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Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by furidiam

    There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these social games looking at the profits.

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

     

    There are a couple of mmo since WOW that are not hand holding and the old one are still here, if you choose to play these new types of MMO then you only have yourself to blame.

    Uh, there's been ONE AAA MMO since WoW came out that was challenging/not a WoW clone.

    And no, those old games aren't there anymore, or we'd be playing them.

    Really, so EQ isn't here no more and Ryzom and EVE,DAOC and what is a wow clone?

    There has never been a WOW clone, do you know the meaning of the word clone?

    Ah, you mean a MMO that has quests and level progression, if that's the case then you need to stop playing MMO because they all have some sort of progression. Whether it's levelling skills or levelling to, gain skills or questing or levelling crafting they all have it.

    Time for you to stop playing MMOs.

    And what AAA MMO do you think is a challenging.

    There was never a WoW clone? hahaha. Oh boy. What do you think Rift, LotRO, AoC, SWTOR, and WAR's PvE are? They even have the same UI. Get some perspective. Progression isn't the issue here.

    And no, EQ, DAoC, and all the pre WoW MMOs are no longer there in the form that we remember. Hence why people stopped playing.

    And the only decent AAA MMORPG of the last 8 years was Vanguard. Maybe GW2 now, but that has its own gaping flaws.

    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    No what changed is that i grew up and i don't find anything hard anymore;) 

    No what changed is that I grew older and everything keeps getting harder.  image

    Viagra. right? (too easy)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by furidiam

    There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these social games looking at the profits.

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

     

    There are a couple of mmo since WOW that are not hand holding and the old one are still here, if you choose to play these new types of MMO then you only have yourself to blame.

    Uh, there's been ONE AAA MMO since WoW came out that was challenging/not a WoW clone.

    And no, those old games aren't there anymore, or we'd be playing them.

    Really, so EQ isn't here no more and Ryzom and EVE,DAOC and what is a wow clone?

    There has never been a WOW clone, do you know the meaning of the word clone?

    Ah, you mean a MMO that has quests and level progression, if that's the case then you need to stop playing MMO because they all have some sort of progression. Whether it's levelling skills or levelling to, gain skills or questing or levelling crafting they all have it.

    Time for you to stop playing MMOs.

    And what AAA MMO do you think is a challenging.

    There was never a WoW clone? hahaha. Oh boy. What do you think Rift, LotRO, AoC, SWTOR, and WAR's PvE are? They even have the same UI. Get some perspective. Progression isn't the issue here.

    And no, EQ, DAoC, and all the pre WoW MMOs are no longer there in the form that we remember. Hence why people stopped playing.

    And the only decent AAA MMORPG of the last 8 years was Vanguard. Maybe GW2 now, but that has its own gaping flaws.

    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    You are taking the term "clone" too literally and ignoring the greater concept behind the term WOW-clone.

    Missing the forest for the trees actually.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    No what changed is that i grew up and i don't find anything hard anymore;) 

    No what changed is that I grew older and everything keeps getting harder.  image

    Viagra. right? (too easy)

    haha Viagra is account gear and as you call it white gear is a good left hand. :P

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    You are taking the term "clone" too literally and ignoring the greater concept behind the term WOW-clone.

    Missing the forest for the trees actually.

    What? Abusive miss-use of popular gamer slang terms?  Like, no wai!  Tie him to the stake!  Bring the torches!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon

    You are taking the term "clone" too literally and ignoring the greater concept behind the term WOW-clone.

    Missing the forest for the trees actually.

     

    +1

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    No what changed is that i grew up and i don't find anything hard anymore;) 

    No what changed is that I grew older and everything keeps getting harder.  image

    Viagra. right? (too easy)

    LOL, yes, I walked right into that.  Do you think they make it for MMORPG skills, particularly PVP? 

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Columbus, OHPosts: 520Member
    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    Wow bias much? When you say WoW clone you mean it is extremely similiar to WoW, not a copy in every way like the definition you so cling to. Ever heard of figures of speech? Wake up you're playing an unoriginal WoW clone. Yes clone.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    haha Viagra is account gear and as you call it white gear is a good left hand. :P

    If you find that account-bound gear makes the game too easy for you, a simple solution suggests itself...

    But the basic problem is that you want to level at maximum rate, using every possible advantage, and simultaneously bitch about how simple it is.

    Well, duh.  Who could've imagined?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by furidiam

    There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these social games looking at the profits.

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

     

    There are a couple of mmo since WOW that are not hand holding and the old one are still here, if you choose to play these new types of MMO then you only have yourself to blame.

