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The Hate

2

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  • Cyde77Cyde77 WakefieldPosts: 101Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Cyde77

     


    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    Originally posted by Cyde77 Defo agree with op, Hercules and Inferno were going at it for a long time but I havent seen them in ages, but 2-3 years on since most of these people quit during beta or early release, theres still people here every day hating repeating the same old arguments (toferio!). MO suckysucks, move on.
    Thats funny. Thgose "arguments" would not be valid if MO and SV were not making the SAME mistakes- In fact, they continue to Top themselves and after 2+ years of release cannot put out a properly working Xpac even with an 8 month delay (and no patches or fixes during that entire time)  
    I think you misunderstood me. Im simply asking, why do you even care?

     

    Why do you care why he cares?

    Why do you bother posting if you DONT care?

    Why is this about him/us or anyone else other than SV and MO?

    Why do we discuss MMORPGs or any other form of entertainment at all?

    -If you do not like it and are not going to add to the discussion (instead trying to make it about people who post) stop clicking into this Forum.

    Your given arguments arent particularly strong since this is the first time ive visited this forum/posted in quite a while, whereas the people Im posting about were always here when I was active and are still here every time I come back to the forum. But to answer your questions:

    -I dont particularly care, Im just curious.

    -Because it only took 15 seconds of my time.

    -Because the OP was referring to the people posting about SV and MO.

    -There's a difference between discussing MMORPGS you like or are looking forward to and bashing on a game thats been on life support for 2 and a half years and is played by a handful of gamers

    -If you are enraged, take a break to cool off and return later to resume your hate.

    -do you even lift?

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Edmonds, WAPosts: 2,365Member Uncommon
    MO's hate was generated by the lack of knowledge of the developer. I loved MO, it was really fun when I played it. It made me actually think and try to go figure out things due to just dropping me into the world. Originally I thought this was a good idea on their part, now I think it's because they were too lazy to include any sort of tutorial or explanation. MO could have been awesome, Henrik is just horrible at leading a company. He hires people who have no prior experience, which would be okay if they even had one programmer who knew what they were doing. I remember when they got a patcher coded from a member of the community. The company itself lives off of Henriks dads money.
  • ShmackpappyShmackpappy Grand Island, NYPosts: 75Member
    I'm not sure why people care so much one way or the other.  It is, after all, just a game.  Really people, it is. 
  • ltankltank Fort Myers, FLPosts: 288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cyde77
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Cyde77

     


    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    Originally posted by Cyde77 Defo agree with op, Hercules and Inferno were going at it for a long time but I havent seen them in ages, but 2-3 years on since most of these people quit during beta or early release, theres still people here every day hating repeating the same old arguments (toferio!). MO suckysucks, move on.
    Thats funny. Thgose "arguments" would not be valid if MO and SV were not making the SAME mistakes- In fact, they continue to Top themselves and after 2+ years of release cannot put out a properly working Xpac even with an 8 month delay (and no patches or fixes during that entire time)  
    I think you misunderstood me. Im simply asking, why do you even care?

     

    Why do you care why he cares?

    Why do you bother posting if you DONT care?

    Why is this about him/us or anyone else other than SV and MO?

    Why do we discuss MMORPGs or any other form of entertainment at all?

    -If you do not like it and are not going to add to the discussion (instead trying to make it about people who post) stop clicking into this Forum.

    Your given arguments arent particularly strong since this is the first time ive visited this forum/posted in quite a while, whereas the people Im posting about were always here when I was active and are still here every time I come back to the forum. But to answer your questions:

    -I dont particularly care, Im just curious.

    -Because it only took 15 seconds of my time.

    -Because the OP was referring to the people posting about SV and MO.

    -There's a difference between discussing MMORPGS you like or are looking forward to and bashing on a game thats been on life support for 2 and a half years and is played by a handful of gamers

    -If you are enraged, take a break to cool off and return later to resume your hate.

    -do you even lift?

    Notice how he completely avoided your question. I believe they can't honestly analyze their actions because they are afraid of what they might see in themselves and realize that they have wasted time hating on a game for years and years after they last played it. Very obsessive.

