care about the product.  but investors care about the return.  it's been shown that creating a long lasting product hasn't worked.  so why wouldnt they create games that last for a few months?  grab the quick cash the go free to play.  hit both player bases with the same product.  and maximize profits.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member

     You also need to consider that most of "us" don't want recontent rehashed, we don't want old recipes updated. We don't want the same crafting recipes updated, and we don't want a dungeon recycled to be run at end game. We want new content constantly and we want it now. So instead of beating around the bush, thats exactly what we get. New content , new levels, new classes, new skills, and completely new end game areas.

     We are a progressive species, it only stands to reason we want the same in our games. Valid complaints can be made for the implentation of this progression but we certainly can't call game developers bad or lazy for it. We are to blame, not because its choice, but because progression defines us. That's getting down to the bare bones of the issue of course, we could always keep it simplistic and scratch our heads as to why the same model of games keeps getting created and purchased by the millions of gamers world-wide; while gnashing our teeth that we've been here before and done this already and why can't the developers give us something new that breaks the progression mold. I prefer to be realistic about it though , its not going to happen and the few games that do break this mold won't be a blip on the radar compared to the games that hold to it.

     

     

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Redemp

     You also need to consider that most of "us" don't want recontent rehashed, we don't want old recipes updated. We don't want the same crafting recipes updated, and we don't want a dungeon recycled to be run at end game. We want new content constantly and we want it now. So instead of beating around the bush, thats exactly what we get. New content , new levels, new classes, new skills, and completely new end game areas.

     We are a progressive species, it only stands to reason we want the same in our games. Valid complaints can be made for the implentation of this progression but we certainly can't call game developers bad or lazy for it. We are to blame, not because its choice, but because progression defines us. That's getting down to the bare bones of the issue of course, we could always keep it simplistic and scratch our heads as to why the same model of games keeps getting created and purchased by the millions of gamers world-wide; while gnashing our teeth that we've been here before and done this already and why can't the developers give us something new that breaks the progression mold. I prefer to be realistic about it though , its not going to happen and the few games that do break this mold won't be a blip on the radar compared to the games that hold to it.

     

     

     

    By this reply I see that I missed making my own point in the way I intended to.

     

    So i will be more clear....

     

    It is not even that they tend to focus on new end-game content over tightening up what already exists that bothers me; So much as it is, that a lot of developers don't go back over what already exists very often, in order to bring it into sync with new content. And, that creates a social and start-to-end-game gap bigger then the rich/poor divide in china (that's a poor crack at china but relevant anologically).

     

    And, i can also think of a game that has broken this mold and holds the guinness book of world records for most prolificly updated game and most popular free to play MMORPG and it's been running for over a decade with 200mil registered users and over 6mil active subscribers...wait for it...Runescape (sorry people but this is a harp I can never stop playing, as that game has the single most dynamic content and involved game play on the whole of any MMO out there, and most of the problems brought up on these forums...as a runescape player...I don't have these issues).

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  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member

    Devs do this to accomidate to our societal requirements on immediate gratification in the form of shiney things.

     

    Most people have this preconcieved notion that they will get more and cooler stuff at level caps. They are true for the most part. Very few players now stop and smell the roses along the way.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 613Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    Devs do this to accomidate to our societal requirements on immediate gratification in the form of shiney things.

     

    Most people have this preconcieved notion that they will get more and cooler stuff at level caps. They are true for the most part. Very few players now stop and smell the roses along the way.

    Yea, it's perfectly normal these days, most people are goal oriented, and are trained to think goal-oriented, in school, at work etc. Higher level = better stuff was the deal since MMO's started, the gating was always there, the difference is made only by the tedium of gaining "levels". Considering the way of thinking which I've described above, the players tend to pick fast journeys and not the lengthy, tedious ones - "i want it done and i want it done fast". As a dev, you lose too much if your game does not adapt to that. If people would not want the rush mentality, Vanguard would have 5mil subs.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    Devs do this to accomidate to our societal requirements on immediate gratification in the form of shiney things.

     

    Most people have this preconcieved notion that they will get more and cooler stuff at level caps. They are true for the most part. Very few players now stop and smell the roses along the way.

