Originally posted by Thresh Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?
Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.
Nope he didn't. He said he didn't enjoy punishing death. Nothing was said about challange.
And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty. Challenge is what happens during and before the fight. Not after your lost.
A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.
No he didn't imply anything like that. You are making assumptions.
He stated:
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
There are many ways to break challenging activites down so they can be done in 15-20 minute segments at a time but still take days/week/month/years to achieve. He wants to have fun, as do I. He has no need to grind, grinding is not needed for challenging activities. He doesn't need to polish his e-peen, that isn't needed for challenging activities.He doesn't want to do CR or earn back lost xp. Those are not needed to make a fight challenging.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Thresh Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?
Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.
Originally posted by Thresh Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?
Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.
Nope he didn't. He said he didn't enjoy punishing death. Nothing was said about challange.
And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty. Challenge is what happens during and before the fight. Not after your lost.
A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.
Says who?
Try to do MP10 on Diablo 3 ... very challenging. Very likely you die in 5 sec. Not a lot of time needed. Very different from dying and have to replay leveling for 10 hours.
1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours? It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial. How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore? AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear. Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...
Originally posted by Ozivois chal·leng·ing (chln-jng)
adj.
1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours? It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial. How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore? AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear. Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
Yes, harsh death penalty please. And since its going to be more sandox, i wish my gear stays on my body. In Addition, only epics should be LORE and stay with you on death.
Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers than Everquest ever had.
What games are that? EQ had 600k subscribers after the game was about 4 years old, concurrent users, not total, total it runs in the millions.
Which 4 year old games have 600k subscribers? Not many.
Which games still have 12 servers after 11 years? Not many.
GW2 probably doesn't even exist anymore in 11 years.
SoE released stats in their 10 year anniversiry video, 12 million characters were created in EQ.
60,000 people applied for beta
You can say a lot of stuff about EQ, that you didn't like the death penalty, that you didn't like the gameplay, claiming it wasn't successful just makes you ignorant.
EQ was the most successful MMO at the time, not UO, not Lineage, not AC, not DAOC, it wasn't until WOW came out that a game surpassed EQ in subscribers. What's more, those WoW designers were EQ players.
Nice padding of the numbers. They reached 450K at peak around 2003. They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay. Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was. EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark. Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either. You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast. You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content. Potions for everything and the list goes on. So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone?
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm a big fan of punishing death in mmorpg and i really like when our body stayed on the ground.
It increase the feeling of fear that i think is essential in a good immersive game.
i know a lot of people don't like it because you can lose your body and all your stuff.
maybe they should return your corp's after 1 month or make you lose only your accesory (rings,necklace,...)
my top punishing game are (eq1,UO,legend of kesmai,realm of the mad god)
what are you thinking of punishing death?
Vanguard was the first game that I played that had corpse runs, since I chose to play DAoC over EQ in my early MMORPG years. The knowledge that I could lose all my stuff didn't make the game more exciting. In fact, when I did die and if it was deep into somewhere dangerous, it would frustrate me to no end. I absolutely hate that mechanic. I honestly prefer xp loss as a death penalty and would approve of it in EQNext.
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.
If you need a game to be impossible, time-consuming, and requiring huge commitment to be fun, i think you are out of step with the mainstream consumers. Thus, that is the reason why you are complaining here, instead of enjoying the greatest latest game.
(And jsut in case you ask, i usually post when i am bored at work. Thus, you see me less in the evening when i am actually playing the games i talked about).
I miss being punished for death oddly enough. No longer do I give a crap about dieing on a quest. If I do, whoopee! I just run in and just do it over and over till I get it. Hell, there are quests where I res on my corpse, and then run as far as possible before I die again, and then I just rinse and repeat till I am towards the end hAhAHahA. Also, armour repairs are stupid cheap, and even if they weren't, I'd just do it naked.