  • JorlJorl SunderlandPosts: 257Member
    Originally posted by ZekkCC

    I don't play MO.  I haven't played MO since probably about 3 months after release and I wasn't happy about the state of the game.  I was wrong when I decided to promote Mortal Online and encouraged people to give it a try.  That being said, that amount of hate/anger/effort(whichever one applies)  in these forums directed at MO just astounds me.  I don't think I've ever seen people hate a company more or for close to this long a period of time.  Some of the people here were people I was arguing with around two years ago.  Do you not have better things to do by now?

     

    So my question is, why?  Y Umadbros?

     

    :)

    My friend, you were/are not wrong to encourage people to try something different. I think its important to have people who encourage people to help them what they are really looking for, at least thats what this website was about, infact it still is but sadly it attracts Trolls, QQer's and angry people who don't get out much.

    I personally would like to try out this game, but I had difficulty with the patcher and so I gave up.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    It's not about being mad.  It's about looking at the forum feed and seeing a Mortal Online post.  It's about taking 20 seconds to post that the idea of Mortal Online had all of the promise you could want in a sandbox game.  However, the development team behind it doesn't have the talent or experience to pull it off.  And that is frustrating to people who have been waiting fifteen years, since Ultima Online, for a sandbox that is worthy of being played past a trial period.

     

    People have their own opinions.  Just accept it and stop asking why.

  • JorlJorl SunderlandPosts: 257Member
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    It's not about being mad.  It's about looking at the forum feed and seeing a Mortal Online post.  It's about taking 20 seconds to post that the idea of Mortal Online had all of the promise you could want in a sandbox game.  However, the development team behind it doesn't have the talent or experience to pull it off.  And that is frustrating to people who have been waiting fifteen years, since Ultima Online, for a sandbox that is worthy of being played past a trial period.

     

    People have their own opinions.  Just accept it and stop asking why.

    I can understand that we all have opinions, but its how people address them.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member

    The people who keep asking "why do you care?" should ask themselves the same question.

    This is an MMO discussion forum. If you have a problem with people voicing their opinions about MMOs, you are obviously in the wrong place.

    And even though some posters here are pretty commited, there is no need to resort to the "hater conspiracy" theory when it comes to the negativity on these boards. SV has done a splendid job of alienating their fanbase and producing an endless stream of bad press all by themselves - with devs like that there is no need for haters.

     

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member
    Originally posted by Jorl
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    It's not about being mad.  It's about looking at the forum feed and seeing a Mortal Online post.  It's about taking 20 seconds to post that the idea of Mortal Online had all of the promise you could want in a sandbox game.  However, the development team behind it doesn't have the talent or experience to pull it off.  And that is frustrating to people who have been waiting fifteen years, since Ultima Online, for a sandbox that is worthy of being played past a trial period.

     

    People have their own opinions.  Just accept it and stop asking why.

    I can understand that we all have opinions, but its how people address them.

    You're not going to change them.  That much you should know.  It's just how it is.  I tried Mortal Online when it was first released.  I thought it was going to be great.  Then I played it and my opinion changed drastically.  I followed it and new content and expansions brought more problems.  The most simple fixes weren't fixed.  I lost respect for the company, the developers and the game itself.  They spent too much time trying to figure out how to breed horses and have dynamic weather and wind, and many other crazy, never before seen, mechanics that take a huge chunk of time out of developing the basic core of the game.  Their priorities are way off and their customer service and communicatoin, in my opinion, is horrible.

     

    So, when I see a post on Mortal Online, I check in.  Not because I hate it, but because I'm waiting for that glimmer of hope.  I'm disappointed every time.  I leave my two cents, which isn't generally positive, and I leave.  The facts are that the game has largely been a failure and it has disappointed many gamers.  That's where your hate is coming from.  Plus, this is a forum for MMORPG's, so people are going to talk about it.  What do you think will happen in a game forum that has disappointed most of the people who have tried playing it?

     

    Don't lump everyone together and say anyone who posts here is a hater with no life.  I'm willing to bet that there are only a few who post here that do it just to be heard, while the rest of us just check in from time to time.

