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About experience and feeling of superiority

QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

I've recently played a many games which keep score on how many matches you've played and how many of them have you won etc. and now that I can check people's records, I've made some interesting findings.

Lately this one guy started bossing people around in a match and started calling everyone noobs if they didn't do as he said. After checking his stats, I found he had played over 14 000 matches with the win rate of 39% (!!!). Normally these precentages are around 50%. A win% that low means he is actually hurts the side hes on. I mean, under 49% I consider a bad player but 39% is catastrophic. For reference, my own stats in said game are little over 3500 matches with a win rate of 62%.

In another game I had played close to 500 matches with the win rate of 61% when I was giving some advice to a newbie. Then some other guy started dissing me saying I am a noob myself and I shouldn't be giving directions to anyone. Puzzled, I checked his stats and he had close to ten times more matches under his belt (~4500) with a win rate of 47%. How can this guy feel superior to me?

A third example: I am only starting to play the game and because I don't have many matches or victories under my belt, I am thrown into these "low level matches" (referring to player skill). And here I still find people who have played thousands of matches, still wresttle in "the mud leagues" and yet they somehow feel superior to everyone else.

Where does this feeling of superiority come from? Do people just forget how well they're doing and go by with how many hours they've played the game?

I may be new to the game, but hell, I've played a lot of games, and this is likely not the first [insert genre] game I've played and the experience from other games does carry over. I couldn't care less if you had a character 3 years older than mine, or you've played since release - stats speak for themselves. You don't get to call someone a newbie, if you have seen thousands of engagements under your belt, but you stats are laughable. If the guy you're trying to put down has over 10 points better win rate, likely he has very little to learn from you.

Win rate, ladder ranking and ELO rating (or equivalent) tells me how good you are. Stats you can grind up tells me very little.

 

As a side note, it is amazing how some people can play a game for thousands of hours and can't raise their win rate above 40%. I mean, you'd think they'd learn something from all that playing.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

Comments

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Never have any doubts as to just how stupid people can be.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    illusory_superiority

    It's a pretty big marketing hook, not sure it's possible to sell an mmo without it.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random?

    A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members.

    In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves.

    I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random?

    A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members.

    In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves.

    I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.

    In every game I've played, with matchmaking and where the results are recorded, premades are not pitted against random teams. Usually both sides have premades or partial premades. And the whole idea of matchmaking is to pit players of same power level or same skill level against each other - to keep it competitive.

    Nothing can be said about the matches that are not recorded, but when they are, the stats are relevant.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • vonryan123vonryan123 Not home, MIPosts: 151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random?

    A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members.

    In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves.

    I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.

    agree with the 1st half.

     as for the last part

    "I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do."

     Never played a game where pvp matters and you don't have someone calling the shots. Say eve or other large group pvp. You need someone calling the shots or its everyman for himself and most people scream on voip servers or everyone just dies ina  ball of fire. Now for games like WoT or LoL yea I can see that logic who listens in a pick-up group......I have played WoT since beta from what I have seen over the years no one listens anyway so your right its just noise or chat text. Funny enough in some matchs if the team had listened or even took it into consideration they may have won.  PuGs in WoT is also why many quit due to very little plan of attack or direction.

    image
  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon

    If I am playing in a "team" focused game I never look at MY stats. I look at if we win or lose. To me, that is all that counts.

     

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • Ban_KhaerosBan_Khaeros Panmington, NDPosts: 27Member

    What games are these numerical examples from and what are your handles for each game?

     

    Which one are you 3500 games with 62% win?

    500 with 61% win?

    Newbie league scumming example?

     

    Let's get some confirmation up in here. 

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by lizardbones A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random? A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members. In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves. I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.
    In every game I've played, with matchmaking and where the results are recorded, premades are not pitted against random teams. Usually both sides have premades or partial premades. And the whole idea of matchmaking is to pit players of same power level or same skill level against each other - to keep it competitive.

    Nothing can be said about the matches that are not recorded, but when they are, the stats are relevant.




    I haven't participated in battleground style PvP since Rift, so those things might have changed. It has been awhile. Even taking the pre-made groups out of the equation still leads to the win/loss ratio depending on the groups you are with and fight against, not you.

    If the player gets a win when the group wins, and a loss when the group loses, regardless of their own performance in a match, then their win percentage is the win percentage of the groups they've been in, not an indicator of their own performance.