No longer do I have to plot to be safe. Nor do I have to achieve anything before hand to accomplish most quests. With how easy all the MMO's are now a days, its no wonder none of them last as long as they used to. Or if they last, they aren't as profitable and thus go F2P. We need a developer or two that will ignore the casual crowd and give us back death penalties!!! We are the ones that continue to subscribe to their games for the long haul while the casuals drift in and out. Lately they aren't keeping either crowd anymore. Please note, I don't think all games need a penalty, but a couple here and there would be awesome.
On that note, I hope EQ Next gets a real death penalty. Screw the carebears. They don't even know what they want which is evident by the poor cycles of games that have been coming out.
Umm, I think that's a personal problem, and I don't mean that in an insulting way. I say this because when I'm playing WoW or any easy mode game, I still care if I die, because I hate the time it takes to run back to my corpse, so I'm always careful about where I tread and how many enemies I can take on.
Again, its not the harshness of the penalty, its the gameplay of it. You dont need to have a harsh penalty at all, but you should build some things around it, like being rewarded for living, speccable abilities and a strong tie to the lore of the game.
Weve tried lots of random "rules", lets try an indepth system.
Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers than Everquest ever had.
What games are that? EQ had 600k subscribers after the game was about 4 years old, concurrent users, not total, total it runs in the millions.
Which 4 year old games have 600k subscribers? Not many.
Which games still have 12 servers after 11 years? Not many.
GW2 probably doesn't even exist anymore in 11 years.
SoE released stats in their 10 year anniversiry video, 12 million characters were created in EQ.
60,000 people applied for beta
You can say a lot of stuff about EQ, that you didn't like the death penalty, that you didn't like the gameplay, claiming it wasn't successful just makes you ignorant.
EQ was the most successful MMO at the time, not UO, not Lineage, not AC, not DAOC, it wasn't until WOW came out that a game surpassed EQ in subscribers. What's more, those WoW designers were EQ players.
Nice padding of the numbers. They reached 450K at peak around 2003. They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay. Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was. EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark. Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either. You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast. You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content. Potions for everything and the list goes on. So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone?
Wrong. It lost them to other games such as daoc/wow/eve.
Wow, yeah I imagine the reaction was much different . The idea of having a death penatly system isn't to make your life harder after you die, it's to give you more incentive to not die in the first place. Similar to the excitement of OWPvP when you're looking over your shoulder. It needs to be in moderation or an imaginatative addition, such as Rungard is talking about, but I think it could work.
Yes, his line of thinking brings something more interesting the table than a boring shallow insta-respawn or corpse run mechanic. Either extreme end of the spectrum is sort of lazy game design to a degree.
You don't want DPs to be so extreme people stop taking risks and play it safe. On the other hand you want people to use a little bit of thought and tactics to the combat. It's a little bit tricky because too much of either end will result in boredom or frustration which is non-productive.
If you want people to use thought and tactics in combat, then developers need to make common encounters require thought and tactics, otherwise people just turn off their brain and just faceroll through the leveling process, like in WoW. Death penalties have nothing to do with this. If encounters are faceroll easy, does a harsh penalty really make people more careful? Nope, because they won't ever die. But if the encounters require a persons attention to actually win, the player will pay attention anyways, regardless of death penalty.
I played EQ in beta and on , and liked the harsher penalties for xps loss and corpse runs.
Out of the two I'd prefer to have corpse runs for this reason.
Vanguard was the next game after EQ that people actually stuck together in , as in if you went down as a group you stuck together to fight your way back to get your gear , today's mmorpg games are too easy to never group , or if you do its for a brief moment then off you go.
I liked the fact you depended on each other in EQ dungeons and in VG , and if the group you were in disbanded or someone dropped you'd find other folks who'd join in to help with the corpse runs.
It fostered community. I liked that.
It's ok to have easy no penalty on death games , but all of them dont have to be that way.
It would be nice to have a modern/new mmorpg that did require thinking , sticking together , and was not forgiving in death terms.
