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Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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  • jadan2000jadan2000 roosevelt, NYPosts: 511Member

    1. they arent hard

    2. they lack innovation in the genre

    3. they cater to people who wont stay long to play

    4. they lack alot of world simulation that the old games used to have

     

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  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    And yet the two biggest gamnes that arguably started the market (EQ and UO) were both developed if not wholly (As in UO) at least partially (as in EQ) by corporations.

    UO was released in 1997 by Origin.  EA bought Origin in 1992

    EQ was first thought up by 989 studios which was a division of Sony Computer Entertainment America.  Later a new company Verant was spun out in 1999 then later rejoined Sony in 2000.  So Sony had a hand in EQ from the very beginning. 

    Games have really never been made by gamers for gamers (there are the one off ones that are). They have largely always been made by corporations making a product they feel will appeal to their particular audience.

    The process has always been:  A particular developer had an idea and then sold it to a corporation that was willing to fund it.

    SHHH! Your logic is not appreciated in the gamer's paradise!

  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    And yet the two biggest gamnes that arguably started the market (EQ and UO) were both developed if not wholly (As in UO) at least partially (as in EQ) by corporations.

    UO was released in 1997 by Origin.  EA bought Origin in 1992

    EQ was first thought up by 989 studios which was a division of Sony Computer Entertainment America.  Later a new company Verant was spun out in 1999 then later rejoined Sony in 2000.  So Sony had a hand in EQ from the very beginning. 

    Games have really never been made by gamers for gamers (there are the one off ones that are). They have largely always been made by corporations making a product they feel will appeal to their particular audience.

    The process has always been:  A particular developer had an idea and then sold it to a corporation that was willing to fund it.

    SHHH! Your logic is not appreciated in the gamer's paradise!

    Hah! 

    I feel like half the people on this website need to read this and stfu!

    image

    Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member
    Originally posted by jadan2000

    1. they arent hard

    2. they lack innovation in the genre

    3. they cater to people who wont stay long to play

    4. they lack alot of world simulation that the old games used to have

     

    ^^^^ This for me. 

    Also, some of Nariuss' ideas.  A difficulty slider in-game on an MMO would be cool. 

    Imagine the starter zone set to mega hard, and then people forced to group together to do any of the quests.  It would solve a lot of the "We need more social aspects" problems people keep yelling for.  And solve "this is too easy" problem people keep yelling about. 

    image

    Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

    Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

    And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

    So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

    Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

    Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

     

    Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

    Sure. But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances and LFD. The problem is that good polished games like WOW is lacking this difficulty feature.

    Blizz did put this into Diablo 3 and made it a much much better game. I will actually die even when i level my alt with op gear. That never happens in WOW.

    I dunno bout you but i hate instances and i dont beleive they should belong in MMORPGs, It makes the game more like a coup dunguen crawl because once you hit max lvl thats what it is a lobby with an instance people do over and over for gear and when the finish that its a lobby with a raid instance instead. I absolutly hate instances being able to have a entire area to your group alone break immersion imo and thats what makes up a world and to me the World is the key to make something truly great.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sanshi44

    I dunno bout you but i hate instances and i dont beleive they should belong in MMORPGs, It makes the game more like a coup dunguen crawl because once you hit max lvl thats what it is a lobby with an instance people do over and over for gear and when the finish that its a lobby with a raid instance instead. I absolutly hate instances being able to have a entire area to your group alone break immersion imo and thats what makes up a world and to me the World is the key to make something truly great.

    Me too.. Me too

         Back when I was till playing EQ, and they announced the new "instancing" technology I thought to myself,  "This is the begining of the end"..  That and tiering game mechanics.. Granted EQ's raiding wasn't perfect and it needed tweaking, but why throw the baby out with the bath water was beyond me.. I do like how GW2 used open world raiding that is scaled to the players.. And that NO ONE is locked out from joining in the fight..  I do like how GW2 has GOLD, SILVER, BRONZE level of rewards depending on your level of participation.. It may not be perfect, but it's the best I've seen so far.. 

         I want a game that promotes the open world and community.. The only thing I don't mind being instanced is "housing".. like how EQ2 does it.. 