    That doesn't mean I think those people referenced in the first post should be shouting out orders to everyone, or that they are in reality good players. Especially since in my experience, the orders are always combined with insults. Even if the person is shouting out the right stuff to do, with all that experience, you'd think they'd know that it's not going to work.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by vonryan123
    Originally posted by lizardbones A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random? A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members. In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves. I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.
    agree with the 1st half.

     as for the last part

    "I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do."

     Never played a game where pvp matters and you don't have someone calling the shots. Say eve or other large group pvp. You need someone calling the shots or its everyman for himself and most people scream on voip servers or everyone just dies ina  ball of fire. Now for games like WoT or LoL yea I can see that logic who listens in a pick-up group......I have played WoT since beta from what I have seen over the years no one listens anyway so your right its just noise or chat text. Funny enough in some matchs if the team had listened or even took it into consideration they may have won.  PuGs in WoT is also why many quit due to very little plan of attack or direction.




    I would be amazed if the OP is describing Eve's PvP.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    lol, did you really have to question his authenticity... even if he is lying.. i don't think it takes away from his OP.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    I haven't participated in battleground style PvP since Rift, so those things might have changed. It has been awhile. Even taking the pre-made groups out of the equation still leads to the win/loss ratio depending on the groups you are with and fight against, not you.

    If the player gets a win when the group wins, and a loss when the group loses, regardless of their own performance in a match, then their win percentage is the win percentage of the groups they've been in, not an indicator of their own performance.

    That doesn't mean I think those people referenced in the first post should be shouting out orders to everyone, or that they are in reality good players. Especially since in my experience, the orders are always combined with insults. Even if the person is shouting out the right stuff to do, with all that experience, you'd think they'd know that it's not going to work.

     

    Look it like this: if you have win rate of say 45% over thousands of matches/battles, the team you are in is more likely to lose (because you are in it). Usually there is a finite amount of playrs per team, and you are taking that spot from a player who is likely to have a win rate higher than yours. Fifty-fifty is an average player if we do not count draws. With less than 50%, you are below average. It means, on average, your contribution to your team's success is negative. Which ones do you want in your team: players who are likely to lose or likely to win? And who would you like to give you orders/advice?

    I don't understand. Are you against skilled/successful players giving orders/advice? Did I hit a nerve or something?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • vonryan123vonryan123 Not home, MIPosts: 151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by vonryan123

    Originally posted by lizardbones A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random? A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members. In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves. I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.
    agree with the 1st half.

     

     as for the last part

    "I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do."

     Never played a game where pvp matters and you don't have someone calling the shots. Say eve or other large group pvp. You need someone calling the shots or its everyman for himself and most people scream on voip servers or everyone just dies ina  ball of fire. Now for games like WoT or LoL yea I can see that logic who listens in a pick-up group......I have played WoT since beta from what I have seen over the years no one listens anyway so your right its just noise or chat text. Funny enough in some matchs if the team had listened or even took it into consideration they may have won.  PuGs in WoT is also why many quit due to very little plan of attack or direction.



    I would be amazed if the OP is describing Eve's PvP.

     

    The reply was aimmed at you not the OP. Since the  OP never stated what game he was talking about I took it at face value of a general discussion. Eve was an example there are many more games where my example still applies

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I don't like to include the names of the games because it gives a chance to derail the thread and miss the whole point. If I mentioned game X. The thread could easily turn to discussion about that game.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by vonryan123
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by vonryan123 Originally posted by lizardbones A lot of the win rate depends on the game's matching system. Are you constantly matched against people who are about as good as you, or are you matched against people who are a little better than you or both? Is the matching system random? A lot of the win rate depends on the types of pvp you're doing as well. Is it pickup groups or pre-made groups? Are pre-made groups matched against the pickup groups? How large are the groups? The larger the groups, the smaller the individual contribution. Having pre-made groups matched against pickup groups will lower the win rating for all of the pickup groups' members. In most MMORPG, the win rating isn't terribly relevant to the player themselves. I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do.
    agree with the 1st half.    as for the last part "I have noticed though, that anyone who wants to be the 'leader' in battleground PvP rarely contributes anything but noise and aggravation. There's rarely, if ever, a need for one person to be telling everyone in the battleground what to do."  Never played a game where pvp matters and you don't have someone calling the shots. Say eve or other large group pvp. You need someone calling the shots or its everyman for himself and most people scream on voip servers or everyone just dies ina  ball of fire. Now for games like WoT or LoL yea I can see that logic who listens in a pick-up group......I have played WoT since beta from what I have seen over the years no one listens anyway so your right its just noise or chat text. Funny enough in some matchs if the team had listened or even took it into consideration they may have won.  PuGs in WoT is also why many quit due to very little plan of attack or direction.
    I would be amazed if the OP is describing Eve's PvP.  
    The reply was aimmed at you not the OP. Since the  OP never stated what game he was talking about I took it at face value of a general discussion. Eve was an example there are many more games where my example still applies


    In a game like Eve, someone is assigned to the position of calling the shots. You don't get put in a random group and have a random person assigning themselves that position.

