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We dont want games - we want worlds.

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  • CecropiaCecropia The Great White North, ONPosts: 3,471Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

    You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

    LOL. Mind boggingly ridiculous!

    I honestly won't be surprised if in a couple of years we start seeing posts expressing how it's just too much of a chore to walk to the location of the PC and actually take the time to press the power button. 

    It's coming boys and girls and you heard it here first. 

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • 13lake13lake Posts: 295Member Uncommon

    You people want worlds ?

    Here's a world, go check out Star Citizen kickstarter, and check out the pdf for the Millenium Falcon/Firefly(Serenity) ship, and general mechanics of the game, Star Citizen + Occulus Rift+ good Joystick is the closest we gamers will get to a world this decade probably, ...

     

    No advertising no, nothing, read the website, read the kickstarter, read the updates, read the stretch goals, watch the in-game trailer, read the constellation ship pdf and decide for yourself.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Cerc
    And yet this guy will click click click his way through the same dungeon over and over in diablo for hundreds of hours ?!?!
  • CecropiaCecropia The Great White North, ONPosts: 3,471Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Cerc
    And yet this guy will click click click his way through the same dungeon over and over in diablo for hundreds of hours ?!?!

    ...does not compute...does not compute...

    I have now entered The Twilight Zone.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Axxar
    I really enjoyed Skyrim. I didn't think the story or combat system were particularly great, and the characters you meet are very shallow. But the world they've scupted is fantastic, with great attention to detail. It was a joy to explore and behold.

    It was fun for me for a while .. but it got too repetitive and traveling became a chore. Thus, i never finish it.

    I prefer games like Deus Ex or Dishonored where the core gameplay is fun, and interesting things happen all the time.

    Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

    You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

    You will probably laugh, but I completed the game without ever using fast travelling, except to recover a horse I couldn't find - then I would fast travel to my current location to make it appear again.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon

    Saying it again, R.I.P. SWG.

    She had the casual Tuesday content, she had the hardcore friday content. It had to critical crafting and the off line harvesting. Miss ya.

  • BossalinieBossalinie Hattiesburg, MSPosts: 683Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play

    Saying it again, R.I.P. SWG.

    She had the casual Tuesday content, she had the hardcore friday content. It had to critical crafting and the off line harvesting. Miss ya.

    All the plastic surgery in the world couldn't save that hoe.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    I think I just created this same thread last week :)

    You're absolutely right. However, it seems quite a lot of MMO players actually prefer games to worlds, but then again, they're already spoiled for choice.

    Our hope is that the emerging kickstarter projects will eventually produce something that works.

  • CreepProphetCreepProphet LiedekerkePosts: 104Member

    No one has mentioned The Repopulation yet? http://www.therepopulation.com/

    This one looks like the closest I've seen so far to a game that is putting together the elements of a game I'd like to play. Something more like what I heard UO was like or more like SWG. IE, close to what the original poster was mentioning.

    • No levels - you skill up your guns by shooting things (win)
    • Fittings - Like the gear you have, keep the gear, change the fittings. (You don't have to dress like you dove into a crayon box)
    • Player Built Structures - Have a clan? Build a city and populate it, defend it (win)
    • Engagements - critters coming out of the ground to take over a mining spot or your city, kill them. (come on it's a win)

     

    This is an indipendent game, but it DOES NOT look like vapor ware. The videos they've produced look solid and even the manufacturer of the game engine is excited for release. The Repopulation is currently in Alpha, with a beta hopefully in 2013 from what I've heard/read.

    Moral to the story: MMO's aren't going to change until we buy something new, Kickstarter is one way for us to put our money where our mouth is. We want it, someone is listening, let's buy into it. Now we actually have the opportunity to do so instead of standing on the soap box. Don't get me wrong, standing on the soap box once in a while is good for you.

    Let's tell the game companies that there are some of us that want more out of a game than the Gear Treadmil/Roller Coaster. We're not the most prevalent folks but hey, we have money too.

