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Developers: STOP MAKING NEWER GAMES MORE SIMPLE/EMPTY THAN OLDER GAMES
ignore_me
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
This is an extension of the article about systems, but I think this needs to be communicated to the developers. EAch new game or sequel to an older MMO comes out with better graphics, but far less meat to the game.
If you make a WoW2, it should not have less classes, no ability to sit down, less areas to explore, etc. IT SHOULD HAVE MORE.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Comments
Dear ignore_me,
I see you want to have more difficult, 'full' games. However, I believe that the suggestions you make would actually damage the playerbase of my game considerably.
'Difficulty' in a video game is relative. You may be an MMO veteran, so games are much easier from your perspective, but my playerbase ranges from veterans to newbies. In order to make my game appeal to people who aren't already very good at MMOs, I must make varying difficulty levels. If you want to play my game but have some more difficulty, feel free to self-impose restrictions on yourself or try variable-difficulty content when you are maximum level.
My game may have less classes than EQ or Vanguard, but each class has much more variety in builds and playstyle than any of those one-dimensional classes. This pretty much makes the convoulted class lists of the past obsolete. Each class has the ability to succeed in many roles, while the classes in games like Vanguard usually serve only one or two positions in an organized group. My game has the same amount of build variety, if not more, than the games of old - you just don't choose one of them at character creation, you choose a flavour.
Because my game has varying degrees of difficulty and has compacted frivolous choices into 'meatier' packages, I believe my game has taken MMOs in the correct direction for the future.
Sincerely,
A fictional game developer that probably reflects the mindset of modern game developers.
Ban I think that this is a psychological issue that has to do with the design becoming too abreviated and thus eliminating the perception of choice in players' experience. There is a way to have the cake and eat it too by essentially making games easy to play but hard to master. I think that the plurality of classes is much more satisfying long term than having a few classes with expansive trees.
The time/cost element to this will have a negative effect on your game long term, as you can charge less for a crappy hot dog, but then you go into the crappy hot dog category. You will get the casuals, but we see how that goes. 2 months and your game is toast.
New games/sequels that come out with less features than the previous versions are a disappointment to those who know better, and for those who don't they can experience empty game play like anyone else, and will leave.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
This excuse of catering to Newbies is used way too many times.
Of course, game companies makes games to generate profits, they aren't making games just so we can play it, they have to make it so more people buy it.
So you can't just say that because you added more depth, than its okay, the truth is they didn't make the same amount of content as the first generation game is because, If i can sell the rest as expansions, then why shouldn't I.
An good example would be WOW have years of contents added, could I make WOW2 with everything WOW1 has and more, sure, but then I can also make WOW2 have 75% of contents as WOW1 and sell the next 25% as expansions, it not only help generate more revenue, it also gives developers more time for more content in the future.
Not only can they sell that 25% as 2 or 3 expansions, they can also use sections of it as free updates. Its all business.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
In the past how many roles were needed for raids, PvP or PvE? Three right? Tank, Healer, Crowd Control. How many are needed now? Tank, Healer, DPS right? Now ask yourself how many classes to you really need to fulfill those functions? Basically 3 right? Now how many classes do YOU need to feel like a special snowflake? Six? Nine? Twelve? Remember with each class introduced to the mix it adds nothing but illusions for the players and balancing nightmares for devs. Along with nerf wars, alienation of players by players for groups and overall problems.
Look I understand, when you've been raised in the jungle for so long and you move to the city the first thing you notice is how easy the people in the city have it. But truth be told the city has it's own set of problems people living there have to deal with. You have to learn to adapt bro cause cities are getting bigger and jungles are getting smaller.
P.S. If you have a hard time releating to that last point replace jungle with old mmos and city with new mmos.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
No, not three. Zero. Raids are unnecessary.
If you balance your game around raids, then your game is going to be terrible. Raids are going to be bad because they're raids, and balancing around raids will make the rest of the game bad, too.
I don't believe it is an excuse but companies want to EXPAND their player base, e.i. make more money. So to make money, they have to cater to as many players as possible. If a game just catered to the players on this forum, well I don't think one could - too many people have disparate opinions on the same topic. To think of gaming companies in any other way is a disservice to them and yourself. Yes, many of them were gamers and like gaming but, money reality sets in.
