Mmorpg nowadays are boring. Hand-holding, no sense of world and complete combat only focus. Also matchmaking lobby like gameplay. They are just not designed anymore to hold me for long time. Hell most of the time they are not even worth time you spent to install and play-research them.
Those MMOs would probably do a hell of a lot better if released 10 years ago.
Why wouldn't they? The gameplay has gotten old and stale, the MMO business spent most of those 10 years re-releasing the same damn MMO over and over to the same people, and you people actually bought into it.
Then again, if something like Rift released alongside DAOC or Shadowbane it could have absolutely failed when placed along side games with actual, good, gameplay, and not retarded repetitive gear/renown grinds.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Unfortunately, "too good" meant "crashes too frequently", when you were networking it
I dunno op, that sure is a difficult premise to support, given all of the evidence of miserable, entitled people we see all around us. But that's a "first world problem", isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If Pac Man would have had the same scrutuny as today's MMO's, people would have nuked arcades saying, "WTF they increased Blinky's persuit speed by .25 percent - i'm otta here!"
I don't think a game can get "too good" but I do think in the process of dissecting the 'frog' we kill it when it comes to games. Some people need to just play the game ... it's actually quite nice to just play sometimes without reading so much into everything.
Pac-Man was released in 1980 and is still played to this day. I think it's fair to say it has stood the test of time. Where do you think Rift and GW2 will be in 32 years?
The mindset of the players has changed over the decades. Back then, Pac-Man players expected to lose. Modern day mmorpg players expect to win. When they don't win they bitch how the game is unbalanced, they were outnumbered, lag and whatever other excuses they can muster.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
MMO's are becoming worse as time goes by imho. The lack of innovation and the rush to meet the release dates therefore making the game release with lesser content is all too common nowadays.
The golden age of MMO's has gone and now we are left with clones and MMO's going F2P due to their lack of success.
The only thing that has got better is the graphics.
I do live in hope that someday a reall blockbuster of an MMO will be released but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
As strange as it sound, but is it possible that MMO are too good now days?
back in the day the standards weren't as high as today. People expect way more than they did pre-WoW. MMO now days have many new features like that seen in GW2 and Rift. But people seem to quickly get bored of these features.
if games like Rift and GW2 came out in 2002 in the same quality, would they be more successful or less successful than they are now? I feel these games are boring now because they simply too good. Indy games are more fun like Darkfall, because it lacks quality and not trying to be perfect or too good.
I don't know about "too good." It's more like players have to settle for what developers dish out, and what developers are dishing out may not necessarily be what players are looking for. Yet they keep dishing out the clones year after year because... where are players going to go? Its funny but, if some developer out there figures this out and decides to make a game with all the features players are looking for and don't have, without cutting corners, he/she stands to make a lot of cash.
Originally posted by Onigod Yes they are all too good! thats why i am still playing league of legends while im dieing to actually pay money for a good mmo.
And this is why I find myself Roaming the interwebs and have turned into a MMO junkie. Nothing holds anymore. Heck i reinstalled EQ2 and for once I'm haven a blast not cause of the game but the people. Most new mmo's arent even MMO's.
I can sit and name a ton of mmos that promote and even reward solo play. Others have since changed to allow the players to solo the whole game to cap lvl's. I'm not going to tell people how to play the game they paid for. At the same time if people are so anti grouping why play online games. I digressed there sorry lol
MMOs of today have nothing on classics like UO, EQ and SWGexcept for improved graphics. Other than that, they suck in comparison. Just a bunch of linear, gear-grind fests with very little substance or longevity.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
MMO's are far to easy and to casual for my taste and far to solo friendly even though I do play them, Unfortunately I didnt play UO or Everquest back in the day but I did play FFXI for a couple of years. I just wish Developers would go back to its grass roots of MMO development and create a world that is challenging as much as FFXI was.
Crafting actually had meaningful purpose, missions felt epic, levelling required a group to progress. Thats how I liked it and actually encouraged more social activity compared to the recent tosh that gets released these days.
Modern MMOs are, graphically, enourmous improvements over the early forebears of the genre. Of that there is no doubt. However new features are relatively uncommon, many being 'gimmicky', many segregating the community. In all these years nothing much has really changed at the core of the genre beyond graphics.
People keep using the lower playerbase of the older MMOs are proof that they were not as good whilst ignoring the struggles they had to endure at the time (internet speeds many wouldn't tolerate today, high barrier to entry due to costs of PC MMO gaming at the time, stigma of being a 'gamer' etc.). Even the vaunted WoW took almost all it's ideas and concepts from those who came before and introduced very little to the genre.
