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Looking back at MMOExposed's spotlight thread regarding Lacking of tanking mechanics leads to zergfe

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Comments

  • spookydomspookydom BristolPosts: 1,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bartoni33
    Originally posted by spookydom
    Spookydom decided after reading the first post that he would speak in the third person as well for the duration of this post because it looks like anybody can get away with it. Spookydom is wondering what he should have for breakfast right now. He is thinking a nice bacon sandwich. Was he right? Or should he have a nice healthy bowl of Museli?

    Bartoni33 always advocates Bacon for Breakfast. Bartoni33 feels that non-clogged veins are for losers. Cholesterol or death Bartoni33 always squeakes out of his bloated pie-hole. Was he right?

    Not trying to stir Museli by the way. Serious question about his cholesterol levels in the past.

    Spookydom wants to reply to this post but can not reach his keyboard due to sever arterial cloggage because of eating too much bacon. Was he right not add another poll asking the community if he was having a heart attack for fear of moderator wrath? Only time will tell. One day he may come back and start another thread looking back at this post. Was he right?

    image

  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo HindPosts: 662Member
    Not really. Any game with 20-30 players on the same quest or PvP map will be a zergfest, it doesn't matter if it has tank or not. 

    image

  • VoqarVoqar Phoenix, AZPosts: 498Member

    Didn't read the original article.  Didn't vote since almost every poll I've ever seen on the web like this one, is stupid with crappy options.

    I'm of two minds here, and me and my friends (generally playing GW2) feel the same way.

    It's kind of silly that tanks can magically hold threat and be the focal point of mob attacks (when you have a good tank), and it's sometimes a PITA to get groups in trinity-based systems (never is for me since I play with friends and don't solo my way thru MMORPGs then whine when I have no friends), but...

    There's a certain elegance to grouping when people have roles and it's all done well.

    Grouping in GW2 to me, even with friends who are long time MMORPGs, groupers, raiders, just feels like a group of soloists.  There are no real roles.  Some melee might get hit more but he surely isn't tanking, it's just that mobs tend to hit what's close much of the time (GW2 supposedly has AI variance here but let's be real - most mobs hit the melees if they're in melee - slaping extra toughness and vitality on said melee doesn't magically make them a tank, it just helps them survive the inevitable beating better).  There is no healer.  Everybody is a solo dps/hybrid with some element of support they may or may not use.

    If you wanna call a group of soloists in a dungeon a zerg, so be it.

    The dungeon content itself isn't that bad, it's ok for the most part, but I've seen better in several games (more interesting environs, mechanics, bosses, trash pulls, and definitely loot).  The grouping is meh.

    In most trinity dungeon situations you have to play smart (ideally) but you can also be that amazing tank that makes a run smooth as silk (or that crappy tank that people talk about), you can be that healer or whatever that bails out a horrible pull or situation, you can be a noticeably amazing dps who plays smart and puts the smack down.

    In GW2, there's no real distinctions.  You're all a bunch of hybrid clones with nearly the same mechanice, you can play smart, avoid damage, and that's about it.  What else are you gonna say?  Wow, that dude really does his support hybrid stuff amazingly well!  Maybe but the difference between someone doing it at all and someone doing it well is barely noticeable.

    One thing that really stands out is that in  many different trinity-based MMORPGs I've been in situations that seemed hopeless or ridiculous but heroic effort and pulling out all the stops bailed out a sure wipe - those epic moments that make memories.  I've yet to experience anything remotely like that in GW2 because down state, being able to run back to battles, no clear roles, different style of tactical and such, just don't provide that kind of experience.

    In GW2 it's more common to have utterly miserable battles where you're laughing at how obsurd it all is and you beat it thru attrition and are glad it's over - do better next time.  It's like no matter how poorly you execute/play you can still eventually win, you'll just have a higher repair bill.

     

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    Dumbest thread question in a long time please lock this, It won't add anything just a lot of OT babbles.

    A zerg is a zerg no matter how you see it either 2 tankers aggro the mobs while the rest dps or no tankers and all dps It's all a zerg no matter what, yes this goes for all MMOs

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/1

    well that's the thread that got him Spotlight Poster.

    now looking back on it, was He right about GW2?

     

    not trying to stir emotions by the way. Serious question about his spotlight post in the past.

    You really think that you are going to get an honest answer in the GW2 forum lol. You really think that people are going to admit that GW2 dungeons are mainly a graveyard zerg.

     

    I don't think that's the point.

    Posters will post whatever, but the fact doesn't change that it is a zerg-fest.

    It is always nice to 'rub it in'. :P

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by bartoni33
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Karteli
    GW2 is a really boring game.  Something needs to be done.

    Well he didn't say that, but he did say it would be zergfest.

    you agree?