I listed 3 types of gameplay not one. (see red) Take either of the 3 as your focus for any given mmo and the outcome of my point is the same. You don't need a bunch of convoluted classes to fulfill three basic functions that mmos have been using since the 1990's.
Whether you like raids or not is not the point of this discussion. Nor is the point that if raids make mmos bad. Simplicity in the name of progression has always been wired into humans since the dawn of man. That's why it's not suprising to me that this mindset has crept into the very fabric of our hobbies. And don't think for a minute that mmos are the only hobies that have gotten cheaper and easier to do in the years. Pick one:
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Raids arent part of the discussion but your first paragraph is all about raids lol
But back in the old days we didnt have raids. We made our own battlegrounds.
We didnt have to wait for content. We made our own. Player content > everything else
Players mattered, economy, crafting, adventuring in the old days. Todays its ruined, none of that is worthwhile.
Social and game features are at an all time low in todays games.
MMO's today are nothing more than console style rpgs that have half the content as most the new console rpgs lol.
Need some complexity, mmo's are not single player rpgs and the dumbing down of the genre will be hard to reverse.
People n here crying so much about how all the new games are too easy, dont have any content, have no features.........but then turn around and defend the dumbing down of mmo's......???!!!????
Fact is mmorpg's should be more, much more. Doesnt mean you have to take part in everything. But it should be in there as an option. New games give you no option and thats why so many so called "epic" mmo's fail after just a few months....... GW2, SWTOR.....must i go on? Reason these fail is because they are not true mmorpgs.
I think half the community have no clue what a true mmo is anymore and settle for the garbage relesed. Im sick of console games, i want a true and epic mmo with all the features so i can pick and chose, not be led around on a leash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you're talking about either PVP or PVE outside of raids or other large groups (as opposed to small groups!), then your entire post is completely nonsensical. PVP doesn't have any notion of tanking. Good PVE usually doesn't, either. PVP based around having pure healers tend to be rather bad PVP, as it's too dominated by whichever side happens to have the healers. The same is true for small-scale PVE. Players hate, hate, hate being crowd controlled in PVP. And having a class whose primary purpose is crowd control means the class will be nearly useless in small-scale PVE.
Thats what I meant, its not because they can't, or because of depth in 1 class that they have improved. Mainly its all because its a business to make money. And to make money, they need to attract more players, and to attract more players, they have to cater to other genres. If making a game easier, you get a 5% increase in sales, guess what, they will make it easier. IF adding some shooter mechanic in the game attracts all the MW and COD players from their polls, then there will be some shooter mechanics. The old days of making games unique and different is gone and the days of making familiar games is in. Same with the old days of making a complete game is gone and the days of having DLC and Expansions is in.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Sorry - we don't know if GW2 is a failure - the jury is still out on that one unless you have a Time Machine and know that for a fact. Otherwise it is your opinion only. GW2 is an MMO and your opinion doesnot alter that fact one iota.
I think all the "so called" experts here, in this community should, try and write their own MMO and see how hard it really is. My wife writes scienntific software for a living and it hasn't gotten easier for her it has gotten harder because people want more things in the software. I would like them to try designing and writing one - you might actually learn how hard it is.
Most MMO designers and programmers are gamers by heart. They love what they do or they wouldn't be doing it.
Most modern MMO's are not console RPGs ported to the PC - that is just a silly comment.
I don't know what games you've been playing but none of the games I've seen don't have tanks in PvP. It is a PvE-only role.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Couldn't agree more. I think it's stupid someone even has to say this. lol
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR|SotA|BDO]
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Your wife should find something easier. These people go to college and get paid very well for their abilities. Hard for one person is easy for another. Still no excuse, there isnt just one person working on a team there are dozens. Games before had more features and were easier to make, but now games are more dumbed down and harder to make? That makes no sense.
And console ported...... no i said they are nothing more than console "style" rpgs. Means same game play, same linear movements, being led around on a leash, no content once you get to end game, and full of eye candy. Which majority of the new mmo's are like this.