    The original post isn't talking about a game like Eve or the type of PvP that happens in Eve. Unless I'm mistaken, they aren't talking about needing a person to be in charge. They're talking about people who are less skilled in PvP matches shouting out orders as if they are more skilled in PvP.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    I haven't participated in battleground style PvP since Rift, so those things might have changed. It has been awhile. Even taking the pre-made groups out of the equation still leads to the win/loss ratio depending on the groups you are with and fight against, not you. If the player gets a win when the group wins, and a loss when the group loses, regardless of their own performance in a match, then their win percentage is the win percentage of the groups they've been in, not an indicator of their own performance. That doesn't mean I think those people referenced in the first post should be shouting out orders to everyone, or that they are in reality good players. Especially since in my experience, the orders are always combined with insults. Even if the person is shouting out the right stuff to do, with all that experience, you'd think they'd know that it's not going to work.  
    Look it like this: if you have win rate of say 45% over thousands of matches/battles, the team you are in is more likely to lose (because you are in it). Usually there is a finite amount of playrs per team, and you are taking that spot from a player who is likely to have a win rate higher than yours. Fifty-fifty is an average player if we do not count draws. With less than 50%, you are below average. It means, on average, your contribution to your team's success is negative. Which ones do you want in your team: players who are likely to lose or likely to win? And who would you like to give you orders/advice?

    I don't understand. Are you against skilled/successful players giving orders/advice? Did I hit a nerve or something?




    No, not at all. I think if the person giving out advice knows what they're talking about, they should give out advice. They may not even have the built in skill to act on that advice in practice, but it could still be good advice. I also think PvP works better when there's a person in charge, who knows what they're doing.

    It's the method you're using to attribute 'skill' to a person. What it sounds like you're describing is random group pvp. Otherwise you wouldn't have random people you didn't know trying to take charge and you wouldn't have random people calling you a newb.

    In that scenario, any wins you have attributed to your character are the wins of the groups you've been in. They don't reflect your contribution at all. In that scenario a person could be AFK for every match and have a 50% win ratio. A person could be the best player on the team every time and have the same 50% win ratio. The win ratio is only applicable to your skill if it's directly measuring your success without regard to the contribution of anyone else. If it's measuring your win ratio in 1v1 PvP, then it's your win ratio. If the system is automatically putting you in better groups because of your contribution to the team (which would be amazing, but really unlikely), then it could be considered your win ratio. Otherwise it's just the win ratio of the random groups you've been in.

    Even if you're on a team, and the team never changes, it's still the win ratio for the team, not you. You could be a horrible player on a great team and you'd have a really good win ratio. Presumably the team would kick you, but you might be the team leader's favorite nephew or something. Maybe you make good buffalo wings and the team wants to keep you around for the wings. How would we know?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Ban_KhaerosBan_Khaeros Panmington, NDPosts: 27Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I don't like to include the names of the games because it gives a chance to derail the thread and miss the whole point. If I mentioned game X. The thread could easily turn to discussion about that game.

     

    But the game you play makes a big difference on the meaning of those arbitrary numbers and percentages.

     

    In League, a 60% win rate means very little when compared to, say, a DotA 60% win rate.  There are significantly less mechanics to worry about in a game of League, and every action you take cannot be punished as heavily as in DotA, so I would regard a person with 60% win in DotA as significantly more skilled than someone that has 60% in League.  That's not to say that the League player is unskilled - it just means that the DotA player would likely be more qualified to make general observations about player skill, which you seem to be doing.

     

    The way you play the game can also have a big difference:

     

    In Guild Wars 1, anyone could copy a gimmick build from a wiki page and get to halls.  The skill difference between a gimmick player that held 10+ halls and a balanceway player that held 10+ halls is astronomical.  In this case, the numbers do not detail the 'skill' of a player - they just show how unskilled players can use gimmicks to appear skilled in terms of stats.

