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EQ next!! who want punishing death?

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  • ThreshThresh Waterloo, ONPosts: 52Member
    Originally posted by Thorbrand
    Only way EQ Next would be worth anything is it was Vanilla EQ with updated graphics. Leave all the hardcore features of the game and delvling. Man how many people today would never get past level 20 if we had xp loss and delvling. It would be awesome to not have to deal with them at end game.

     

    Lol good old days, I guess those of us grew up back then( ie 8/16 bit consoles) can appreciate some non-triviality. Not having played original EQ I admit, but having played Diablo 2 pre-expansion Hardcore I can fully appreciate such mechanics(back when forced full-game zerging wasnt a productive tactic).

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    On the very first page there is such a guy.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

     Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

    And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

    Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

    Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

    edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

     

     

    Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

    Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

     Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

    Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

    Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

    edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

     

     

    Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

    Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

     Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

     While i agree that a death penalty doesnt make an encounter more challenging i do think that death is something to be managed just like everything else in the game. Thats why im in favor of a systems approach rather than just a rule for dying.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I'd rather a game have difficult fights where my friends/guildies and I die over and over and over before finally getting it right.

    If those deaths are too punishing, unless the rewards for victory outweigh the sting of those vast # of deaths, no thanks.

    Even WoW got this wrong, IMO.

    I remember back in the day tackling WoW heroic Raids where each death would cost me 10-15g.

    A victory would net maybe 10g in cash and if I was lucky an item upgrade.

    Victory gains weren't even close to the amount of in-game resources invested into that victory after dozens of deaths.

    However the personal satisfaction / social jubilation in guild from a hard-fought victory did help make it worth it.

    The more you balance the equation of "punishing death vs. rewarding victory" in favor of the "punishing death" part - the more you have to ramp up the "rewarding victory" part.

    Simply making death sting isn't enough - you have to make something worth dying for if the death really hurts you.

    I also think people greatly underestimate or perhaps don't realize from their own experiences and histories how much death can sting in a repeat-failure situation - and how rewarding a victory can be when it's a long time coming.

    I think a really punishing death would only work as a mechanic if even during difficult encounters death was the exception to the norm.

    But would that mean the content would have to be easier or would the systems have to be tighter and more skill based rather than RNG and RPG (stat) based?

  • ThreshThresh Waterloo, ONPosts: 52Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

    Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

    Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

    edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

     

     

    Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

    Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

     Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

    If the higher chance of dying presented some kind of risk(anything from running X minutes back to your corpse to actually losing some in-game currency[ie sufficient repair costs] which would in turn be equivalent to X* amount of time spent farming) that is equivalent to a given reward... It would make more sense, as opposed to current noob-friendly PvE models where you judge the difficulty of event/area by how many times you die before youre able to make some progress(ie gw2).

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I'd rather a game have difficult fights where my friends/guildies and I die over and over and over before finally getting it right.

    If those deaths are too punishing, unless the rewards for victory outweigh the sting of those vast # of deaths, no thanks.

    Even WoW got this wrong, IMO.

    I remember back in the day tackling WoW heroic Raids where each death would cost me 10-15g.

    A victory would net maybe 10g in cash and if I was lucky an item upgrade.

    Victory gains weren't even close to the amount of in-game resources invested into that victory after dozens of deaths.

    However the personal satisfaction / social jubilation in guild from a hard-fought victory did help make it worth it.

    The more you balance the equation of "punishing death vs. rewarding victory" in favor of the "punishing death" part - the more you have to ramp up the "rewarding victory" part.

    Simply making death sting isn't enough - you have to make something worth dying for if the death really hurts you.

    I also think people greatly underestimate or perhaps don't realize from their own experiences and histories how much death can sting in a repeat-failure situation - and how rewarding a victory can be when it's a long time coming.

    I think a really punishing death would only work as a mechanic if even during difficult encounters death was the exception to the norm.