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Gw2 "raiding" reminds me a little of daoc "raiding" or maybe coh.
  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    I think the thing that most of the people here might be missing is that MMORPGs were never meant to be hard. They evolved from the P&P games of the late 70's and 80's which were nothing more than a excuse for geeks to get together for some social geek fests at the kitchen table on the weekends. Remember when EQ1 came out and Wally World would not stock it because it required a 3D graphics card? At that time you had 3 or 4 mainstream MMORPG's all of which were nothing more than the kitchen table expanded. Instead of 4 or 5 geeks you had 4 or 5 hundred thousand geeks at the kitchen table. Then WoW made the genre "easy access" by lowereing the hardware requirements. People by by the millions dixcoverd that they to could play geek simply by devoting a good portion of their spare time to the game. Geek was sudenly cool !

    Now it has simply getting old for a lot of people, geek is no longer cool. WoW is last generation and old hat and headed to Simville. There have been wild west mmo's, cowboy MMO's, Roman MMO's, space MMO's, Lovecraftian MMO's etc etc etc all trying to recapture the glory days of EQ1 and it just ain't happening. Graphics are bettter, sound effects and cut scenes are amazing, voice communication has came to guild chat but the old days of half a dozen geeks around the kitchen table got lost in the journey.

    I started at the kitchen table, graduated to King's Quest and Quake and now have went full circle and am back to my roots of FPS and single player RPG's. The glory days of MMORPG's are gone and they were fun not because they were hard or difficult but simply were a way for me to get together with a few dozen other geeks and socialize. What made those days special were not because the games were "hard" or required a lot of strategy or motor skills, but becauue of the socialization factor and the timesinks involved.

     

    I miss DAoC

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Jackdog

    I started at the kitchen table, graduated to King's Quest and Quake and now have went full circle and am back to my roots of FPS and single player RPG's. The glory days of MMORPG's are gone and they were fun not because they were hard or difficult but simply were a way for me to get together with a few dozen other geeks and socialize. What made those days special were not because the games were "hard" or required a lot of strategy or moter skills, but becauue of the socialization factor and the timesinks involved.

     

    Sad for departed gamers :/  But, life happens, ya know?

    Don't feel bad for the people on this site; in lots of cases, they just cannot let go.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ThenThen JohannesburgPosts: 68Member

    All I can say is playability, it has become more playable.

    So it does not mean its easier or harder, just that the game runs more naturally.

    Without feeling like you are being held back by some invisable wall.

    So over the years this has become the focus of all games, and thus it might be easier, esp for the 

    old timers, since they had to walk x miles every day to school barefoot.

     

    just saying :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    hard or easy isnt that just opinions that will be different with every person?  some people might think makeing mobs harder to kill by having us do less damage to them and having them do a little more damage to us makes that encounter harder. personally  i find that to be a cop out. harder to me would be makeing the challenge about knowledge of the situation. tactics on how to kill a mob not just swing my weapon 100 more times.

     

    aim high? aim low? is the mob more vulnerable to fire? or maybe slashing? good thing i have multiple weapons. oh wait if this mob hits me twice with his magic im dead i better keep moving!  If i attack that mob im going to have his whole crew on me i better be carefull and only fight groups i can handle.  Damn if i die way out here in the middle of that mess of mobs im going to need help getting my body back i better be carefull.

     

    Those are all things that i use to have to deal with in a older MMO. in todays MMOs i have my one weapon for every encounter no matter what. i stand there and just swing it a million times pressing some skills when they are off coodown. if i die who cares i just come back to this area in about 2 min ( because anything longer would be considered stupid and this game is dumb ).

     

    There is no real threat from the mobs in games anymore, if we start off at level 1 and can actually die to a mob people would have a melt down on how lame that is. personally i would welcome the challenge from day one. tired of all the hand holding.

    That is the whole point i was trying to make. That is why a difficulty slider is the solution.

    There is a game you actually can die (very often i may add), at Level 1. Diablo 3. Set MP to 10 .. and you will die.

     how could you do this in a open world? only maybe in a instanced/zoned game, and arnt we all tired of that crap by now?

    This is discussion is about difficulty, not about getting rid of instances. Given that instances is a main feature of many MMOs, this obviously can apply easily.

    In an open world, you can also set difficulty and scale with some rules. I posted some possibities before, and here is another try:

    1) whoever tag the mob set the difficulty level.