     

    What about games that allow you to reset your statistics or make new accounts?  Surely, you're more skilled at a game after you've been playing for a year or two and managed to roll an alt.  When you stomp newbies in the level 1-5 queues, does that mean that those newbies (who will have lower w/l ratios) are worse than other newbies in their bracket (that get matched against real newbies, possibly with you on their team)?  In this case, win/loss stats are near useless.

     

    500 games might be a lot in one game, but might be next to nothing in another.  If we're talking about 500 games overall, what about the first 100 games where you were fighting newbies - do they accurately determine your skill today even though you were in the newbie bracket (and now you are supposedly matched with people equal to your level of skill)?

     

    If matchmaking were precise and you were always matched with equal-skilled players on both your team and the enemy team, wouldn't everyone's w/l percentage average to 50% (as the limit approaches an infinite number of games) except the very top players, the very bottom players, and players who have not settled at their true skill level in the matchmaking system yet?  There's some sort of problem - either the matchmaking systems aren't 100% precise at measuring player skill yet, or players have varied levels of performance that distort their w/l ratio to something that is useless.

     

    Which raises another question - is player skill something that is constant or can only go up?  Can skill be lost or forgotten?  Can players perform at the exact same level every single game they play, even if they are some of the top players in the world?  This can distort the w/l ratio to something not indicative of player skill.

     

    These are questions that need to be answered, especially in your situation, where you are putting out numbers with no context at all.  After all, who would I trust more for analysis on player skill: an unskilled player pretending to have '60% win percentages', or a skilled player?

     

    If you're confident enough to make this thread, then surely you're confident enough to back up your numbers with some profile pages.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Sigh ..

    Win rate is NOT a good indication of experience because it depends on WHOM you are match with. If that 49% win rate person is matched with much better players than those you have encounter, it is possible that he is better than you.

    That is why the ELO score is used to determine how good a player is.

    It started with chess, and now ELO is used in most competitive games. See if the game you play have a version of the ELO score (they may call it something else though).

    If you have a much higher ELO than the other guy, then i think your conclusion is justified. Otherwise, you just don't know.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    No, not at all. I think if the person giving out advice knows what they're talking about, they should give out advice. They may not even have the built in skill to act on that advice in practice, but it could still be good advice. I also think PvP works better when there's a person in charge, who knows what they're doing.

    It's the method you're using to attribute 'skill' to a person. What it sounds like you're describing is random group pvp. Otherwise you wouldn't have random people you didn't know trying to take charge and you wouldn't have random people calling you a newb.

    In that scenario, any wins you have attributed to your character are the wins of the groups you've been in. They don't reflect your contribution at all. In that scenario a person could be AFK for every match and have a 50% win ratio. A person could be the best player on the team every time and have the same 50% win ratio. The win ratio is only applicable to your skill if it's directly measuring your success without regard to the contribution of anyone else. If it's measuring your win ratio in 1v1 PvP, then it's your win ratio. If the system is automatically putting you in better groups because of your contribution to the team (which would be amazing, but really unlikely), then it could be considered your win ratio. Otherwise it's just the win ratio of the random groups you've been in.

    Even if you're on a team, and the team never changes, it's still the win ratio for the team, not you. You could be a horrible player on a great team and you'd have a really good win ratio. Presumably the team would kick you, but you might be the team leader's favorite nephew or something. Maybe you make good buffalo wings and the team wants to keep you around for the wings. How would we know?

     

    With random matches and not with a premade, the positive and negative effect of the team should be cancelled out with the take of thousands of matches. There's is no system where you'd be consistently pitted against stronger opponents over thousands of games. If you AFK in every match, your win% is guaranteed to be be less than 50% in the long run because your team would be playing underhanded.

    If you are an average player, your win rate should be around 50% in the long run. Average player's contribution is +-0, bad player's negative and good player's positive. Teams with better players or more good players are more likely to win.

    Even with premades, the more victorious teams are more likely to have good players in them. You can always carry a member, true, but that makes your team that much weaker too.

     

    To narius, in random matchmaking, win% does indicate skill. But if the game uses a rating system, then that is naturally the stronger indicator of the two.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member

    In your examples, the person screaming and being an asshole as played 1000s of matches.  So even tho they will statistically lose the matches they join, the volume in their mind makes them a better player.

     

    But I could just be applying logic to something that has no logic.  It could easily just be that they are trolls/assholes and reality just doesn't factor into their heads.

    image

    Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

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