    But would that mean the content would have to be easier or would the systems have to be tighter and more skill based rather than RNG and RPG (stat) based?

     i dont think your getting death from the whole perspective though spock. I see it as not only a penalty, but also a form of advancement, gameplay and reward. 

    in my model since i reduce the penalty aspect to 1 line of 4, the penalty has already been reduced to 25% of that in a traditional game. Further to this , as i live and play (and gain exp), i can use that exp to unlock a number of abilities that modify my game towards the style i wish to play. For instance

    We start at rank zero ( remember the penalty only affects this line, other game lines like class are not affected by death)

    as i live i gain exp in the line that i can use to unlock abilities. Using a god system there could be something like 10 teirs or titles to get and there would be abilities that could be purchased (according to the god) in each tier.

    Your playing the gameand when you get enough exp you can permanently purchase an ability with the exp, but then your exp is spent so you need more. As you build your exp you reach the next tier where you can purchase different abilities and so on until you reach the final tier.

    Keep in mind though that you lose exp in this line for dying, and you also lose exp when you purchase an ability. Add to this you can only use an ability where you have sufficient exp in your bar for that rank then you have quite a challenge on your hands to get to rank 10 and get all the abilities. Remember that this line is independant of the other lines. You only lose exp in this line.

    i would also put in a 25% gain over time like eve, and limit your decent from dying by 1 level. Thus if your rank 7, you can only drop to rank 6 if you keep dying but you wont get to 8 untill you earn it all back from 6 through 7 to 8. Once you reach 8 you can only go back to 7.

    now its no longer a rule, but a system within a larger system of advancement. Since you can choose abilities that affect this line, there would be something here for everyone.

    a modern sandbox mmo needs designed systems with depth of play. Every system should have a unique form of gameplay. Add them all up and you have a very deep game.

  • xpowderxxpowderx Radcliff, KYPosts: 2,131Member Uncommon
    Im for a punishing death. Similar to the original EQ. As the sense of accomplishment you gain from surviving a brutal set of events usually supercede a death. The one thing many mmos fail to accomplish with e-z mode survival. That truly felt sense of accomplishment and achievement.
  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    On the very first page there is such a guy.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

     Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

    And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

     

    A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    On the very first page there is such a guy.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

     Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

    And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

     

    A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

     No he didn't imply anything like that.  You are making assumptions.

    He stated:

    Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.

    I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.

    There are many ways to break challenging activites down so they can be done in 15-20 minute segments at a time but still take days/week/month/years to achieve.  He wants to have fun, as do I.  He has no need to grind, grinding is not needed for challenging activities.  He doesn't need to polish his e-peen, that isn't needed for challenging activities.He doesn't want to do CR or earn back lost xp.  Those are not needed to make a fight challenging. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    On the very first page there is such a guy.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

     Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

    And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

     

    A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

      You are making assumptions.

     

    So do you.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Thresh
    Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

     Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

    On the very first page there is such a guy.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

     Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

    And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

     

    A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

    Says who?

    Try to do MP10 on Diablo 3 ... very challenging. Very likely you die in 5 sec. Not a lot of time needed. Very different from dying and have to replay leveling for 10 hours.

     

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member
    chal·leng·ing (chimagelimageimagen-jimageng)
    adj.
    1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
     

     

    What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours?  It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial.  How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore?  AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear.  Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    chal·leng·ing (chimagelimageimagen-jimageng)
    adj.
    1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
     

     

    What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours?  It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial.  How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore?  AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear.  Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...

    "real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.

    The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.

  • xDayxxDayx St Charles, MOPosts: 712Member
    Yes, harsh death penalty please. And since its going to be more sandox, i wish my gear stays on my body. In Addition, only epics should be LORE and stay with you on death.
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by ice-vortex

    Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers  than Everquest ever had.

    What games are that? EQ had 600k subscribers after the game was about 4 years old, concurrent users, not total, total it runs in the millions.

    Which 4 year old games have 600k subscribers? Not many.

    Which games still have 12 servers after 11 years? Not many.

    GW2 probably doesn't even exist anymore in 11 years.

    SoE released stats in their 10 year anniversiry video, 12 million characters were created in EQ.