    Bill Murphy hit the nail on the head with this one: The Problem No Ones Talking About

    Games just feel empty without at least some systems in place that make them feel more like an online hangout/home and less like a sub up to Diablo Online. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing Diablo 3 and Torchlight II, but in an MMO I want more than "Kill, loot, equip" regardless of how challenging the dungeon/mob/boss may be. That's not a world, that's game.

  • CreepProphetCreepProphet LiedekerkePosts: 104Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    I think I just created this same thread last week :)

    You're absolutely right. However, it seems quite a lot of MMO players actually prefer games to worlds, but then again, they're already spoiled for choice.

    Our hope is that the emerging kickstarter projects will eventually produce something that works.

    And you just said what I was going to say in fewer words *facepalms*

    Nice!

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    What narrow? In fact, i think my view is more open .. nothing is sacred .. and all possibility (say without a world) should be considered.

    What i am arguing is that if certain features (like i am forced to spend 20 min traveling before fighting in a dungeon) do not add fun to me, then i do not want it in my game. It is a feature by feature determination.

    No one says atmosphere and story are not important. But i do enjoy the combat and progression first and foremost.

    And why do you think i play MMOs and put up with some of the slower aspect of it? That is because i took the whole picture into account. I can't completely get rid of walking if i like the wow classes, right?

    Narrow because you always seem to view it as combat + feature, not the feature itself, you talk about travelling in the context of it being that thing that prevents you from doing combat, not about travelling itself (even if it is the worst possible thing we can talk about, travelling is quite uneventful usually :( ).

    Dunno, maybe it is a defect, but i do understand people who get the same excitement as you have from killing a monster by mining that rare mineral, respeccing/regearing just so that they can walk in the desert without water, completing that quest, crafting that excellent necklace, trading that recipe, and i want them in my game.

    In general, i think people who "endure" the slower aspects of mmos are well cared for atm, we should look after the people who "endure" combat and progression for a change. :)

    (in b4 "mmos ARE combat and progression" :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    To bring MMO to the future, we have to stop making land scapes, and start putting down Politics, and Government and Laws and Rules in the games that can be used to govern an Virtual World. Instead of utilizing the same Real World Rules and Laws for an Virtual World that it can't govern.

    Having a Virtual Kingdom with a King that does nothing for players, having Guards that doesn't Guard anything, Having Moral Rules of no PKing without any consequences if you do, is Just BullS%it 

    When Game Developers start building a Real Virtual Society and allows Gamers to join, thats when the MMO comes to life. 

    And it would work for all types of MMO's Fantasy, Sci fi, modern...etc

    A couple examples of rules and Laws

    1) players character names aren't seen till given 

    2) player level aren't known till given

    3) player class aren't known till given

    4) Laws can be broken with consequences

    5) Reputation based questing system

    6) Thou shall not get caught when killing other players ( 24 hour account lock )

    7) Thou shall not get caught when stealing ( 6 hour account lock )

    8) Thou shall pay tribute to Local Kings and Law enforcements to decrease account lock  

    And many more that I can't think of atm

    When there is a set law and rule for the game, it allows gamers to live in that environment that isn't real life. Unfortunately it seems that almost all the MMO currently in the market, still utilizes the Real Life Laws and rules and morality that have no place in an Virtual World where consequences aren't real, death has no meaning, and everyone is a killer. 

     

    Just to add some clarification, I don't mean to add realism, I mean add rules and laws. So if we can fast travel by portals, make it so Portal usage is part of that world, not based on Reality. If riding Dinosaurs is part of the Norm in that world, make it so it feels part of that world, instead of something unique in our Real world translated into Virtual excitement. 

    No need for jobs as well, who wants to work in an Virtual world, so make it so having Fun is the Job. We need to stop trying to combine Real World with the Virtual World. Because Virtual World can become anything, with all kind of rules and laws that is used specifically just for specific Virtual Worlds. While you only get one life in Real World, you get infinite life in Virtual World.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • NinevenNineven Peoria, AZPosts: 85Member
    Originally posted by fernetek
    This is EXACTLY why I loved RIFT when it first came out. The danger of towns being taken over by monsters was constant, making it so you had to work with players to protect them. I LOVED it. 