There's obviously tons of candyland easy mmorpg's , why does it bother so many that some of us want one modern EQ'ish one to play ?
(and for the record I also loved the community around trading in the East Common tunnels , you haggled in person , in chat and met up and exchanged goods and money , it was enjoyable and another thing that made it feel like a living breathing world , I just would like to have a modern graphics original EQ style game and have no problems saying so.)
........yes there needs to be risks to enjoy the rewards or over all emersion in games. Like in EQ 1 my necro would get /wispers " can you summon my corpse?" that helped build game community, which games LACK now!
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Originally posted by TheJoda ........yes there needs to be risks to enjoy the rewards or over all emersion in games. Like in EQ 1 my necro would get /wispers " can you summon my corpse?" that helped build game community, which games LACK now!
I loved those parts of true EQ (as in pre PoP expansion) also.
Necros for just that , you'd have bard taxi parties to run groups to far off spots , druid and wizard teleports to other locations etc ,
I left EQ because they slowly got rid of the virtual world feeling of the game , not because it was "too hard".
It become too unfun , too unlike it was at launch after PoP and went down from there for me.
I'm a big fan of punishing death in mmorpg and i really like when our body stayed on the ground.
It increase the feeling of fear that i think is essential in a good immersive game.
i know a lot of people don't like it because you can lose your body and all your stuff.
maybe they should return your corp's after 1 month or make you lose only your accesory (rings,necklace,...)
my top punishing game are (eq1,UO,legend of kesmai,realm of the mad god)
what are you thinking of punishing death?
Actually, I don't play games to be in fear, I play them to have fun. Odd concept, that one.
Harsh death mechanics are a terrible idea for a variety of good reasons.
- not fun for people who are sane
- discourages exploration
- discourages experimentation
- discourages grouping
What bothers me most in MMORPGs these days is the solo emphasis and lack of grouping opportunities. You wanna talk original EQ? Talk about forced grouping making players play well, behave, and worry about and develop a good reputation since if you couldn't get groups, you didn't level. Period.
I would never want to return to the boring days of camp and grind and forced grouping, but I WOULD like to see MMORPGs be more about grouping and less about solo ez-mode, which IMO, leads to lots of brats and poor players. I would like to see MUCH more group content and grouping potential.
We'll never get to a point where grouping is encouraged and more optional group content is viable with harsh death penalties, because nobody wants to group if there's a risk of losing xp and/or gear due to someone else screwing up. It's critical to have tolertable death penalties to encourage grouping.
Harsh death penalties are akin to a kick in the nuts. Do you really need to be kicked in the nuts to enjoy your game? If you do, I sure hope you're the minority.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.
If you need a game to be impossible, time-consuming, and requiring huge commitment to be fun, i think you are out of step with the mainstream consumers. Thus, that is the reason why you are complaining here, instead of enjoying the greatest latest game.
(And jsut in case you ask, i usually post when i am bored at work. Thus, you see me less in the evening when i am actually playing the games i talked about).
You are correct that the market hasent been in our favor these last what, 7 years? Most in part to WOWs huge success. With that said. The market as infact started to show signs that people are looking for something else. A modern MMos life span isent very long. a few short months if.
Our lack of a quality MMO is huge reason why we complaine here ther is no question about that. But perhaps all the bitching and complaing over the years and the long term success of modern MMOs will start to slide the bar back to our side again.
With games like EQN, AA, EoC, DF UHW, BD, WarZ, Salem and so on and so on, The future is looking up for us.
Originally posted by TheJoda ........yes there needs to be risks to enjoy the rewards or over all emersion in games. Like in EQ 1 my necro would get /wispers " can you summon my corpse?" that helped build game community, which games LACK now!
I loved those parts of true EQ (as in pre PoP expansion) also.