    Who the hell are you then?

    At this point I think he meant to post OP as an alt account. Or all the forum power has gone to his head!image

    Yada Yada ... Accept what you see.  I didn't generate the emotions from either posts.

     

    I stand by what was said.

    To be fair you stand by the same statement on most threads - regardless of what the thread is about....

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,047Member Uncommon

    I think he was both right and wrong.

    You see here Anet dropped the ball entirely.

     

    When Anet stated they are removing the trinity - it promised that any class could do any of trinity roles.

    In other words - elementalist could be dedicated tank , warrior could be dedicated healer and necromancer could be nuker...

     

    Which is not what actually happens.

    Guardian is still by far most effective tank , elementalist is by far most effective nuker ... and healer yes that is guardian again.

     

    What anet did is not remove trinity , they broke trinity.

    Now you dont really have effective tank (no way to hold agrro) , there is no real healer ( everyone can heal , some better than other - but no one is really good at healing ) - basically what everyone can do is nuking. This is what everyone can do effectively.

    So if you can not tank, or heal ... you have no choice but to nuke and hope you will come on top - or run fast enough back , before the whole party wipe.

     

    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    I think he was both right and wrong.

    You see here Anet dropped the ball entirely.

     

    When Anet stated they are removing the trinity - it promised that any class could do any of trinity roles.

    In other words - elementalist could be dedicated tank , warrior could be dedicated healer and necromancer could be nuker...

     

    Which is not what actually happens.

    Guardian is still by far most effective tank , elementalist is by far most effective nuker ... and healer yes that is guardian again.

     

    What anet did is not remove trinity , they broke trinity.

    Now you dont really have effective tank (no way to hold agrro) , there is no real healer ( everyone can heal , some better than other - but no one is really good at healing ) - basically what everyone can do is nuking. This is what everyone can do effectively.

    So if you can not tank, or heal ... you have no choice but to nuke and hope you will come on top - or run fast enough back , before the whole party wipe.

     

    Except Warrior and Assassin are crazy damage dealers and Necro is a beefy tank.

    And Earth elementalist have no problem surviving damage and elementalists are awesome condition removal support.

    And rangers with a single skill are one of the best healers and even warrior shouter can do a nice amount healing.

    Anet didn't say there would be dedicated tankers, healers or nukers.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    ANet only needs to scale content up in other dimensions too, so zerging alone is not the most effective way. If DEs would be expanded depending on the number of players participating, it would be more challenging. Right now there are not enough mechanics to punish mindless zerging in high level areas (pve).

    WvW is fine, because not zergs decide battles, war machinery does. If you think otherwise you haven't been crushed by a good opposition yet. Dungeons are fine as they are. You are rewarded for being tankier or squishier if you can manage to dodge the most damaging attacks, you will be fine. GW2's combat is supposed to be rather chaotic, but it still is fun and challenging. If you die more than the average player than it will cost you a lot. Difficulty in GW2 is a money sink. Good players will always be wealthier than bad players and need lesss time to complete something. Just because you have tried x times to clear a dungeon doesn't mean the dungeon is easy. Try to clear a dungeon without being defeated once, then the dungeon is either too easy or you the player are really good.

    Difficulty in GW2 makes stuff more time consuming and expensive.
  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member

    It depends what you think a honest answer is.

    In my and many other peoples opinions that are playing dungeons with barely anyone dying, dungeons aren't graveyard runs.

    For people that never learned to utilize what they have properly and aren't good teamworkers either,  dungeons are "graveyard" runs.

    As about the tiring claims of some other people that GW2 is a "anti social" game, I can only say that people need to finally sit down and understand that GW2 as also almost all MMOS out there, are as social as they can be.

    The main difference between GW2 and other mmos is that in GW2 it is YOUR CHOICE if you wanna be social or not in most parts of the game (except of dungeons and spvp as also certain bosses in the open field you can't defeat alone).

    So the game is actually very social and all tools to be social are given.

    The problem in it is that many people don't care about grouping and are anti social soloers themselves.

    If you wanna be social then do something about it yourself instead of expecting the game to do everything for you.

    It's as easy as that.

    Forced grouping is rather anti social than social in the first place. Most of all in games with trinity design in which people need to have a certain class or build or they can't join a group.

    This prevents them from enjoying further contents, leads to drama and issues as also frustration to say the least.

    Last but not least: MMOEXPOSED wasn't right.

    At least that's that's what Raekon told me. ;p

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    ANet only needs to scale content up in other dimensions too, so zerging alone is not the most effective way. If DEs would be expanded depending on the number of players participating, it would be more challenging. Right now there are not enough mechanics to punish mindless zerging in high level areas (pve).