     

  • CroniteLoreCroniteLore EnglandiumPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by Biskop

    The people who keep asking "why do you care?" should ask themselves the same question.

    This is an MMO discussion forum. If you have a problem with people voicing their opinions about MMOs, you are obviously in the wrong place.

    And even though some posters here are pretty commited, there is no need to resort to the "hater conspiracy" theory when it comes to the negativity on these boards. SV has done a splendid job of alienating their fanbase and producing an endless stream of bad press all by themselves - with devs like that there is no need for haters.

     

    Biskop is right.  That said it don't excuse some of the more rabid freak-show comments we see. Love or hate SV there really isn't an excuse for some or the turd ville shite we see here. OK I'm an acknowled fanboi and I do like MO (most of the time) but seriously - would be nice to see more gentlemanly debate rather that the frothing we see, yes I can froth with the best of them but I don't go out of my way to cause offence. We DO all love sandbox so surely that should unite rather than divide us.

    Turd attack i/c.

     

    "In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank

  • CroniteLoreCroniteLore EnglandiumPosts: 99Member
    wow - 22 mins have gone -I must be in fer it

    "In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank

  • LahuzerLahuzer BorPosts: 668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Jorl
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    It's not about being mad.  It's about looking at the forum feed and seeing a Mortal Online post.  It's about taking 20 seconds to post that the idea of Mortal Online had all of the promise you could want in a sandbox game.  However, the development team behind it doesn't have the talent or experience to pull it off.  And that is frustrating to people who have been waiting fifteen years, since Ultima Online, for a sandbox that is worthy of being played past a trial period.

     

    People have their own opinions.  Just accept it and stop asking why.

    I can understand that we all have opinions, but its how people address them.

    You're not going to change them.  That much you should know.  It's just how it is.  I tried Mortal Online when it was first released.  I thought it was going to be great.  Then I played it and my opinion changed drastically.  I followed it and new content and expansions brought more problems.  The most simple fixes weren't fixed.  I lost respect for the company, the developers and the game itself.  They spent too much time trying to figure out how to breed horses and have dynamic weather and wind, and many other crazy, never before seen, mechanics that take a huge chunk of time out of developing the basic core of the game.  Their priorities are way off and their customer service and communicatoin, in my opinion, is horrible.

     

    So, when I see a post on Mortal Online, I check in.  Not because I hate it, but because I'm waiting for that glimmer of hope.  I'm disappointed every time.  I leave my two cents, which isn't generally positive, and I leave.  The facts are that the game has largely been a failure and it has disappointed many gamers.  That's where your hate is coming from.  Plus, this is a forum for MMORPG's, so people are going to talk about it.  What do you think will happen in a game forum that has disappointed most of the people who have tried playing it?

     

    Don't lump everyone together and say anyone who posts here is a hater with no life.  I'm willing to bet that there are only a few who post here that do it just to be heard, while the rest of us just check in from time to time.

     

    Well, I can tell you most people that play MO right now, are all agreeing that the shape of MO as of today, not as it was two years ago, is better then it has ever been. And we actually play the game now to know this, not only read about it like some here do to base their "facts" on how bad SV and MO are. Is it where it should be? Not at all. But it´s more playable then ever. SV brings us new patches on a regular bases. They communicate more or less on a daily bases with their community, and really seem to listen and care for what we have to say. So I´m really hopefull, that if they keep this momentum going, they very soon can start to promote the game.

    Personally I´ve grown tired of coming here to "defend" MO and SV. I much rather play the game and have fun with it. When I go to MMORPG these days I rarely come here, cause it´s the same people, using the same arguments as they did two years ago, and it´s just boring. But some like to spend hours upon hours to write about how much SV sux at doing this and that, and well, we all like different things I guess. I much rather login into MO after this. So take care all. Keep the pointless forum war going.

  • CroniteLoreCroniteLore EnglandiumPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by Lahuzer
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Jorl
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    It's not about being mad.  It's about looking at the forum feed and seeing a Mortal Online post.  It's about taking 20 seconds to post that the idea of Mortal Online had all of the promise you could want in a sandbox game.  However, the development team behind it doesn't have the talent or experience to pull it off.  And that is frustrating to people who have been waiting fifteen years, since Ultima Online, for a sandbox that is worthy of being played past a trial period.