Necros for just that , you'd have bard taxi parties to run groups to far off spots , druid and wizard teleports to other locations etc ,
I left EQ because they slowly got rid of the virtual world feeling of the game , not because it was "too hard".
It become too unfun , too unlike it was at launch after PoP and went down from there for me.
i want either a harsh death penalty or a very long leveling curve, im sick of mmorpg that i finish faster then my single player games.
I am pretty much done with this genre unless something change. I have playd it for 10 years and should't realy complain, but i can't help it though. When i finish my mmorpg faster then my single person games, i feel the main draw of this genre is over.
edit : Since wow i cant remeber the last game i playd past the 30 free days, i did sub an extra month to Tsw but since i never log in after doeing so i dont count it.
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.
If you need a game to be impossible, time-consuming, and requiring huge commitment to be fun, i think you are out of step with the mainstream consumers. Thus, that is the reason why you are complaining here, instead of enjoying the greatest latest game.
(And jsut in case you ask, i usually post when i am bored at work. Thus, you see me less in the evening when i am actually playing the games i talked about).
You are correct that the market hasent been in our favor these last what, 7 years? Most in part to WOWs huge success. With that said. The market as infact started to show signs that people are looking for something else. A modern MMos life span isent very long. a few short months if.
Our lack of a quality MMO is huge reason why we complaine here ther is no question about that. But perhaps all the bitching and complaing over the years and the long term success of modern MMOs will start to slide the bar back to our side again.
With games like EQN, AA, EoC, DF UHW, BD, WarZ, Salem and so on and so on, The future is looking up for us.
quality is in the eye of the beholder. Anything that requires "wasting" 20 min to walk/talk before i can run a dungeon (or whatever the core gameplay is) is bad design to me ... and i am sure you have a different opinion.
I doubt the mainstream games are going to require people to commit their lives before it is fun. If you look at the big successes like LOL, it is all about jump in, and have fun fast.
However, the market is big. And there are smaller effort to give somethign different. Even point and click adventures are making a come back (like the Walking Dead Adv games).
Personally, i won't play a game that can't be played on my schedule, and fulfill my need for entertainment. However, i do wish you find what you are looking for.
since i have no desire to ever play another SOE game I say whenever you die a team from SOE should visit your house and give you a unanesthetized colonoscopy broadcast on live webcam and charge your credit card 100 dollars. Now that would be a incentive to stay alive
Hope it is just like EQ1. Where there is a chance to delevel. Dying in that game sucked let alone having to try to get your body back and the gear. I hope they implement all that. Miss the old EQ. I hate SOE but I guess If I want to play EQNext I gotta suck it up.
Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers than Everquest ever had.
What games are that? EQ had 600k subscribers after the game was about 4 years old, concurrent users, not total, total it runs in the millions.
Which 4 year old games have 600k subscribers? Not many.
Which games still have 12 servers after 11 years? Not many.
GW2 probably doesn't even exist anymore in 11 years.
SoE released stats in their 10 year anniversiry video, 12 million characters were created in EQ.
60,000 people applied for beta
You can say a lot of stuff about EQ, that you didn't like the death penalty, that you didn't like the gameplay, claiming it wasn't successful just makes you ignorant.
EQ was the most successful MMO at the time, not UO, not Lineage, not AC, not DAOC, it wasn't until WOW came out that a game surpassed EQ in subscribers. What's more, those WoW designers were EQ players.
Nice padding of the numbers. They reached 450K at peak around 2003. They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay. Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was. EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark. Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either. You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast. You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content. Potions for everything and the list goes on. So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone?
Wrong. It lost them to other games such as daoc/wow/eve.
nostalgia
Wrong, they were bleeding subs long before DAoC / WoW and Eve was even more hardcore, so that argument doesn't make sense. DAoC came out in 2002 and never peaked above 250K subscriptions. WoW didn't release till 2004 and it released a couple of weeks after EQ2. EQ's peak subscriptions were reached in 2003 and according to a statement made by Smedly when asked why they were making EQ2, he had said that by the time the original EQ peaked in 2003, more than 1.5 million players had tried the game, but they could never retain more than 450k, so that combined with DAoC's low numbers would completely disprove your comment. They lost a lot more subs once EQ2 released, but had been hemmorhaging long before that. Once WoW came along, casuals had their first real game to call home and all bets were off at that point.