Now, I am not saying the older MMOs were perfect, the were far from it, I just find it a bit dissapointing that despite all this time nothing much has changed with the games (aside from becoming a far more solitary experience), the largest change probably stems from the community playing the games nowadays, and I'm not so sure that is a positive change.
The games of past have way more features than the games of today.
Yeah, those are not bugs, they are features. Old MMOs had more features in them.
Right because SWTOR launched flawlessly and had an amazing engine. Or GW2 didnt have huge account issues. Or WoW doesnt have a massive amount of botters. Lets take a look at AoC's release/post release....Warhammer?...Bright Wizards anyone. The ONLY game that went pretty much bug free on launch and after launch was RIFT and even it has serious balance issue....I think the current thing is Cleric Disintegrate pretty much one shotting people.
Lets not forget FFXIV 1.0... yea games of today are so much better..
/sarcasm
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
The games of past have way more features than the games of today.
Yeah, those are not bugs, they are features. Old MMOs had more features in them.
Right because SWTOR launched flawlessly and had an amazing engine. Or GW2 didnt have huge account issues. Or WoW doesnt have a massive amount of botters. Lets take a look at AoC's release/post release....Warhammer?...Bright Wizards anyone. The ONLY game that went pretty much bug free on launch and after launch was RIFT and even it has serious balance issue....I think the current thing is Cleric Disintegrate pretty much one shotting people.
Lets not forget FFXIV 1.0... yea games of today are so much better..
/sarcasm
Older mmorpg's like UO, SWG, AC, EQ1, etc right after release had bigger problems. Really ones that dwarf those you mentioned. Mass botting or huge exploits & huge performance issues (Vanguard anyone?) can kill a game, but that's not what is keeping newer mmorpg's from sustaining stable playerbase with some exceptions of course (FFXIV 1.0).
The games of past have way more features than the games of today.
Yeah, those are not bugs, they are features. Old MMOs had more features in them.
Right because SWTOR launched flawlessly and had an amazing engine. Or GW2 didnt have huge account issues. Or WoW doesnt have a massive amount of botters. Lets take a look at AoC's release/post release....Warhammer?...Bright Wizards anyone. The ONLY game that went pretty much bug free on launch and after launch was RIFT and even it has serious balance issue....I think the current thing is Cleric Disintegrate pretty much one shotting people.
Lets not forget FFXIV 1.0... yea games of today are so much better..
/sarcasm
Older mmorpg's like UO, SWG, AC, EQ1, etc right after release had bigger problems. Really ones that dwarf those you mentioned. Mass botting or huge exploits & huge performance issues (Vanguard anyone?) can kill a game, but that's not what is keeping newer mmorpg's from sustaining stable playerbase with some exceptions of course (FFXIV 1.0).
Oh I understand that. Hence the reason why older games have been around and survived longer than the games of today. They had more reasons to stay and play, aka more features. And nothing really Dwarfs Mortal Onlines launch which is a game of today.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
As strange as it sound, but is it possible that MMO are too good now days?
back in the day the standards weren't as high as today. People expect way more than they did pre-WoW. MMO now days have many new features like that seen in GW2 and Rift. But people seem to quickly get bored of these features.
if games like Rift and GW2 came out in 2002 in the same quality, would they be more successful or less successful than they are now? I feel these games are boring now because they simply too good. Indy games are more fun like Darkfall, because it lacks quality and not trying to be perfect or too good.
LOL!! This really made my day right there! No , MMO's aren't any good now a days , far from it. Besides having great graphics , the game play is garbage OR more of the same. Now would Rift & GW2 been more successful if released back in 2002? Most likely , it would of given WoW a hard time that's for sure. But even then , no one would of been able to run Rift/GW2 at full power since duo core processors were barely out.
Good old fashioned P2P MMO's back in the 90's were the best. Indie games are garbage , besides Minecraft which is great fun.
Adding too many features on release is always a bad idea , because half of those features are half finished or bugged , and obviously GW2 failed big time , FF14 had to restart from scratch as they messed up the first time around , SW:tor is a failure. Trying to do everything in a limited ammount of time is always a bad idea , do the smaller things right and 100% fonctional and as the game grows put in more 100% completed features. Look at what Trion and Petroglyph are doing with EoN : End of Nations , Open beta was once announced at the beginning of 2012 ,we're almost at 2013 and it's still not in open beta , because they want to make the features bug free and 100% fonctional for everyone to see and enjoy. Nothing pisses me off more then a game entering open beta after 3-4 years of Alpha/closed Beta and the game is still full of bugs and half finished features. Until Devs understand this concept properly on how to create a MMORPG , they should stick to solo console games.