    Uh, there's been ONE AAA MMO since WoW came out that was challenging/not a WoW clone.

    And no, those old games aren't there anymore, or we'd be playing them.

    Really, so EQ isn't here no more and Ryzom and EVE,DAOC and what is a wow clone?

    There has never been a WOW clone, do you know the meaning of the word clone?

    Ah, you mean a MMO that has quests and level progression, if that's the case then you need to stop playing MMO because they all have some sort of progression. Whether it's levelling skills or levelling to, gain skills or questing or levelling crafting they all have it.

    Time for you to stop playing MMOs.

    And what AAA MMO do you think is a challenging.

    There was never a WoW clone? hahaha. Oh boy. What do you think Rift, LotRO, AoC, SWTOR, and WAR's PvE are? They even have the same UI. Get some perspective. Progression isn't the issue here.

    And no, EQ, DAoC, and all the pre WoW MMOs are no longer there in the form that we remember. Hence why people stopped playing.

    And the only decent AAA MMORPG of the last 8 years was Vanguard. Maybe GW2 now, but that has its own gaping flaws.

    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    You are taking the term "clone" too literally and ignoring the greater concept behind the term WOW-clone.

    Missing the forest for the trees actually.

     

    That's ironic because you are taking the word clone literally hence why you think all these MMOs are WOW clone when they are actually MMOs that share features from nearly every MMO ever made.

    Clone is the wrong word.

    Missing the forest for the trees me thinks.

    image
  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon

    "Back in the day" MMORPG's were a niche, for a niche customer base.

    With WoW, the customer base grew substantially with casuals, overwhelming the "niche" population, thusly every MMORPG ever since has been catered more towards the bigger audience (the casuals) as they bring in more money than the real 'diehards of old'.

    It's just business in the end, and where the most money is made from, that's whom the companies cater for.

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    Again do you know what the word clone means? hahahaha

    Let me help you.

    a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

    computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

    make an identical copy of:

    So unless you can show me another MMO that has WOW lore, classes, world  and name their has never been a WOW clone.

    Now clones is a word that is thrown around in the MMO world that should not be in the MMO world. 

    And yes Vanguard is the only decent AAA since WOW,  i have 3 level 55s and numerous atls since beta.

    There is no MMO that is a clone of WOW.

    Wow bias much? When you say WoW clone you mean it is extremely similiar to WoW, not a copy in every way like the definition you so cling to. Ever heard of figures of speech? Wake up you're playing an unoriginal WoW clone. Yes clone.

     Exactly, I rest my case, there are no WOW clones.

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    LOL, yes, I walked right into that.  Do you think they make it for MMORPG skills, particularly PVP? 

    Er, aren't you playing spreadsheets in space right now? What would you use em for?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    haha Viagra is account gear and as you call it white gear is a good left hand. :P

    If you find that account-bound gear makes the game too easy for you, a simple solution suggests itself...

    But the basic problem is that you want to level at maximum rate, using every possible advantage, and simultaneously bitch about how simple it is.

    Well, duh.  Who could've imagined?

    You don't give up do you. If I have to go to the extremes to have any challenge let alone fun don't you think there is something wrong? The progression in wow (gear, crafting) is a huge part on what is fun as you level. Without that what do you have left? If you want to play that way by all means go right ahead. I left the game and looked else where. The problem is I'm still looking but that is another story. 

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by furidiam

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

    The only truth behind this discussion.

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fusion
    Originally posted by furidiam

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

    The only truth behind this discussion.

    Sad to say but true. Fast food for the masses!

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member

    Hmm, I have thought a lot about this lately, but I don't think it is really the "challenge" or lack of. To me it is more the kind of content a lot of devs are releasing. As someone said, games are so incredibly on-rails today, and that is partly the fault of the heavy quest hub style of play. I think a mix of dynamic events, quests, and the like can be balanced to make a decent experience, as well as an immersive world. I also would make most of today's quests tasks like in DAoC and have really long and difficult quests only. In my opinion, a quest should be epic, but a task mundane.

    I do think that GW2 has some very nice world elements to it and is perhaps one of the nicest worlds to be released lately. It is not entirely there yet, but close. I like its more open-world feel, even if some of it is still instanced. I like how the personal story is told, and the fact that the mundane tasks are bumped into as you run around exploring the world.

    Now if some of the old world mechanics from EQ1 up to DAoC were added back in, like the fantasticly deep character customization and gear customization of classic DAoC, that would make for an amazing game!