Comments
No he didn't imply anything like that. You are making assumptions.
He stated:
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
There are many ways to break challenging activites down so they can be done in 15-20 minute segments at a time but still take days/week/month/years to achieve. He wants to have fun, as do I. He has no need to grind, grinding is not needed for challenging activities. He doesn't need to polish his e-peen, that isn't needed for challenging activities.He doesn't want to do CR or earn back lost xp. Those are not needed to make a fight challenging.
So do you.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Says who?
Try to do MP10 on Diablo 3 ... very challenging. Very likely you die in 5 sec. Not a lot of time needed. Very different from dying and have to replay leveling for 10 hours.
What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours? It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial. How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore? AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear. Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...
"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.
The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.
Nice padding of the numbers. They reached 450K at peak around 2003. They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay. Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was. EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark. Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either. You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast. You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content. Potions for everything and the list goes on. So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone?
For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Vanguard was the first game that I played that had corpse runs, since I chose to play DAoC over EQ in my early MMORPG years. The knowledge that I could lose all my stuff didn't make the game more exciting. In fact, when I did die and if it was deep into somewhere dangerous, it would frustrate me to no end. I absolutely hate that mechanic. I honestly prefer xp loss as a death penalty and would approve of it in EQNext.
If you need a game to be impossible, time-consuming, and requiring huge commitment to be fun, i think you are out of step with the mainstream consumers. Thus, that is the reason why you are complaining here, instead of enjoying the greatest latest game.
(And jsut in case you ask, i usually post when i am bored at work. Thus, you see me less in the evening when i am actually playing the games i talked about).
Umm, I think that's a personal problem, and I don't mean that in an insulting way. I say this because when I'm playing WoW or any easy mode game, I still care if I die, because I hate the time it takes to run back to my corpse, so I'm always careful about where I tread and how many enemies I can take on.
Again, its not the harshness of the penalty, its the gameplay of it. You dont need to have a harsh penalty at all, but you should build some things around it, like being rewarded for living, speccable abilities and a strong tie to the lore of the game.
Weve tried lots of random "rules", lets try an indepth system.
Wrong. It lost them to other games such as daoc/wow/eve.
nostalgia
If you want people to use thought and tactics in combat, then developers need to make common encounters require thought and tactics, otherwise people just turn off their brain and just faceroll through the leveling process, like in WoW. Death penalties have nothing to do with this. If encounters are faceroll easy, does a harsh penalty really make people more careful? Nope, because they won't ever die. But if the encounters require a persons attention to actually win, the player will pay attention anyways, regardless of death penalty.
I played EQ in beta and on , and liked the harsher penalties for xps loss and corpse runs.
Out of the two I'd prefer to have corpse runs for this reason.
Vanguard was the next game after EQ that people actually stuck together in , as in if you went down as a group you stuck together to fight your way back to get your gear , today's mmorpg games are too easy to never group , or if you do its for a brief moment then off you go.
I liked the fact you depended on each other in EQ dungeons and in VG , and if the group you were in disbanded or someone dropped you'd find other folks who'd join in to help with the corpse runs.
It fostered community. I liked that.
It's ok to have easy no penalty on death games , but all of them dont have to be that way.
It would be nice to have a modern/new mmorpg that did require thinking , sticking together , and was not forgiving in death terms.
There's obviously tons of candyland easy mmorpg's , why does it bother so many that some of us want one modern EQ'ish one to play ?