    Yea, it's perfectly normal these days, most people are goal oriented, and are trained to think goal-oriented, in school, at work etc. Higher level = better stuff was the deal since MMO's started, the gating was always there, the difference is made only by the tedium of gaining "levels". Considering the way of thinking which I've described above, the players tend to pick fast journeys and not the lengthy, tedious ones - "i want it done and i want it done fast". As a dev, you lose too much if your game does not adapt to that. If people would not want the rush mentality, Vanguard would have 5mil subs.

    I would totally play Vanguard if it didn't have a monthly subscription, it sounds like I could spend months and months just playing with the advancement system. I'd pay for expansions but I'd rather not pay $180 a year for an amount of content equal to a single player rpg game like Dragon Age or Morrowind.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member

    Games tend to give greater and greater per time spent rewards the higher level you are. That is what causes the rush.

     

    A quest line that give 10 silver in WoW at low levels gives many many times that amount in higher levels.

    Games like Rift have lots of content all at the upper end including an extra power leveling system post max level.

     

    The key, then, is to give equal incentives to do side quests and explore at low levels compared to high levels. However I think games that encourage this will be less popular to the casual audiances most MMO developers are chasing. So it ends up being a cyclical effect....

     

     

     

     

     

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    I don't think equal incentives to persue side-quest/story-lines and alternate ways of play can be given in streamlined MMO's (and streamlined MMO's seem to make up a chunk of the genre) for the most part. The reason being that it is counter-intuitive to the system of progression. Part of an MMO being streamlined is that any non-combat skill or activities, have their effectivness/ability to be oproficient in them, tied to ones overall level.

     

    There are Games that are rather streamlined but tend to break away from this a bit like Lord of the Rings Online, and Runes of Magic (actually have not played this one in ages and sorta forget if it's like that, but i think it is). In which crafting appears to be it's own thing, fairly indipendant of  combat level.

     

    There are other games like aika online that have been experimenting with this. While it's crafting system is tied to level (rather then having it's own level based on how much you do it), the newer fishing skill has it's own leveling system that goes up to 800/800. And the only complaint they get about it is that crafting is not also independant of combat level.

     

    with this skill you will see plenty of nubs trying to max out fishing before they do much else so as to use the highest level fishing rewards to fund their rise through the game in the best way possible. You will also see maxed out characters doing it because they have done everything else.

     

    But, I really think over all it is beneficial to with each new expansion take a break from that kind of updating to see how things are effected, then go back and bring older things into sync. Because, it's only the high levels in a game that has been expanded on several times that benefit. the low levels find that they have nothing to offer the game until they muscle through to gitting that bare minimum of being actually useful in combat. these low levels will one day be high levels, so I see it as important to work on refining older updates, even to the point of full re-vamps and removals or additions. If you don't you end up with an MMO that has a spectacular end-game that is not worth the effort to get to.

     

     

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  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    my 2 cents..

         I was never into "new" shinies and bigger and better things..  I played for exploration and discovery.. FUN..  I think back to EQ way back when and how I played and what I looked foward to.. I looked for the hot fishing spots in the world.. New dungeons and landmarks to find..  Character progression didn't drive me.. Granted it might of been a neccessary evil in getting the better spells that allowed me to travel further into the world.. But I never felt gated or progressed..

          There are ways to change the MMO genre into non level progressons or gating.. The question is , do most of the customers want that tho?  Not everyone plays for the same reasons..  The Devs are just doing what the paying customers want.. This so reminds me of the EQ "beginning of the end".. When the devs started Montey Hall'ing the loot..  The game changed from a level based game to a loot oriented based game.. Once the shinies became the carrot,  All hell broke loose..

  • Inf666Inf666 DarmstadtPosts: 508Member

    Of course they realize it but its part of the business model.

    They found out that they earn more money per time frame the shorter the game is. The 'rush' as you call it is especially desired.

    What many gamers fail to understand is that the developers job is not to fullfil their dreams, but the dreams of the shareholders. And whats their dream? Maximizing the rate of return with as little risk as possible. I am pretty sure that the rate of return is highest in the year of the games release. That is why it would be better to have a game release every year rather than once every 10 years.

    At the same time the developers do not want to lose their jobs. Creating an MMO that everyone plays for decades will make them jobless.

    So the ideal game is a game that is consumed fast and then thrown away, has a high rate of return and has low risk.

    Thats why you are seeing so much of the themepark 'rush' model lately. It will stay that way until either (from the perspective of the shareholders) a more successful model is found or the market parameters change.