     

    60,000 people applied for beta

     

    You can say a lot of stuff about EQ, that you didn't like the death penalty, that you didn't like the gameplay, claiming it wasn't successful just makes you ignorant.

    EQ was the most successful MMO at the time, not UO, not Lineage, not AC, not DAOC, it wasn't until WOW came out that a game surpassed EQ in subscribers. What's more, those WoW designers were EQ players.

    Nice padding of the numbers.  They reached 450K at peak around 2003.  They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay.  Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was.  EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark.  Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either.  You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast.  You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content.  Potions for everything and the list goes on.  So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone? 

    image
  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    "real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.

    The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.

    For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by whiteoak21

    I really want  EQnext to be like eq1 but better.

    I'm a big fan of punishing death in mmorpg and i really like when our body stayed on the ground.

    It increase the feeling of fear that i think is essential in a good immersive game.

    i know a lot of people don't like it because you can lose your body and all your stuff.

    maybe they should return your corp's after 1 month or make you lose only your accesory (rings,necklace,...)

    my top punishing game are (eq1,UO,legend of kesmai,realm of the mad god)

    what are you thinking of punishing death?

     

     

    Vanguard was the first game that I played that had corpse runs, since I chose to play DAoC over EQ in my early MMORPG years. The knowledge that I could lose all my stuff didn't make the game  more exciting. In fact, when I did die and if it was deep into somewhere dangerous, it would frustrate me to no end. I absolutely hate that mechanic. I honestly prefer xp loss as a death penalty and would approve of it in EQNext.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    "real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.

    The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.

    For many of us, which appears to be a growing number, overly easy breezy mmos are simply not fun. Fun is why we're all here, a fact that seems to elude you from reading your posts. There are certain types of people that are not as easy to entertain. More power to you though that you're finding such a vast sea of fun with the genre's current crop of titles. I guess it's almost like having a very low tolerance for alcohol; in the end it's nothing but a win win.

    If you need a game to be impossible, time-consuming, and requiring huge commitment to be fun, i think you are out of step with the mainstream consumers. Thus, that is the reason why you are complaining here, instead of enjoying the greatest latest game.

    (And jsut in case you ask, i usually post when i am bored at work. Thus, you see me less in the evening when i am actually playing the games i talked about).

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by madazz

    I miss being punished for death oddly enough. No longer do I give a crap about dieing on a quest. If I do, whoopee! I just run in and just do it over and over till I get it. Hell, there are quests where I res on my corpse, and then run as far as possible before I die again, and then I just rinse and repeat till I am towards the end hAhAHahA. Also, armour repairs are stupid cheap, and even if they weren't, I'd just do it naked. 

    No longer do I have to plot to be safe. Nor do I have to achieve anything before hand to accomplish most quests. With how easy all the MMO's are now a days, its no wonder none of them last as long as they used to. Or if they last, they aren't as profitable and thus go F2P. We need a developer or two that will ignore the casual crowd and give us back death penalties!!! We are the ones that continue to subscribe to their games for the long haul while the casuals drift in and out. Lately they aren't keeping either crowd anymore. Please note, I don't think all games need a penalty, but a couple here and there would be awesome.

    On that note, I hope EQ Next gets a real death penalty. Screw the carebears. They don't even know what they want which is evident by the poor cycles of games that have been coming out.

    Umm, I think that's a personal problem, and I don't mean that in an insulting way. I say this because when I'm playing WoW or any easy mode game, I still care if I die, because I hate the time it takes to run back to my corpse, so I'm always careful about where I tread and how many enemies I can take on. 

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    Again, its not the harshness of the penalty, its the gameplay of it. You dont need to have a harsh penalty at all, but you should build some things around it, like being rewarded for living, speccable abilities and a strong tie to the lore of the game.

    Weve tried lots of random "rules", lets try an indepth system.

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Vineland, NJPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by ice-vortex

    Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers  than Everquest ever had.

    What games are that? EQ had 600k subscribers after the game was about 4 years old, concurrent users, not total, total it runs in the millions.

    Which 4 year old games have 600k subscribers? Not many.

    Which games still have 12 servers after 11 years? Not many.