     

    WvW is fine, because not zergs decide battles, war machinery does. If you think otherwise you haven't been crushed by a good opposition yet. Dungeons are fine as they are. You are rewarded for being tankier or squishier if you can manage to dodge the most damaging attacks, you will be fine. GW2's combat is supposed to be rather chaotic, but it still is fun and challenging. If you die more than the average player than it will cost you a lot. Difficulty in GW2 is a money sink. Good players will always be wealthier than bad players and need lesss time to complete something. Just because you have tried x times to clear a dungeon doesn't mean the dungeon is easy. Try to clear a dungeon without being defeated once, then the dungeon is either too easy or you the player are really good.

     

    Difficulty in GW2 makes stuff more time consuming and expensive.

    There is no doubt DE's need a better scalling - they work very well up to 5-10 players (depending of the particular event) but just adding more mobs and/or beefing the boss hp doesn't compensate the addtion of more players over 5-10. They need different mobs with different skills and coordination.

    WvW is not exactly working properly atm - in the BWE everyone feared the arrow cart, now no one cares.

    Siege weapons being capped at 5 targets isn't good, neither is the fact the battle locations are indicated in the map.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,047Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    I think he was both right and wrong.

    You see here Anet dropped the ball entirely.

     

    When Anet stated they are removing the trinity - it promised that any class could do any of trinity roles.

    In other words - elementalist could be dedicated tank , warrior could be dedicated healer and necromancer could be nuker...

     

    Which is not what actually happens.

    Guardian is still by far most effective tank , elementalist is by far most effective nuker ... and healer yes that is guardian again.

     

    What anet did is not remove trinity , they broke trinity.

    Now you dont really have effective tank (no way to hold agrro) , there is no real healer ( everyone can heal , some better than other - but no one is really good at healing ) - basically what everyone can do is nuking. This is what everyone can do effectively.

    So if you can not tank, or heal ... you have no choice but to nuke and hope you will come on top - or run fast enough back , before the whole party wipe.

     

    Except Warrior and Assassin are crazy damage dealers and Necro is a beefy tank.

    And Earth elementalist have no problem surviving damage and elementalists are awesome condition removal support.

    And rangers with a single skill are one of the best healers and even warrior shouter can do a nice amount healing.

    Anet didn't say there would be dedicated tankers, healers or nukers.

    They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

    Did this happen ? No

    1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

    2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

    3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

    image

  • OmnifishOmnifish LondonPosts: 616Member
    Omnifish no function, beer not without!

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by bartoni33
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Karteli
    GW2 is a really boring game.  Something needs to be done.

    Well he didn't say that, but he did say it would be zergfest.

    you agree?

    Who the hell are you then?

    At this point I think he meant to post OP as an alt account. Or all the forum power has gone to his head!image

    Yada Yada ... Accept what you see.  I didn't generate the emotions from either posts.

     

    I stand by what was said.

    Exposed, next time at least remember to login your other account...........

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
     

    They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

    Did this happen ? No

    1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

    2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

    3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

    I think ANet did drop the ball on balancing but it is kinda understandable since the game hasn't been even out for more than a few months now.

    At the moment, I wouldn't be surprized if a full guardian party is more effective than different classes combined.

    <-- leveling a guardian atm. :P

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member
    You can tank in GW2 the same way you tanked in GW1. People just dont understand how you manage agro without a "taunt" skill. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
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    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
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  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    No, players that treat it like a zerg tend to do lots of corpse runs to finish a dungeon.

    If you actually know how to use combo fields and well timed defensive abilities, the dungeons run much smoother.

    I find the combat in GW2 far more interesting due to the lack of tank and spank.  I find other games with tanks just put in cheap tactics like mem wipes and death touches to create an illusion of difficulty.

    Also happy that GW2 doesnt require 3rd party programs to understand what is going on in combat, its all very visual and instinctive. Makes it feel more like a game than a math puzzle. My screen for raids in EQ2 / WoW with AE timers and such was a joke.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

    Did this happen ? No

    1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

    2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

    3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

    I think you misread or are confusing.

    They said every class could spec to be more support, more defense or more offense.

    That is true.

    But during a dungeon or encounters you should be doing all the 3, some professions are just better than others at certain aspects.

    For example a Guardian might start as (0/10)

    Offense 5

    Defense 6

    Support 6

    And if you spec in offense you raise offense to 7, spec in defense or support and you'll raise them to 8.

    A Warrior starts as

    Offense 6

    Defense 6

    Support 4

    And you spec to bring offense to 8, defense to 7 and support to 5 or 6.

    This is of course very different from holy trinity games where most chars start as

    Offense 3

    Defense 3

    Healing  3

    And you can spec to bring one single stat to 10 and if you spread at all the max you can get on a stat is 5, and the difference between 9 and 10 is bigger than the difference between 1 and 9.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    ***snip**

    They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

    Did this happen ? No

    1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

    2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

    3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

    Where has Anet ever said that?