     

    People have their own opinions.  Just accept it and stop asking why.

    I can understand that we all have opinions, but its how people address them.

    You're not going to change them.  That much you should know.  It's just how it is.  I tried Mortal Online when it was first released.  I thought it was going to be great.  Then I played it and my opinion changed drastically.  I followed it and new content and expansions brought more problems.  The most simple fixes weren't fixed.  I lost respect for the company, the developers and the game itself.  They spent too much time trying to figure out how to breed horses and have dynamic weather and wind, and many other crazy, never before seen, mechanics that take a huge chunk of time out of developing the basic core of the game.  Their priorities are way off and their customer service and communicatoin, in my opinion, is horrible.

     

    So, when I see a post on Mortal Online, I check in.  Not because I hate it, but because I'm waiting for that glimmer of hope.  I'm disappointed every time.  I leave my two cents, which isn't generally positive, and I leave.  The facts are that the game has largely been a failure and it has disappointed many gamers.  That's where your hate is coming from.  Plus, this is a forum for MMORPG's, so people are going to talk about it.  What do you think will happen in a game forum that has disappointed most of the people who have tried playing it?

     

    Don't lump everyone together and say anyone who posts here is a hater with no life.  I'm willing to bet that there are only a few who post here that do it just to be heard, while the rest of us just check in from time to time.

     

    Well, I can tell you most people that play MO right now, are all agreeing that the shape of MO as of today, not as it was two years ago, is better then it has ever been. And we actually play the game now to know this, not only read about it like some here do to base their "facts" on how bad SV and MO are. Is it where it should be? Not at all. But it´s more playable then ever. SV brings us new patches on a regular bases. They communicate more or less on a daily bases with their community, and really seem to listen and care for what we have to say. So I´m really hopefull, that if they keep this momentum going, they very soon can start to promote the game.

    Personally I´ve grown tired of coming here to "defend" MO and SV. I much rather play the game and have fun with it. When I go to MMORPG these days I rarely come here, cause it´s the same people, using the same arguments as they did two years ago, and it´s just boring. But some like to spend hours upon hours to write about how much SV sux at doing this and that, and well, we all like different things I guess. I much rather login into MO after this. So take care all. Keep the pointless forum war going.

    Oh Man you're gonna get it in the ass now!! Standby!!!

    "In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank

  • HodoHodo Raeford, NCPosts: 542Member

    I wasnt mad at MO, I was disappointed, which in many ways is worse.

     

    The game claimed to be the next UO, which was arguably one of the best MMO Sandboxes in history.   But it fell WAY short, and then instead of attempting to make up for those short comings, they in turn listened to a group of PK PVPers who didnt want a sandbox, but wanted a twitch combat server and nothing else.  

     

    The game went down this path for months, almost a year till I quit and moved on to other games.   I couldnt justify anyone spending the money I did on getting the game then playing the game, for the amount of headaches, bugs and crashes that showed up with every inept patch that SV released.    It was like paying for a Beta that was slowly reverting to alpha stages of development.    They added more to the game but it only got worse with each addition. 

     

    Need I remind people that it took almost 3 years to get Tindrem in game and open.  

    So much crap, so little quality.

  • psykobillypsykobilly NYC, NYPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by Lahuzer

    Well, I can tell you most people that play MO right now, are all agreeing that the shape of MO as of today, not as it was two years ago, is better then it has ever been. And we actually play the game now to know this, not only read about it like some here do to base their "facts" on how bad SV and MO are.

    Sorry but your words are contradicted by the threads on the MO forums.  I've played MO in the last month and it is at its most complicated state its ever been in... but that does not mean it is in its 'best' or 'most fun' state.  Beta was certainly way more fun than it is now.

    You have testimony on the forums from people like Energyo whose entire guild quit after coming back post-awakening because the game feels more like a chore than something fun.