History is repeating itself now on computer world.
He nails it pretty nicely "At a glance this game is fun: however, the gameplay is very stagnant. As a veteran roleplayer of twenty plus years, this game offers little in the way of fun and excitement. "
History is repeating itself now on computer world.
He nails it pretty nicely "At a glance this game is fun: however, the gameplay is very stagnant. As a veteran roleplayer of twenty plus years, this game offers little in the way of fun and excitement. "
Oh man, I remember playing Hero Quest on the weekends. Since each of us had our own game, we'd wind up playing these sprawling adventures that would cross six boards. We also made our own tiles, added more spells, potions, items, etc. Our group wound up playing this way more than D&D since it was a more visual experience, and we were able to easily expand the game for our own purposes.
Back to the OP:
I don't think the question is whether or not that today's mmos are too good, instead we should be asking were in the hell did depth go? Take a game like Asheron's Call, which is the first mmo I played. Even for then the engine wasn't great and the game looked blocky as hell, but holy crap was it fun. You could truly build your own character and your own experiences. With proper builds, you could take on content that you probably had no business in at your level, but you could just as easily gimp yourself too. The world was big, open and immersive. You could easily get lost in the lore and many did. You could also just as easily solo many things as well as group up for it. It truly was a mmo for the masses that never was really supported properly via advertisements.
Additionally, the original fans of mmos were your pen and paper rpg "nerds" and MUD players. It wasn't until WoW came out that a different group of gamers entered the mmo space. WoW became popular because of WarCraft and Blizzard names attached, which also attracted Diablo and StarCraft fans as well, two groups of folks who might not have ever played mmos before. However, with that change it also brought in the "cool" kids. So instead of mmo characters being about spreadsheets, they became about maximum efficiency.
Take a look at most of the forums for any mmo. You will see threads like, "How to increase DPS", "Best Build for X", etc. It's not about the experience of the game anymore, it's about individual encounters and how to dominate them. There's no more world building, just more achievements to get.
Today's mmos aren't worlds, they are play spaces, and the leveling process isn't considered the journey, but treated as an inconvienience to tolerate until you hit the "real" game.
As another thread stated, "We need Worlds, not games". We truly do.
As strange as it sound, but is it possible that MMO are too good now days?
back in the day the standards weren't as high as today. People expect way more than they did pre-WoW. MMO now days have many new features like that seen in GW2 and Rift. But people seem to quickly get bored of these features.
if games like Rift and GW2 came out in 2002 in the same quality, would they be more successful or less successful than they are now? I feel these games are boring now because they simply too good. Indy games are more fun like Darkfall, because it lacks quality and not trying to be perfect or too good.
Sometimes I think as an indie, some people expect AAA stuff out of our team of 3!
Originally posted by Onigod Yes they are all too good! thats why i am still playing league of legends while im dieing to actually pay money for a good mmo.
Why would you want to pay money? F2P is the way to go.
Let's look at a commonly accepted "feature" being world chat. This simple feature DESTROYS MMO communities. Without this feature, you have people meeting in popular hub areas. Places to gather, trade, and to strategize. If you wanted to group up for tough dungeon/cave you waited at the entrance. When you ran accross someone out in the boonies, you would stop and chat and maybe group up.
World chat stopped all of that.
Bring back proximity chat with optional chat bubbles.
As strange as it sound, but is it possible that MMO are too good now days?
back in the day the standards weren't as high as today. People expect way more than they did pre-WoW. MMO now days have many new features like that seen in GW2 and Rift. But people seem to quickly get bored of these features.
if games like Rift and GW2 came out in 2002 in the same quality, would they be more successful or less successful than they are now? I feel these games are boring now because they simply too good. Indy games are more fun like Darkfall, because it lacks quality and not trying to be perfect or too good.
the only thing better about todays MMOs are the graphics. thats it.
i find more features and more to do in MMOs pre wow.
every new MMO gets easyer, more liniear, less social, and more boring.
Comments
Mmorpg nowadays are boring. Hand-holding, no sense of world and complete combat only focus. Also matchmaking lobby like gameplay. They are just not designed anymore to hold me for long time. Hell most of the time they are not even worth time you spent to install and play-research them.