    GW2 probably doesn't even exist anymore in 11 years.

    SoE released stats in their 10 year anniversiry video, 12 million characters were created in EQ.

     

    60,000 people applied for beta

     

    You can say a lot of stuff about EQ, that you didn't like the death penalty, that you didn't like the gameplay, claiming it wasn't successful just makes you ignorant.

    EQ was the most successful MMO at the time, not UO, not Lineage, not AC, not DAOC, it wasn't until WOW came out that a game surpassed EQ in subscribers. What's more, those WoW designers were EQ players.

    Nice padding of the numbers.  They reached 450K at peak around 2003.  They went through more than 1.5 million subscibers, but lost the majority of them due to harsh gameplay.  Enter a more casual EQ2 to catch those gamers who couldn't stand how hardcore most of the Original EQ was.  EQ still has a pretty strong following, estimations would seem to be below the 100k mark.  Keep in mind that you now have an EQ with no corpse runs as you can summon your corpse with NPC's at the guild lobby so you can use a resurrection spell for some XP return and you don't leave loot on the corpses anymore either.  You have a huge teleport hub in the Plane of Knowledge, so travel is incredibly easy and fast.  You now have mercenaries that let you solo to your heart's content.  Potions for everything and the list goes on.  So, tell me, what exactly is it about this game that helps retain players when most of the hardcore, time wasting mechanics are gone? 

    Wrong. It lost them to other games such as daoc/wow/eve.

    nostalgia

    image

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Aelious

    Wow, yeah I imagine the reaction was much different image.  The idea of having a death penatly system isn't to make your life harder after you die, it's to give you more incentive to not die in the first place.  Similar to the excitement of OWPvP when you're looking over your shoulder.  It needs to be in moderation or an imaginatative addition, such as Rungard is talking about, but I think it could work.

    Yes, his line of thinking brings something more interesting the table than a boring shallow insta-respawn or corpse run mechanic.  Either extreme end of the spectrum is sort of lazy game design to a degree.

    You don't want DPs to be so extreme people stop taking risks and play it safe.  On the other hand you want people to use a little bit of thought and tactics to the combat.  It's a little bit tricky because too much of either end will result in boredom or frustration which is non-productive.

    If you want people to use thought and tactics in combat, then developers need to make common encounters require thought and tactics, otherwise people just turn off their brain and just faceroll through the leveling process, like in WoW. Death penalties have nothing to do with this. If encounters are faceroll easy, does a harsh penalty really make people more careful? Nope, because they won't ever die. But if the encounters require a persons attention to actually win, the player will pay attention anyways, regardless of death penalty.

  • Dahkot72Dahkot72 Pelham, ALPosts: 261Member

    I played EQ in beta and on , and liked the harsher penalties for xps loss and corpse runs.

    Out of the two I'd prefer to have corpse runs for this reason.

    Vanguard was the next game after EQ that people actually stuck together in , as in if you went down as a group you stuck together to fight your way back to get your gear , today's mmorpg games are too easy to never group , or if you do its for a brief moment then off you go.

    I liked the fact you depended on each other in EQ dungeons and in VG , and if the group you were in disbanded or someone dropped you'd find other folks who'd join in to help with the corpse runs.

    It fostered community. I liked that.

    It's ok to have easy no penalty on death games , but all of them dont have to be that way.

    It would be nice to have a modern/new mmorpg that did require thinking , sticking together , and was not forgiving in death terms.

    There's obviously tons of candyland easy mmorpg's , why does it bother so many that some of us want one modern EQ'ish one to play ?

    (and for the record I also loved the community around trading in the East Common tunnels , you haggled in person , in chat and met up and exchanged goods and money , it was enjoyable and another thing that made it feel like a living breathing world , I just would like to have a modern graphics original EQ style game and have no problems saying so.)

  • TheJodaTheJoda chicago, ILPosts: 467Member
    ........yes there needs to be risks to enjoy the rewards or over all emersion in games.  Like in EQ 1 my necro would get /wispers " can you summon my corpse?" that helped build game community,  which games LACK now!

    ....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

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