    2) everyone has a different difficult level, and scale accordingly (so if i set it to high, i do 10 pts of damage, and if you set it to low, the same attack with same gear does 100 pts). Now this will create conflict (like why do you set on easy and kill my mob in 3 swings).

    3) whoever tage the mob "owns" it .. so only his group can fight it.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sanshi44
     

    I dunno bout you but i hate instances and i dont beleive they should belong in MMORPGs, It makes the game more like a coup dunguen crawl because once you hit max lvl thats what it is a lobby with an instance people do over and over for gear and when the finish that its a lobby with a raid instance instead. I absolutly hate instances being able to have a entire area to your group alone break immersion imo and thats what makes up a world and to me the World is the key to make something truly great.

    That is just you. Lobby and instances are good, popular gameplay features and many enjoy. In fact, i prefer games with lobby and instances (not necessarily MMos).

    A world is not always fun. Devs should not put everything in a world just because.

     

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    MMOs were never hard.


    Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


    Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

    This.

     

    Also, I don't think much has changed as far as gameplay, interface etc from game to game. Everything is familiar.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    MMOs were never hard.


    Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


    Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

    This.

     

    Also, I don't think much has changed as far as gameplay, interface etc from game to game. Everything is familiar.

    I notice that the people making ignorant claims like this are the ones who never played old MMOs, and thus have absolutely zero perspective.

    How about you listen to the people that actually have over a decade of games to compare, rather than just assuming that they're wrong?

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Gw2 "raiding" reminds me a little of daoc "raiding" or maybe coh.

    That's not true, GW2 raiding is nowhere near as good as DAoC raids were. Though, can't really blame GW2 for that, very few games have raids better than DAoC, or as bad as WoW's raiding system.

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    MMOs were never hard.


    Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


    Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

    This.

     

    Also, I don't think much has changed as far as gameplay, interface etc from game to game. Everything is familiar.

    I notice that the people making ignorant claims like this are the ones who never played old MMOs, and thus have absolutely zero perspective.

    How about you listen to the people that actually have over a decade of games to compare, rather than just assuming that they're wrong?

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Gw2 "raiding" reminds me a little of daoc "raiding" or maybe coh.

    That's not true, GW2 raiding is nowhere near as good as DAoC raids were. Though, can't really blame GW2 for that, very few games have raids better than DAoC, or as bad as WoW's raiding system.

    How about I have, I just don't agree with you?

     

    *Gasp* People have differing opinions.

     

    Way to call someone ignorant and then be ignorant in the same sentence you pillock.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    A lot in MMOs has changed, a lot stayed the same.

    What used to make this genre different was the community aspects.

    Now? The communtiy in a MMO game isn't much different than the community for a FPS game or RTS etc.

    Really isn't a sense of belonging anymore, everyone is just a number.

    Which is pretty much what happens when something is mainstream.

    MMORPG's today are a lot better games, but the communities are far, far worse and as such they aren't really a special niche of gaming anymore - and as such they're just like any other game.

    Your mileage will vary.

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member


    MMOs can still be challenging today. In fact they offer different challenge levels.
    You have ordinary (everday) questing. This aspect of MMOs can most easily be soloed. Then you have small group content and large group content. The latter two options can provide some challenge.


    The main culprits which kill the challenge are the two main systems of progression in this kind of games: Level increase and equipment.


    People aren't satified with just playing the game and enjoying their time by simply playing the game. They want a "stronger pat on the back" in form of rewards (power increase, money, improved equipment). Now these rewards kill the challenge aspect if they turn your character more powerful, especially when your character then "outgrows" the available content. If your character grows more powerful the player can resort to more lazy tactics. Lazy tactics in general don't require the same degree of teamwork as before. More powerful characters are more forgiving to errors by a player. Then it seems like the challenge has gone and things get a bit more boring.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    MMOs were never hard.


    Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


    Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

    This.

     

    Also, I don't think much has changed as far as gameplay, interface etc from game to game. Everything is familiar.

    I notice that the people making ignorant claims like this are the ones who never played old MMOs, and thus have absolutely zero perspective.

    How about you listen to the people that actually have over a decade of games to compare, rather than just assuming that they're wrong?