    ---
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed


    When you build your MMO, to be more rewarding, more fun, more features at a MAX LEVEL than at a lower level, PEOPLE WILL OBVIOUSLY RUSH TO CAP.

    How do you explain people still rushing in GW1 and GW2 then?  I mean, you see the brick wall directly across the roadway up ahead of you, you see the road aiming right at it, who's really to blame for you standing on the accelerator the entire trip?

    Your preconditions don't apply, yet they play the game the same way.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Inf666

    Of course they realize it but its part of the business model.

    They found out that they earn more money per time frame the shorter the game is. The 'rush' as you call it is especially desired.

    What many gamers fail to understand is that the developers job is not to fullfil their dreams, but the dreams of the shareholders. And whats their dream? Maximizing the rate of return with as little risk as possible. I am pretty sure that the rate of return is highest in the year of the games release. That is why it would be better to have a game release every year rather than once every 10 years.

    At the same time the developers do not want to lose their jobs. Creating an MMO that everyone plays for decades will make them jobless.

    So the ideal game is a game that is consumed fast and then thrown away, has a high rate of return and has low risk.

    Thats why you are seeing so much of the themepark 'rush' model lately. It will stay that way until either (from the perspective of the shareholders) a more successful model is found or the market parameters change.

    Cynical, but I think (essentially) accurate.   Specific points could be attacked :P

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by MMOExposed


    When you build your MMO, to be more rewarding, more fun, more features at a MAX LEVEL than at a lower level, PEOPLE WILL OBVIOUSLY RUSH TO CAP.

    How do you explain people still rushing in GW1 and GW2 then?  I mean, you see the brick wall directly across the roadway up ahead of you, you see the road aiming right at it, who's really to blame for you standing on the accelerator the entire trip?

    Your preconditions don't apply, yet they play the game the same way.

    well in GW1 you have skills your character unlocks by leveling. Faster you level, the faster you gain acess to more skills to used on your build. pretty simple really to define a reason to rush in that game as well.

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  • Saur0nSaur0n Denver, COPosts: 114Member Uncommon
    The devs aren't the people to blame.  It's the Publishers/Investors who rush things.  When the only way to make a game these days is to bow down to money grubbing tyrants what do you expect?
  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    But that is not the only way to make a game these days. Private companies (though few and far in between) do just as well on the MMO market as publicly traded companies. While true that they have slightly smaller user base, it is typically (from what I have seen) more dedicated. And while they make significantly less money over all, they have no one to pay back or really pay out to. Many structures like this go hand-in-hand with being their own isp, even and having full in-house tech support on-call.

     

    The private comopany may never explode onto the scene like some big new MMO but their employees are better paid with the biggest pressure on their shoulders being self-placed. Once upon a time the majority of MMO's were private endevours. clever guys in a basement building a dream. imo, The real shift came when big companies and investment firms and the like started showing interest in them as a possible avanue of making money. And, I really think it stays that way primarily not because players demand streamlined or their backers do (as many of these MMO developers are sub-divisions of their parent companies who don't directly regulate them or interfere as long as the profits keep rolling in). But, cowardice towards the ends of trying something different.

     

    Laying it all on backers, or players for wanting it the way it is...it's just making excuses for people. And, showing un-founded cause why things can't change. Obviously there are enough people on these forums alone who would like some significant change, and you see these same types in-game and on the forums for the respective games in which change may be warranted. There are plenty of people I think who would even pay more to get over all higher quality. The desire is their, the drive isn't. And, IMO that part of the blame can be laid on developers, without tired attempts at laying it on the shoulders of the supposed pressures they get from both sides, thus making everyone to blame, so nothing gets done about it.

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  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member
    A quick question , "Rush mentality to be blamed on Devs" I got that , but who the hell keeps playing those types of games in the first place? Devs go with that sales and is popular.   Like sex , we all know sex sales , put a sexy bikini babe in a mcdonalds advert and you'll see their market shares skyrocket within 10 minutes.
  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SuprGamerX
    A quick question , "Rush mentality to be blamed on Devs" I got that , but who the hell keeps playing those types of games in the first place? Devs go with that sales and is popular.   Like sex , we all know sex sales , put a sexy bikini babe in a mcdonalds advert and you'll see their market shares skyrocket within 10 minutes.

    rofl.  nothing get me hornier than a skinny chick stuffing her face with a big mac.  makes me hungry too.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

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