     

    My first week of RIFT was like my first week of my very first MMO...ridiculously exciting and engaging. When Freemarch got taken over I was like "WTF IS HAPPENING I DON'T KNOW BUT I LIKE IT!" 

    RIFT has some VERY good direction, but the arguement remains the same; it is still defined as a themepark MMO. The community is great (especially the Gaiscoich), but that doesn't change what type of game it is. 

    But either way, you are correct sir, and I concur.

  • NinevenNineven Peoria, AZPosts: 85Member

     

    I agree 100%

    Nothing makes me more sad than to see MMO's DE-EVOLVE.

    Back when they just started hitting the market, there were quite a few REALLY WELL DEVELOPED MMO's. Because they took into account the 'idea' of a virtual world, and created them as such. Blizzard was a both a curse and a blessing for the genre, they completely ruined the idea of a virtual world, but at the same time brought MMO's to the forefront, and to the serious masses. Ever since WoW's release, innovative MMO's have gone by the way side, the industry de-evolved to make a buck, which is fucking pathetic and sickening. The most fulfilling part of it, is all of these 'money-maker' games have fucking TANKED HARDCORE. So instead of innovating, yet again they go F2P trying to make money that way - which it has worked, and I like the idea to a certain extent.

    MMORPG's in my opinion have always had the potential to evolve into virtual worlds, and be the best games on the market because of aggressive (but not alienating) innovation. I can sympathize with you man, when I was younger, I didn't want to play Mario Bros. multiplayer - the idea of what I was looking for came when I was playing the original Wing Commander, and they wouldn't let me fly from space down to a planet -  I wanted to feel like I lived in that world. Yet to this day the only game that has come remotely close to doing this is EVE and the original SWG.

    I can tell you the future of MMORPG's ISN'T MMORPG's, it's MMOWSG's - massively multiplayer online world simulation games. The definition plays on realism, without sacrificing the fun factor of the game. As we watch more and more games go F2P, we will soon a movement towards just making money in games as we play them. Take farming gold for example: IT SUCKS because it takes so long. Imagine simply playing your favorite game and at the end of the day looking at your currency, knowing that you just made that money in real cash having fun playing your game. That is the future of the genre, and the first developer that incorporates this http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game with a real cash economy that DOESN'T suck from the grind like Entropia Universe is not only going to redefine the genre, but more than likely tear Blizzard a new asshole.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nineven

     

    I agree 100%

    Nothing makes me more sad than to see MMO's DE-EVOLVE.

    Back when they just started hitting the market, there were quite a few REALLY WELL DEVELOPED MMO's. Because they took into account the 'idea' of a virtual world, and created them as such. Blizzard was a both a curse and a blessing for the genre, they completely ruined the idea of a virtual world, but at the same time brought MMO's to the forefront, and to the serious masses. Ever since WoW's release, innovative MMO's have gone by the way side, the industry de-evolved to make a buck, which is fucking pathetic and sickening. The most fulfilling part of it, is all of these 'money-maker' games have fucking TANKED HARDCORE. So instead of innovating, yet again they go F2P trying to make money that way - which it has worked, and I like the idea to a certain extent.

    MMORPG's in my opinion have always had the potential to evolve into virtual worlds, and be the best games on the market because of aggressive (but not alienating) innovation. I can sympathize with you man, when I was younger, I didn't want to play Mario Bros. multiplayer - the idea of what I was looking for came when I was playing the original Wing Commander, and they wouldn't let me fly from space down to a planet -  I wanted to feel like I lived in that world. Yet to this day the only game that has come remotely close to doing this is EVE and the original SWG.

    I can tell you the future of MMORPG's ISN'T MMORPG's, it's MMOWSG's - massively multiplayer online world simulation games. The definition plays on realism, without sacrificing the fun factor of the game. As we watch more and more games go F2P, we will soon a movement towards just making money in games as we play them. Take farming gold for example: IT SUCKS because it takes so long. Imagine simply playing your favorite game and at the end of the day looking at your currency, knowing that you just made that money in real cash having fun playing your game. That is the future of the genre, and the first developer that incorporates this http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game with a real cash economy that DOESN'T suck from the grind like Entropia Universe is not only going to redefine the genre, but more than likely tear Blizzard a new asshole.