Those MMOs would probably do a hell of a lot better if released 10 years ago.
Why wouldn't they? The gameplay has gotten old and stale, the MMO business spent most of those 10 years re-releasing the same damn MMO over and over to the same people, and you people actually bought into it.
Then again, if something like Rift released alongside DAOC or Shadowbane it could have absolutely failed when placed along side games with actual, good, gameplay, and not retarded repetitive gear/renown grinds.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Yeah, those are not bugs, they are features. Old MMOs had more features in them.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Not too good.
But too many, too easy and too quick to level.
Unfortunately, "too good" meant "crashes too frequently", when you were networking it
I dunno op, that sure is a difficult premise to support, given all of the evidence of miserable, entitled people we see all around us. But that's a "first world problem", isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Pac-Man was released in 1980 and is still played to this day. I think it's fair to say it has stood the test of time. Where do you think Rift and GW2 will be in 32 years?
The mindset of the players has changed over the decades. Back then, Pac-Man players expected to lose. Modern day mmorpg players expect to win. When they don't win they bitch how the game is unbalanced, they were outnumbered, lag and whatever other excuses they can muster.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
It's not that they are too good, but rather, too streamlined. More world, less linear game please.
Joined - July 2004
MMO's are becoming worse as time goes by imho. The lack of innovation and the rush to meet the release dates therefore making the game release with lesser content is all too common nowadays.
The golden age of MMO's has gone and now we are left with clones and MMO's going F2P due to their lack of success.
The only thing that has got better is the graphics.
I do live in hope that someday a reall blockbuster of an MMO will be released but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
I don't know about "too good." It's more like players have to settle for what developers dish out, and what developers are dishing out may not necessarily be what players are looking for. Yet they keep dishing out the clones year after year because... where are players going to go? Its funny but, if some developer out there figures this out and decides to make a game with all the features players are looking for and don't have, without cutting corners, he/she stands to make a lot of cash.
And this is why I find myself Roaming the interwebs and have turned into a MMO junkie. Nothing holds anymore. Heck i reinstalled EQ2 and for once I'm haven a blast not cause of the game but the people. Most new mmo's arent even MMO's.
I can sit and name a ton of mmos that promote and even reward solo play. Others have since changed to allow the players to solo the whole game to cap lvl's. I'm not going to tell people how to play the game they paid for. At the same time if people are so anti grouping why play online games. I digressed there sorry lol
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
MMO's are far to easy and to casual for my taste and far to solo friendly even though I do play them, Unfortunately I didnt play UO or Everquest back in the day but I did play FFXI for a couple of years. I just wish Developers would go back to its grass roots of MMO development and create a world that is challenging as much as FFXI was.
Crafting actually had meaningful purpose, missions felt epic, levelling required a group to progress. Thats how I liked it and actually encouraged more social activity compared to the recent tosh that gets released these days.
Modern MMOs are, graphically, enourmous improvements over the early forebears of the genre. Of that there is no doubt. However new features are relatively uncommon, many being 'gimmicky', many segregating the community. In all these years nothing much has really changed at the core of the genre beyond graphics.
People keep using the lower playerbase of the older MMOs are proof that they were not as good whilst ignoring the struggles they had to endure at the time (internet speeds many wouldn't tolerate today, high barrier to entry due to costs of PC MMO gaming at the time, stigma of being a 'gamer' etc.). Even the vaunted WoW took almost all it's ideas and concepts from those who came before and introduced very little to the genre.
Now, I am not saying the older MMOs were perfect, the were far from it, I just find it a bit dissapointing that despite all this time nothing much has changed with the games (aside from becoming a far more solitary experience), the largest change probably stems from the community playing the games nowadays, and I'm not so sure that is a positive change.
Right because SWTOR launched flawlessly and had an amazing engine. Or GW2 didnt have huge account issues. Or WoW doesnt have a massive amount of botters. Lets take a look at AoC's release/post release....Warhammer?...Bright Wizards anyone. The ONLY game that went pretty much bug free on launch and after launch was RIFT and even it has serious balance issue....I think the current thing is Cleric Disintegrate pretty much one shotting people.
Lets not forget FFXIV 1.0... yea games of today are so much better..