More is not better, better is better. I take quality over quantity any day. In anything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Personally i think the Classless approch is much better in terms of difficulty because you need to put togeather something that actually works. unless you cheap out and run to the internet to give you your class you will realize that building a useable build is harder than it looks. Much harder then say, spending Talent or trait points in a small preset number of traits in a single line tree. I do however agree with the expansion of zones. TSW is tackleing this by adding new zones when they finish them. Case and Point Tokyo is set to be released in 2013.
Basically the idea that if you add more carrots to chase in the game, this would make the game better is somewhat weak. Its when you include a complexity in a Simple setting that things really shine.
Einstein once said "any idiot can make something bigger and more complex. it takes a true genious to make something simpler".
For that statement to be true however, you cannot sacrifice functionality for simplicity.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
16 classes or 8 classes with 2 specs each or 4 classes with 4 specs each.
Half a dozen or 6 or 3x2 IMO.
And honestly, compared to older games.... a lot of good things have happened.
Some have been taken too far, at the expense of other elements, this is for certain.
The REALLY obvious simplifications are annoying and do anger me though.
Like the WoW talent tree fiasco.
And I personally like having complex stat interactions that force you to think and plan and experiment etc.
But only a few games seem to be going the route of simplifying everything way too far.
Many games are adding further complexity through systems and tiered / layered progression mechanics.
I have the answer!!! - Stop buying these new, Barnified games.....that will put a halt to their production....that's really the only way to eliminate it. If not, be prepared for complete overhaul, simplification, "platforming" of "The Artist Formerly Known As Massively Multiplayer Role-Playing Game".
As far as more classes, I love more classes than less...that's more for aesthetics than anything else. I truly believe bunching 3 classes into one isn't some great new thing, it's developers finding ways to cut costs and save time.
As for the argument that many games today have enhanced skill progression, that's true and false. If you use EQ as your rule, sure, they have. If you use Anarchy Online as your rule, no they haven't. (and multiple tiered/leveled skills/signets or whatever does not make enhanced skill progression)...the idea that thought and planning are required is. The idea that only a few mistakes in your build you've created can ruin your toon for the rest of the game, not just the next fight, is what I'm looking for. (of course some resets should be available...but not full reset anytime, anywhere).
These days are far over though. I do look foward to The Repopulation, but other than that...it's all gonna be mainstream, corporate, insta-profit crap.
I Disagree with the ruin your toon part of botching a build. I do agree that it should slow you down, stop you from accessing new content, and become a massive thorn in your side simply for learning sake. But forcing a reroll will only push people away from the game itself. Im not saying no punishment for botching a toon, im saying botchable but fixable by going back and redoing old content you can survive in until its fixed.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
WoW made its entire business on having less than the games that came before it. WoW is so feature lite its kind of pathetic, especially conisdering their budget.
Ok I'll try this one more time before I head into work. My whole point is (and always was) that one of the OP's points made is that we need more classes in mmos. I beg to differ with my stance that more classes does not equate better mmos. And on his point of making mmos more simple (as stated in the actual title), I pointed out that striving for simplicity itself is weaved into human nature and progression through simplicity has always been a dominate driving force in all things we do.
So much so that it's seeped into the very hobby that many of us enjoy and others we would have found difficult to break into say 10 years ago. So it's no wonder that as time passes on, mmos will get more and more simple. If not in playstyle, they will in how we play them.
Now how in the world did 3 of you happen to attach yourselves (and side track this topic) on to the example I provided that for over a decade we have had 3 dominate gameplay styles (Raid, PvP or PvE) and 3 basic class roles (tank, healer and cc (later switched to dps)) is beyond me. I could care less when you believe raiding was introduced to mmos or what role tanks play in PvP...I mean really? That is not what the topic was remotely about. Either way I hope that clears things up a bit and some of you recheck my post and you'll notice things like: raid, PvP or PvE. Notice the "or" there? It does not mean "and"
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I think you are using this statement incorrectly. What Einstein means is that it takes a true genious to build something simpler that can offer the same thing as something big and complex. This does not relate to the game world, but rather, how the game world was developed. Easier development design while granting the same or better game world.
I agree with that...my main point there is that it a reroll on skills and such should not be so accessible. You should be punished for bad decisions and rewarded for good ones.