    Mortal Online is more chore than fun.  What is it that you do that is fun for you in game?  Maybe you could describe it for these nice people. ;)

  • SHOE788SHOE788 Ankeny, IAPosts: 700Member
    Originally posted by ZekkCC

    I don't play MO.  I haven't played MO since probably about 3 months after release and I wasn't happy about the state of the game.  I was wrong when I decided to promote Mortal Online and encouraged people to give it a try.  That being said, that amount of hate/anger/effort(whichever one applies)  in these forums directed at MO just astounds me.  I don't think I've ever seen people hate a company more or for close to this long a period of time.  Some of the people here were people I was arguing with around two years ago.  Do you not have better things to do by now?

     

    So my question is, why?  Y Umadbros?

     

    :)

    "Why aren't you people doing something useful like...playing video games?"

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    MO is a lot of things, but it certanly isn't easely forgettable. whether you love it (the few) of hate it ( the many) you are going to remember it for a long while.

    It's just so damn close to something so incredibly wonderful....but it never gets there. like the endless tease that just ends up pissing everyone off.

     

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by w4ffl3
    As for me, it's mostly because I think Henrik is a snake oil salesman.  He keeps promising things he can't do, failing to meet deadlines he imposes, and just generally is an incredible failure of a manager.  It's justice in my eyes to see MO doing poorly

    You just described the lead of every sandbox game to come out in the past 5 years.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • GenadiGenadi BrisbanePosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by ltank

    Notice how he completely avoided your question. I believe they can't honestly analyze their actions because they are afraid of what they might see in themselves and realize that they have wasted time hating on a game for years and years after they last played it. Very obsessive.

     

    First off most of us have said we've played recently, secondly you're the one who's avoided question after question while you continue on your crusade of making MO look even worse. Very obsessive.

     

    Originally posted by Lahuzer

    Well, I can tell you most people that play MO right now, are all agreeing that the shape of MO as of today, not as it was two years ago, is better then it has ever been. And we actually play the game now to know this, not only read about it like some here do to base their "facts" on how bad SV and MO are. Is it where it should be? Not at all. But it´s more playable then ever. SV brings us new patches on a regular bases. They communicate more or less on a daily bases with their community, and really seem to listen and care for what we have to say. So I´m really hopefull, that if they keep this momentum going, they very soon can start to promote the game.

     

    So much wrong with the above post, most people playing do not agree with that at all and in fact the few hundred left playing I'd say only 20 or 30 are left from two years ago to even make that call. They do not communicate on a daily basis, unless it's regarding their donation scheme which they seem all too happy to talk about. They've lost the games two biggest guilds due to communication in the past 6 months, that's a fact not an opinion like what you gave.

    Two weeks ago in IRC Discord admitted himself he didn't know why the game is dying and that there's no more than 200 people left playing. The LGM can see the fail but the fanbois are always the last to see.

  • deathshrouddeathshroud londonPosts: 1,366Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by w4ffl3
    As for me, it's mostly because I think Henrik is a snake oil salesman.  He keeps promising things he can't do, failing to meet deadlines he imposes, and just generally is an incredible failure of a manager.  It's justice in my eyes to see MO doing poorly

    You just described the lead of every sandbox game to come out in the past 5 years.

    this pretty much

    there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  • w4ffl3w4ffl3 Gainesville, FLPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by w4ffl3
    As for me, it's mostly because I think Henrik is a snake oil salesman.  He keeps promising things he can't do, failing to meet deadlines he imposes, and just generally is an incredible failure of a manager.  It's justice in my eyes to see MO doing poorly

    You just described the lead of every sandbox game to come out in the past 5 years.

    I agree totally.  The first competent team to make a sandbox MMO will stand to make a decent amount of money...  Won't be as big as WoW or anything like that, but I think an actual well-made sandbox MMO could easily do as well as EVE...

  • ToferioToferio RandomPosts: 1,405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deathshroud
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by w4ffl3
    As for me, it's mostly because I think Henrik is a snake oil salesman.  He keeps promising things he can't do, failing to meet deadlines he imposes, and just generally is an incredible failure of a manager.  It's justice in my eyes to see MO doing poorly

    You just described the lead of every sandbox game to come out in the past 5 years.

    this pretty much

    It's a shame that incompetent teams take on such complex games, only to later realize that just a raction of their promises can actually be implemented.