     Blizzard really isn't at fault here, they developed a world , with set rules and laws for the players. Then everyone afterwards, took that same rule and laws set by WOW and changed the landscape. Thats why we are all tired of it, its just the same virtual world rules and laws that has a new paint job, it was great the first few years, but its almost a decade and we are just very tired of the same virtual world. As Gamers, I wanted a new world, with new rules and new laws, that helps me escape my real one.

    Currently, if you look at various forums of single player games, there will always be talks about getting co-op as an Multiplayer aspect for the next game. Its definitely a trend, but its a trend that is moving away from Virtual worlds. And more as an add-on to an established world. Which in my opinion, ruins the experience than adding to it. 

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Axxar
    I really enjoyed Skyrim. I didn't think the story or combat system were particularly great, and the characters you meet are very shallow. But the world they've scupted is fantastic, with great attention to detail. It was a joy to explore and behold.

    It was fun for me for a while .. but it got too repetitive and traveling became a chore. Thus, i never finish it.

    I prefer games like Deus Ex or Dishonored where the core gameplay is fun, and interesting things happen all the time.

    Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

    You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

    You will probably laugh, but I completed the game without ever using fast travelling, except to recover a horse I couldn't find - then I would fast travel to my current location to make it appear again.

    i did. The horse is actually kind of slow. I know Skyrim is popular but just not my cup of tea. Dishonored, Deus Ex, Diablo 3, BL are all more entertaining games for me.

     

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

    Honestly, and I don't mean to get too far off topic, let's say for example that you are walking from Whiterun to Winterhold, it is a long walk if that's all you do is walk and kill wandering monsters.  However, Skyrim is absolutely packed with locations, during the walk you should easily have located 10+ sites, each of which you could go into and clear, whether you have the associated quest or not.  Once you get the quest, the site gets restocked anyhow.  So it's not a boring walk with nothing to do unless you choose to make it that way.  What could have been a 20 minute walk could easily have turned into a 3 hour trek punctuated with a dozen dungeons.

    Heck, I used to do that all the time.  I'd start in Whiterun and pick a direction and just walk that way.  That's how I got so many sites I could fast-travel to, I just went walking and clearing dungeons.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    What narrow? In fact, i think my view is more open .. nothing is sacred .. and all possibility (say without a world) should be considered.

    What i am arguing is that if certain features (like i am forced to spend 20 min traveling before fighting in a dungeon) do not add fun to me, then i do not want it in my game. It is a feature by feature determination.

    No one says atmosphere and story are not important. But i do enjoy the combat and progression first and foremost.

    And why do you think i play MMOs and put up with some of the slower aspect of it? That is because i took the whole picture into account. I can't completely get rid of walking if i like the wow classes, right?

    Narrow because you always seem to view it as combat + feature, not the feature itself, you talk about travelling in the context of it being that thing that prevents you from doing combat, not about travelling itself (even if it is the worst possible thing we can talk about, travelling is quite uneventful usually :( ).

    Dunno, maybe it is a defect, but i do understand people who get the same excitement as you have from killing a monster by mining that rare mineral, respeccing/regearing just so that they can walk in the desert without water, completing that quest, crafting that excellent necklace, trading that recipe, and i want them in my game.

    In general, i think people who "endure" the slower aspects of mmos are well cared for atm, we should look after the people who "endure" combat and progression for a change. :)

    (in b4 "mmos ARE combat and progression" :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    Well .. if you look at it that way .. then yes. My PREFERENCE is narrow. But i do consider all options. It is not like i haven't TRIED slow travel, and decided that it is a waste of my leisure time. It is not like i haven't tried a "realistic" game like the SIMS and decide decorating a room is not my idea of fun.

    But, my view is also BROADER in the sense that i do not limit myself to see MMO in a certain mold. If there is no world, but lots of MMO type features, i will take a look and see if it fits my style of play.