    What they said was that there were no dedicated roles, that each class could spec for a variety of different roles, and that each player would be responsible for their own life. All three of these are still very much true.

    There's a whole range of things each class brings to the table aside from straight tankiness, healing potential, and damage. You have different forms of all 3, as well as multiple forms of utility / support. You have some classes that excel at sustained damage, some that have better burst potential, some that have better condition builds, some that have better minion builds, boons, shouts, passive buffs, control, some that are better with soft CC, others with hard CC, some better with blocks / reflection, others better with absorption & life leech.

    The one thing Anet has said in the past about classes, is that you could run their dungeons with any combination of classes and succeed. While I haven't tested every single class combo, I have run with most combinations, and succeeded with most combinations. Even questionable setups like 5 rangers, 5 thieves, or 5 elementalists I've completed dungeons with. People prefer the most direct / simplistic classes, because it cuts down on the amount of planning / coordination / thinking one has to do. However, that doesn't mean that other classes aren't also viable in the same role. It just means people don't want to figure out how to work with these other setups.

    There's really only one class atm that doesn't fit into Anet's promises, and they already came out and admitted to it. That would be the ranger, which currently bring almost nothing of value to a group.

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    I think he was both right and wrong. You see here Anet dropped the ball entirely.   When Anet stated they are removing the trinity - it promised that any class could do any of trinity roles. In other words - elementalist could be dedicated tank , warrior could be dedicated healer and necromancer could be nuker...   Which is not what actually happens. Guardian is still by far most effective tank , elementalist is by far most effective nuker ... and healer yes that is guardian again.   What anet did is not remove trinity , they broke trinity. Now you dont really have effective tank (no way to hold agrro) , there is no real healer ( everyone can heal , some better than other - but no one is really good at healing ) - basically what everyone can do is nuking. This is what everyone can do effectively. So if you can not tank, or heal ... you have no choice but to nuke and hope you will come on top - or run fast enough back , before the whole party wipe.  

    Except Warrior and Assassin are crazy damage dealers and Necro is a beefy tank.

    And Earth elementalist have no problem surviving damage and elementalists are awesome condition removal support.

    And rangers with a single skill are one of the best healers and even warrior shouter can do a nice amount healing.

    Anet didn't say there would be dedicated tankers, healers or nukers.

    They didnt say there will be dedicated. What they DID say that each class could spec into being dedicated.

    Did this happen ? No

    1. Every class can do hell lot of damage - but some can do hell lot more < - Everyone can be nuker FAIL

    2. Every class can tank - Yet tanking dungeon boss with elementalist , even Necro is cute , but not as effective as Guardian < - Everyone can be dedicated Tank FAIL

    3. Every class can heal others - Yet Elementalist and Engineer can do it whole lot better - And no class can heal enough to keep people effectively alive - Dedicated Healer FAIL

     

    No, they didn't say that. You can be a healer, tank, dps, but never be dedicated (meaning sole purpose).
  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,378Member Uncommon
    At first glance it seems that way. But when you run with a good group then you realize that no it isn't a zergfest at all. If anyone has ran even the storymode dungeon with a pug and zerged it they will know it can be painful especially if they have a good group who uses coordination. it's a night and day difference. Also wtf is the OP talking in third person. I know a majority of the crap I read by OP I don't agree with but starting a thread to try to play the "I told you so" game while approaching it in the third person is childish. NO OP the game is not a zergfest due to the traditional lack of tanking and the only thing spotlighted is that even with you on the ignore list I still am forced to see crappy threads you creat and  peoples quotes of you.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Do you think the person that gave spotlight to MMOExposed should bash their heads against the wall and wipe their behinds with a cactus every morning?

     

    I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't the person that gave him the spotlight, but then that's my personal tinfoilhattery showing through.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SiphaedSiphaed Everywhere!Posts: 876Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/1

    well that's the thread that got him Spotlight Poster.

    now looking back on it, was He right about GW2?

     

    not trying to stir emotions by the way. Serious question about his spotlight post in the past.

    No, he wasn't right.   There's some major mechanics and tactics needed for certain boss fights in PvE.  As for WvWvW....that's debateable.  Right now it's nothing but thieves running around stabbing everyone in 1-3 hit kills.   Then we've got this thing call "turtles", in which massive groups ball up as several Guardians heal everyone there and/or bubble them; mesmers portal the group around to avoid getting damage.


  • KaeriganKaerigan None Of Your BusinessPosts: 689Member

    [mod edit]

    Then Kaerigan went for a stroll with his dog, Oliver.

    <childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Yes to an extent. Lack of any death penalities is also the reason why zerging is so common.
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