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Gw2 "raiding" reminds me a little of daoc "raiding" or maybe coh.

    That's not true, GW2 raiding is nowhere near as good as DAoC raids were. Though, can't really blame GW2 for that, very few games have raids better than DAoC, or as bad as WoW's raiding system.

    How about I have, I just don't agree with you?

     

    *Gasp* People have differing opinions.

     

    Way to call someone ignorant and then be ignorant in the same sentence you pillock.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather assume you were ignorant than stupid.

    But, you know what they say about assumptions I suppose. If you honestly think that MMOs haven't changed since WoW and publishers showed up baahahahaa, ooh man. Can you even tell the difference between Saving Private Ryan and Transformers?

  • A problem with *some* MMOs is that they are too easy - I agree with that. I personally find it very difficult to keep the interest up when playing a game that doesn't require me paying any attention to what I'm doing. An extreme example would be doing a WoW heroic dungeon while watching TV. I think the majority of a game's content should lie in the sweet spot between trivially easy and frustratingly hard.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Davis

    I meant as in gw2 "raiding" is inclusive, anyone can join in and do their bit. Which does remind me of daoc with everyone and his dog joining in.

    As opposed to wow style elitist raiding.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Davis

    I meant as in gw2 "raiding" is inclusive, anyone can join in and do their bit. Which does remind me of daoc with everyone and his dog joining in.

    As opposed to wow style elitist raiding.

    Right, I agree it was a very good raiding system. The devs focused on making mobs with scaling AI rather than limited instanced encounters with gimmicks you had to memorize to win.

    WoW raids are more like Simon than tactical encounters.

    DAoC raids, a group of 35 people could succeed where 200 would fail.

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    MMOs were never hard.


    Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia.


    Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.

    This.

     

    Also, I don't think much has changed as far as gameplay, interface etc from game to game. Everything is familiar.

    I notice that the people making ignorant claims like this are the ones who never played old MMOs, and thus have absolutely zero perspective.

    How about you listen to the people that actually have over a decade of games to compare, rather than just assuming that they're wrong?

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Gw2 "raiding" reminds me a little of daoc "raiding" or maybe coh.

    That's not true, GW2 raiding is nowhere near as good as DAoC raids were. Though, can't really blame GW2 for that, very few games have raids better than DAoC, or as bad as WoW's raiding system.

    How about I have, I just don't agree with you?

     

    *Gasp* People have differing opinions.

     

    Way to call someone ignorant and then be ignorant in the same sentence you pillock.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather assume you were ignorant than stupid.

    But, you know what they say about assumptions I suppose. If you honestly think that MMOs haven't changed since WoW and publishers showed up baahahahaa, ooh man. Can you even tell the difference between Saving Private Ryan and Transformers?

    You should learn some reading comprehension before throwing around accusations of stupidity.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,980Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    Wow bias much? When you say WoW clone you mean it is extremely similiar to WoW, not a copy in every way like the definition you so cling to. Ever heard of figures of speech? Wake up you're playing an unoriginal WoW clone. Yes clone.

     Exactly, I rest my case, there are no WOW clones.

    Sigh, because I wearied of trying to explain the conceptual use of the term WOW-clone I switched over to "standard theme park MMORPG" because it resulted in less conversations like this.

    Not worth it to split hairs over such things.

    Edit: now see, there's something that got easier.... just like modern day MMORPG's.  (well, less time consuming at least, that's for sure)

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    The problem is that MMO content is fully digested and made public long before it goes "live."  You run into situations where people expect you to know the fights before you even set foot in the dungeons/raids.  You end up experiencing the game through Youtube videos before experiencing the game yourself.  No developer can get around that anymore, so there are fewer surprises.

    You make me like charity

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    The problem is that MMO content is fully digested and made public long before it goes "live."  You run into situations where people expect you to know the fights before you even set foot in the dungeons/raids.  You end up experiencing the game through Youtube videos before experiencing the game yourself.  No developer can get around that anymore, so there are fewer surprises.

    But surprise is not the only way to have challenge.

    Just look at diablo 3. There are probably a milion guides of covering every conceivable angle of the game and it is still hard (if you set the challenge level high).

    You will die a lot if you are not careful. In fact, most players die from time to time even on familiar farming runs.

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