    And to be fair, i do enjoy more than just combat gameplay. Stealth travel is also one of them. In a game like Deus Ex, Dishonored or Splinter Cell, going from point A to B *is* exciting because you have to use your power and abilities (like those stealth abilities in Deus Ex or Blink in Dishonored) to avoid being detected. I have also no problem fighting my way from point A to B.

    Doing nothing but walk .. i do havea  problem with.

    And you should also open to other types of games. People who like big worlds and slow travel have Fallout 3 and Skyrim, and countless GTA. MMOs are not the only games out there.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member
    Originally posted by Ironfungus
    If it proves to be profitable then we might see it happen.

    Ultima Online already proved it.  What more do you need?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

    Honestly, and I don't mean to get too far off topic, let's say for example that you are walking from Whiterun to Winterhold, it is a long walk if that's all you do is walk and kill wandering monsters.  However, Skyrim is absolutely packed with locations, during the walk you should easily have located 10+ sites, each of which you could go into and clear, whether you have the associated quest or not.  Once you get the quest, the site gets restocked anyhow.  So it's not a boring walk with nothing to do unless you choose to make it that way.  What could have been a 20 minute walk could easily have turned into a 3 hour trek punctuated with a dozen dungeons.

    Heck, I used to do that all the time.  I'd start in Whiterun and pick a direction and just walk that way.  That's how I got so many sites I could fast-travel to, I just went walking and clearing dungeons.

    But most of those locations are generic. There is where combat comes in. In Diablo 3, mobs have some variety but essentially you are fighting the same mob in the same random dungeon again and again. I like that because the combat mechanics is fun (and i am not going into why in this post, we can discuss WHAT combat i find fun later).

    The problem with Skyrim is that combat is just NOT fun for me.

    Personally, location, size of worlds are all pretty much unimportant to me. The core gameplay is. Deus Ex is good ... primarily because of the mechanics that let you hack, stealth or fight in in interesting (and you can combine) ways. It also have differnet locations to add flavor. But flavor means nothing (to me) if the core gameplay is not entertaining.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Ironfungus If it proves to be profitable then we might see it happen.
    Ultima Online already proved it.  What more do you need?


    UO did not cost fifty million dollars to develop, it peaked at less than 300k players and those players rapidly left when other options became available.

    A lot more is needed.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,549Member Uncommon

    We're going to need more than just a world to play in but yeah, that concept is very appealing to a lot of us.  We're in a loop hole of doom atm.  Companies are asking developers to build them a nice, quick cheezy game that will turn a profit.  They're releasing, making a little bit of money, and thinking "gawd, what a pain in the ass this was I shud a listn to mom and become a lawyer or manga artist instead."  Producing and maintaining is a beatch people and I'm sure it's figured in.  No one is thinking along the lines of "make something unique and awesome that will be spoken of in history books for generations to come!"

     

    We need a pervasive simulative world.  Trees grow.  Flowers bloom.  Rabbits can be skinned for pelts but don't beat you up cause thats STUPID and dont drop armor because thats STUPIDER.

     

    We need it not to lag on anyone's PC.  That's impossible.  I propose developing a new type of game station in the shape of PC's instead of Wii's, X-box, PlayStation, or DS's.  AND MAKE IT CHEAPER THAN BUYING A HOME COMPUTER.

     

    No auto log out after idle for 5 minutes.  Auto log out after idle for 1 1/2 hrs (except personal shops).

     

    Auction House yes.  Limit three digits so highest price can only be $999 gold.

     

    No personal shop on person.  Personal Shop be stalls in home city that can be rented for 24hrs at a time, no consecutives, and earned thru in game privileges like quests, rep, etc.  Better rep get shop brownies/moogles w/e.  [I hate the disorganized way shops are splayed out in games and lagging up the place.  I hate how they bind a player char to one spot.]

     

    No lvl cap; skill caps only (like Mabinogi bloody cheezy game I keep playing).

     

    Complex animations akin to Sims 2.  Using toilet, eating at dinning tables, watching plays; all go to ONE bar called overall emotional health or stamina, w/e.  Give player choice of many things they can do to raise this bar so if they wanted to play a char that never used the john or ate food then great.

     

    Farms.  Real economy.  I still like medieval not space age but...