(and for the record I also loved the community around trading in the East Common tunnels , you haggled in person , in chat and met up and exchanged goods and money , it was enjoyable and another thing that made it feel like a living breathing world , I just would like to have a modern graphics original EQ style game and have no problems saying so.)
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
I loved those parts of true EQ (as in pre PoP expansion) also.
Necros for just that , you'd have bard taxi parties to run groups to far off spots , druid and wizard teleports to other locations etc ,
I left EQ because they slowly got rid of the virtual world feeling of the game , not because it was "too hard".
It become too unfun , too unlike it was at launch after PoP and went down from there for me.
Actually, I don't play games to be in fear, I play them to have fun. Odd concept, that one.
Harsh death mechanics are a terrible idea for a variety of good reasons.
- not fun for people who are sane
- discourages exploration
- discourages experimentation
- discourages grouping
What bothers me most in MMORPGs these days is the solo emphasis and lack of grouping opportunities. You wanna talk original EQ? Talk about forced grouping making players play well, behave, and worry about and develop a good reputation since if you couldn't get groups, you didn't level. Period.
I would never want to return to the boring days of camp and grind and forced grouping, but I WOULD like to see MMORPGs be more about grouping and less about solo ez-mode, which IMO, leads to lots of brats and poor players. I would like to see MUCH more group content and grouping potential.
We'll never get to a point where grouping is encouraged and more optional group content is viable with harsh death penalties, because nobody wants to group if there's a risk of losing xp and/or gear due to someone else screwing up. It's critical to have tolertable death penalties to encourage grouping.
Harsh death penalties are akin to a kick in the nuts. Do you really need to be kicked in the nuts to enjoy your game? If you do, I sure hope you're the minority.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
You are correct that the market hasent been in our favor these last what, 7 years? Most in part to WOWs huge success. With that said. The market as infact started to show signs that people are looking for something else. A modern MMos life span isent very long. a few short months if.
Our lack of a quality MMO is huge reason why we complaine here ther is no question about that. But perhaps all the bitching and complaing over the years and the long term success of modern MMOs will start to slide the bar back to our side again.
With games like EQN, AA, EoC, DF UHW, BD, WarZ, Salem and so on and so on, The future is looking up for us.
all of this x10
i want either a harsh death penalty or a very long leveling curve, im sick of mmorpg that i finish faster then my single player games.
I am pretty much done with this genre unless something change. I have playd it for 10 years and should't realy complain, but i can't help it though. When i finish my mmorpg faster then my single person games, i feel the main draw of this genre is over.
edit : Since wow i cant remeber the last game i playd past the 30 free days, i did sub an extra month to Tsw but since i never log in after doeing so i dont count it.
quality is in the eye of the beholder. Anything that requires "wasting" 20 min to walk/talk before i can run a dungeon (or whatever the core gameplay is) is bad design to me ... and i am sure you have a different opinion.
I doubt the mainstream games are going to require people to commit their lives before it is fun. If you look at the big successes like LOL, it is all about jump in, and have fun fast.
However, the market is big. And there are smaller effort to give somethign different. Even point and click adventures are making a come back (like the Walking Dead Adv games).
Personally, i won't play a game that can't be played on my schedule, and fulfill my need for entertainment. However, i do wish you find what you are looking for.
I miss DAoC
Wrong, they were bleeding subs long before DAoC / WoW and Eve was even more hardcore, so that argument doesn't make sense. DAoC came out in 2002 and never peaked above 250K subscriptions. WoW didn't release till 2004 and it released a couple of weeks after EQ2. EQ's peak subscriptions were reached in 2003 and according to a statement made by Smedly when asked why they were making EQ2, he had said that by the time the original EQ peaked in 2003, more than 1.5 million players had tried the game, but they could never retain more than 450k, so that combined with DAoC's low numbers would completely disprove your comment. They lost a lot more subs once EQ2 released, but had been hemmorhaging long before that. Once WoW came along, casuals had their first real game to call home and all bets were off at that point.