  • EnergyoEnergyo Huron, OHPosts: 67Member

    What psykobilly said is correct. The game is much more complicated now and more of a chore now than it was 2 years ago. I would rather the game patch itself to pre-butchery. I will admit that I am playing now and that the last patch and next patch kind of gives me some hope. But that hope comes from them fixing several weapon balance issues that has been in the game since release and more importnatly, moving skills like skinning to secondary which may just give fighters a chance to be out in the wild farming again.

    The reason I decided to keep playing even with the many issues and low population is because there just simply is not another option for me. What I find a little funny is some of the names that pop up on these forums that are constantly making the same posts and are very carefully watching SV for any mistakes they make. It is almost like a few of the posters here are obsessed with hating SV. But whatever, I don't really care I just find it kind of funny. 

    The people that are currently playing MO mostly agree the game is not in great shape. Everyone acknowledges that the population is down and things can be much better. I also want to throw out there that it was not SV who started begging for money, the MO community wanted to donate to SV to help game development. Now I know that there is deep hatred toward SV for some reason but does this not favor SV at least a little? That there is a community so dedicated to the game that they are willing to throw thousands of dollars at? There is also more subs then I think some people realize, including myself. Many are not logging in to the game and are keeping their accounts active to support the game. I think that should say a lot about the type of game it is.

    Take my post however you'd like to take it. I've been very very critical over the direction and development of MO. I have been vocal about it in game, in the forums (both here and on MO's forums), and on IRC. I don't think Henrik is a guy who is trying to rip people off, it really does not make much sense. If it were all about the money then the game should have been shut down by now. Awakening was not a great expansion, honestly it should never have been billed as an expansion. What awakening did was allow SV to fix and patch systems at a faster rate. They had to rebuild many of the core systems of MO, that was part of the Awakening expansion which took an enormous amount of time but did not right away show those results with its release. The initial development of Mortal Online was clearly done by many incompetent programmers, if not incompetent programmers it was just poorly managed which ultimately lead to many of its systems being poorly coded resulting in slow patch times, etc. 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ZekkCC

     I wasn't happy about the state of the game. ... I decided to promote Mortal Online?

    Uh. Why? I mean, you admit you never liked it, why switch to promoting it?

    Just curious, the game's never even shown up on my radar.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • EnergyoEnergyo Huron, OHPosts: 67Member

    Did not want a huge long super wall of text post so going to continue a couple of thoughts onto this post.

    Mortal Online can still be a great game, there have been a changes going on with its staff (GM's) which have been for the better. Discord is definitely still possibly a problem, not sure if he has learned from past mistakes or not, but probably should not have his job for the major issues that he is evidenced to. Still, while Discord may have been an issue in the past I doubt that those problems will be reoccuring.

    Where Mortal Online has been struggling is through the development of many complex systems that give very little fun gameplay, putting more work into the game. The balance between complexity and simply fun is something that I think they are attempting to address. I still believe to this day that butchery is what put the game down to its current state. There are many that will disagree with me on that statement but I think if you were to think about it logically it is quite obvious on its major issues.

    1. Butchery made it where players had to take carcass to a butcher who had to be next to a butchery table and butcher it. Each stack of carcass is approximately 1 minute and 30 seconds of standing doing nothing making this a boring JOB.

    2. Butchery had made it where fighters were next to useless in the wilderness, tamers could just tame the creatures they needed and walk it to wherever and butcher it.

    3. Hotspots were thus removed from the game.

    4. With no hotspots PKs have to resort to camping guard zones around towns in hope for pvp or battle in Kranesh or GK as most random PvP encounters were now removed.

    5. With Awakening wandering guards were introduced and would roam outside towns. This forced PKs to have to find other ways to find action. Problem is now they can't fight people outside towns like Fabernum like they used to and they cannot find people out in the wilderness. The game then becomes a snoozefest for them and nearly all PvP RPK guilds have quit the game which is why it appears the population has dropped further after the release of Awakening. Those guilds are now gone.