     

    Have planet zones but keep continents - space travel avail but not space game.  

     

    LET US DESIGN OUR OWN ARMOR.  

     

    Dragon / pet / mount  breeding on TS2 breeding system where you don't know what your will get.  Breed red dragon with white dragon get either a red and white, pink, polka dot, etc.  Dna carry to the 10th generation.  That was Sims 2 brilliance; simulated genetics.

     

    Mobs more realistic.  No respawns.  Can raise young.  Need to keep from extinction.  Genetics lab.  Farms.  Ecology.

     

    NO F'ING BOUND ITEMS EVER AGAIN EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    And you should also open to other types of games. People who like big worlds and slow travel have Fallout 3 and Skyrim, and countless GTA. MMOs are not the only games out there.

    Well, i could very well argue the opposite, that you have more than enough arcade games and action rpgs :)

    But in the end it is like arguing in circles, and the essence gets lost.

    You actually mentioned a thing which very well illustrates why i think we have gone too far towards arcade games and action rpgs, stealth. Back in the day a stealth class could enter a dungeon/instance, loot some chests, gather some resources for itself or to trade with other players, lets say someone who is good at aoe farming and has a easier access to other resources. This aspect is nonexistent now. Not even mentioning other advantages which had to be payed for with disadvantages. But at a point someone decided it is not fun, the life threatening dilemma of picking a stealth class or not, or coming up with content that would be meaningful for all (stealth, aoe, groupers and so on)  while not excessively favoring either.

    I dont see that as progres, even if i can understand that if combat is your preference it may seem as progress, due to the fad in recent years that everything below 10 keybinds and 3 keypresses per second is for noobs (and not even mentioning "your opponent has done XYZ, YOU HAVE TO DO ASDF ID THE NEXT 2 SECONDS OR YOU WILL DIE!!!!1!1!!!1" :) )

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    And you should also open to other types of games. People who like big worlds and slow travel have Fallout 3 and Skyrim, and countless GTA. MMOs are not the only games out there.

    Well, i could very well argue the opposite, that you have more than enough arcade games and action rpgs :)

    But in the end it is like arguing in circles, and the essence gets lost.

    You actually mentioned a thing which very well illustrates why i think we have gone too far towards arcade games and action rpgs, stealth. Back in the day a stealth class could enter a dungeon/instance, loot some chests, gather some resources for itself or to trade with other players, lets say someone who is good at aoe farming and has a easier access to other resources. This aspect is nonexistent now. Not even mentioning other advantages which had to be payed for with disadvantages. But at a point someone decided it is not fun, the life threatening dilemma of picking a stealth class or not, or coming up with content that would be meaningful for all (stealth, aoe, groupers and so on)  while not excessively favoring either.

    I dont see that as progres, even if i can understand that if combat is your preference it may seem as progress, due to the fad in recent years that everything below 10 keybinds and 3 keypresses per second is for noobs (and not even mentioning "your opponent has done XYZ, YOU HAVE TO DO ASDF ID THE NEXT 2 SECONDS OR YOU WILL DIE!!!!1!1!!!1" :) )

    Flame on!

    :)

     

    Arcade games .. may be. Action RPG ... not so much. How many action RPGs (with online co-op) are released in 2012?

    I would also make a difference between what you call stealth and what i call steath. There is NO true steath class in MMOs before. Not one that focuses on getting from point A to B undetected, by the use of many abilities (like in Thief). Noise/visual detection is simply not modelled in old, nor new MMOs.

    I am not talking about sneak up with invis and nab one chest. I am talking about steath as a core gameplay element. To be fair, MMO is probably not the best setting to do stealth. It is probably better done in SP games.

    Well, aside from reacting with the right skill, you also have to consider the meta game that one has to have the "ASDF" skill before it will work. I think customizing what skill to bring is another interesting aspect of combat. Aside from that, there are lots of other progress, like the use of CDs and procs .. which were not there in the EQ/UO days. Managing those are fun.

  • Baramos79Baramos79 Indianapolis, INPosts: 73Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    We dont want games - we want worlds.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Thank you!

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