/sarcasm
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Older mmorpg's like UO, SWG, AC, EQ1, etc right after release had bigger problems. Really ones that dwarf those you mentioned. Mass botting or huge exploits & huge performance issues (Vanguard anyone?) can kill a game, but that's not what is keeping newer mmorpg's from sustaining stable playerbase with some exceptions of course (FFXIV 1.0).
Oh I understand that. Hence the reason why older games have been around and survived longer than the games of today. They had more reasons to stay and play, aka more features. And nothing really Dwarfs Mortal Onlines launch which is a game of today.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
LOL!! This really made my day right there! No , MMO's aren't any good now a days , far from it. Besides having great graphics , the game play is garbage OR more of the same. Now would Rift & GW2 been more successful if released back in 2002? Most likely , it would of given WoW a hard time that's for sure. But even then , no one would of been able to run Rift/GW2 at full power since duo core processors were barely out.
Good old fashioned P2P MMO's back in the 90's were the best. Indie games are garbage , besides Minecraft which is great fun.
Adding too many features on release is always a bad idea , because half of those features are half finished or bugged , and obviously GW2 failed big time , FF14 had to restart from scratch as they messed up the first time around , SW:tor is a failure. Trying to do everything in a limited ammount of time is always a bad idea , do the smaller things right and 100% fonctional and as the game grows put in more 100% completed features. Look at what Trion and Petroglyph are doing with EoN : End of Nations , Open beta was once announced at the beginning of 2012 ,we're almost at 2013 and it's still not in open beta , because they want to make the features bug free and 100% fonctional for everyone to see and enjoy. Nothing pisses me off more then a game entering open beta after 3-4 years of Alpha/closed Beta and the game is still full of bugs and half finished features. Until Devs understand this concept properly on how to create a MMORPG , they should stick to solo console games.
http://www.boardgamebeast.com/hero-quest-board-game.html#axzz2CJa6dabu
History is repeating itself now on computer world.
He nails it pretty nicely "At a glance this game is fun: however, the gameplay is very stagnant. As a veteran roleplayer of twenty plus years, this game offers little in the way of fun and excitement. "
Let's internet
Oh man, I remember playing Hero Quest on the weekends. Since each of us had our own game, we'd wind up playing these sprawling adventures that would cross six boards. We also made our own tiles, added more spells, potions, items, etc. Our group wound up playing this way more than D&D since it was a more visual experience, and we were able to easily expand the game for our own purposes.
Back to the OP:
I don't think the question is whether or not that today's mmos are too good, instead we should be asking were in the hell did depth go? Take a game like Asheron's Call, which is the first mmo I played. Even for then the engine wasn't great and the game looked blocky as hell, but holy crap was it fun. You could truly build your own character and your own experiences. With proper builds, you could take on content that you probably had no business in at your level, but you could just as easily gimp yourself too. The world was big, open and immersive. You could easily get lost in the lore and many did. You could also just as easily solo many things as well as group up for it. It truly was a mmo for the masses that never was really supported properly via advertisements.
Additionally, the original fans of mmos were your pen and paper rpg "nerds" and MUD players. It wasn't until WoW came out that a different group of gamers entered the mmo space. WoW became popular because of WarCraft and Blizzard names attached, which also attracted Diablo and StarCraft fans as well, two groups of folks who might not have ever played mmos before. However, with that change it also brought in the "cool" kids. So instead of mmo characters being about spreadsheets, they became about maximum efficiency.
Take a look at most of the forums for any mmo. You will see threads like, "How to increase DPS", "Best Build for X", etc. It's not about the experience of the game anymore, it's about individual encounters and how to dominate them. There's no more world building, just more achievements to get.
Today's mmos aren't worlds, they are play spaces, and the leveling process isn't considered the journey, but treated as an inconvienience to tolerate until you hit the "real" game.
As another thread stated, "We need Worlds, not games". We truly do.
Sometimes I think as an indie, some people expect AAA stuff out of our team of 3!
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Why would you want to pay money? F2P is the way to go.
Let's look at a commonly accepted "feature" being world chat. This simple feature DESTROYS MMO communities. Without this feature, you have people meeting in popular hub areas. Places to gather, trade, and to strategize. If you wanted to group up for tough dungeon/cave you waited at the entrance. When you ran accross someone out in the boonies, you would stop and chat and maybe group up.
World chat stopped all of that.
Bring back proximity chat with optional chat bubbles.
the only thing better about todays MMOs are the graphics. thats it.
i find more features and more to do in MMOs pre wow.
every new MMO gets easyer, more liniear, less social, and more boring.