    6. Butchery made solo play incredibly difficult, borderline impossible. The need for multiple accounts to enjoy the game was increased with the implementation of butchery. Now the big argument for butchery here is that "all you have to do is take the carcass to town and have a butcher butcher it for you, it's just one more step". No it's not just one more step. I honestly do not think there needs to be much explaining to this on why it is not just one more step, I'm thinking anyone with common sense can figure out why this becomes a pain in the ass.

    7. Butchery made it harder for newer players to get into the game. If you jump into any MMO, see a limited amount of mobs (which is already a red flag) and when you kill the mobs given you cannot do anything with the loot it simply is offputting. As a veteran it is annoying, how do you think a new player feels about having to hunt down a butcher that is non existent. So the counter-argument usually to this is that "if the population was better more butchers would be around." "You can put the carcass up on the trade house or you can go to the forums and ask for a butcher". This is another one of those things that for me it seems like it does not take much thought in to figure out why this is severely flawed. One should not have to result to a tradehouse or forum just to make simple coin from killing basic mobs. I really do not believe I need to dig deeper in to this as it is like point 6 I made, common sense should figure out why this is a pain in the ass.

    8. The counter to butchery so people can make coin are Undead mobs and Bandits. I am sorry but anyone who says that making money through this was is just lieing or not playing the game. Since Awakening I have killed approximately 300 bandits, each bandit drops a head worth 50 silver. This is about 150 gold, you'll get a few extra gold from other stuff it drops. Now that may not seem that bad but think about the time it took into bringing down that many bandits. Not only does it take a lot of time but you will also go through many weapons and armor, bandages, arrows, whatever it is that you use. A steel greatblade currently costs around 15-25g. A set of armor costs about 20g. To kill that many bandits would cost you most likely more money than you are able to bring in netting you a loss of money. Skeletons and such are only okay money for noobs, other than that you still need a butcher.

    9. Butchery made it difficult on guilds to find things to do. This might sound silly to some but think about this. As a guild leader needing materials to support constant PvP fighting you need to come up with ways of keeping materials in stock. One way is to farm money up and buy materials from trade guilds like Forsaken. Another is to go gather them yourelf. The days of getting together a bunch of FIGHTERS and going to the jungle to kill mobs and storing scales in the Jungle Camp bank are gone. This was a fun experience, gave guilds something to do and also put more wilderness encounters in the game. Then after gathering thousands of scales you would have to run out of the jungle in a group to whichever destination, for us it was Fabernum, hoping not to get PKed along the way. That's one scenario that is totally gone. I think with that one scenario you can see how everything else as a guild is effected when it comes to getting people together to work on things of that sort. Think about how this is done now. You can go with naked tamers and tame stuff then run them out of the jungle and lead them to where they will be slaughtered (them being shore prowers) and then butchered. Or you can go down there kill 1 (one) shore prower and be done because it drops so much carcass (carcass drops may have been altered with the last patch but still the same thing remains, you instead kill 2 more then...). It's a boring process, people don't like to do this and they just quit. It's too much work, too much downtime, not enough risk and did I say boring already? 

    Now with the points I have made above (by the way there are many more ways butchery has effected the game; the market, inflation, downtime.) I think it should be clear as to why a system like butchery has Mortal Onlines population down to an all time low. You can also just think back at when butchery was first implemented, the population dropped drastically. When butchery is brought up as something of one of the core issues to the game there tends to be a few people who will angrily disagree and think that you do not know what you're talking about. All of my above points are 100% factual, I'm not sure that you can get many people to play the game described above. I think the current population of the game backs that up, it has changed everything from PvP to PvE, to crafting, trade, economy, etc. 

    Now with all of that said the last patch and next patch attempts to address some of these issues. By making skinning secondary it is possible that we may get some of our hotspots back. The downtime of killing 1 creature and then having to sit there and skin it for 30+ seconds is likely to be an issue but it is a step in the right direction. IF the patch does its intended things then I would expect things to become less of a job in MO and more fun. (I get that this post may not exactly be on topic but it does present issues within the game currently and SV's attempt to fix them).

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