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    You don't give up do you. If I have to go to the extremes to have any challenge let alone fun don't you think there is something wrong? The progression in wow (gear, crafting) is a huge part on what is fun as you level. Without that what do you have left? If you want to play that way by all means go right ahead. I left the game and looked else where. The problem is I'm still looking but that is another story. 

    Why should I give it up?  You position is basically an insincere exaggeration, and has always been so.  People were pointing out the basic flaws in the 'ezmode' arguments from the day UO opened.

    Next game you hit?  Provided it's similarly gear-based, you'll again purchase/twink/enchant/collect every advantage you can acquire, in order to make leveling easier.  And you'll again complain that leveling is now too easy.

    Do you not see the snake eating its tail?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    You don't give up do you. If I have to go to the extremes to have any challenge let alone fun don't you think there is something wrong? The progression in wow (gear, crafting) is a huge part on what is fun as you level. Without that what do you have left? If you want to play that way by all means go right ahead. I left the game and looked else where. The problem is I'm still looking but that is another story. 

    Why should I give it up?  You position is basically an insincere exaggeration, and has always been so.  People were pointing out the basic flaws in the 'ezmode' arguments from the day UO opened.

    Next game you hit?  Provided it's similarly gear-based, you'll again purchase/twink/enchant/collect every advantage you can acquire, in order to make leveling easier.  And you'll again complain that leveling is now too easy.

    Do you not see the snake eating its tail?

    OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4
    Originally posted by Fusion
    Originally posted by furidiam

    Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

    The only truth behind this discussion.

    Sad to say but true. Fast food for the masses!

    And yet the two biggest gamnes that arguably started the market (EQ and UO) were both developed if not wholly (As in UO) at least partially (as in EQ) by corporations.

    UO was released in 1997 by Origin.  EA bought Origin in 1992

    EQ was first thought up by 989 studios which was a division of Sony Computer Entertainment America.  Later a new company Verant was spun out in 1999 then later rejoined Sony in 2000.  So Sony had a hand in EQ from the very beginning. 

    Games have really never been made by gamers for gamers (there are the one off ones that are). They have largely always been made by corporations making a product they feel will appeal to their particular audience.

    The process has always been:  A particular developer had an idea and then sold it to a corporation that was willing to fund it.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by makii
    Originally posted by ozmono

    I wonder if people look at MMOs at a time when they enjoyed them better and start attributing the inevitable decline of interest with them on things like difficulty. Or in other words are people just wearing nostalgia glasses or is game difficulty really so much worse nowdays and as detrimental to current MMOs as some would have you believe?

     

    We do not want harder mmos, dont you understand ? back then people complained when mmos were to hardcore and didnt appeal to the mass, now some of you complain they are to easy- but thats what the mass really wanted back then.

    Actually that is not true. Some want it easier, and some want it harder. Just look at say .. the official wow forums. There are people on EITHER side.

    That means the only reasonable solution is to have difficulty sliders and give people choices. There is no one size fit all.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    The problem is they aren't mmorpgs any more

    They are either orpgs - swtor, tsw, wow once you've leveled

    Or they are mmogs - planetside 2

    That is not a problem for me. A good game is a good game. I will play Diablo 3 whether it is called a online ARPG, or a MMO. And not being a mmo has nothing to do with challenges.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

     

    I haven't even mentioned the advantage of years of experience in a given system imparts on the users.

    You said you wanted a harder game.  Presumably, you don't want to leave the game you have so much time invested in.

    That leaves it up to you--to make your own challenges.

    There pretty much isn't another choice, except to go game-shopping.  Ask the Disposessed on mmorpg.com (as a group) how well that's worked out for them, the last decade or so.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4
     

    For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

    Phasing - i have no problem with .. have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

    speed leveling - i also have no problem with. I am leveling my alt in Diablo 3 on high monster power, and it is much faster than before. However, it is still fun as long as there is a challenge .. and it is there with high monster power.

    account gear - it is not a problem if you can up the difficulty.

    It boils down to this .... given reasonable gear (and i include account gear), fights are too easy. In fact, if you do dungeons (LFD) for leveling, you can just dps the boss without worrying ANY mechanics and he usually dies in seconds. Why? Because everyone is over-gear with account gear and blues.

    The solution is simple .. just put a difficulty slider in the LFD like Diablo 3. If you scale the boss hp by 10x, its damage by 3x, and xp award/gold by say 50% ... it will be fun again. Now you have to calibrate the numbers right, but it can be done.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zeppelin4

    OH I see so if you use the game mechanics and the game becomes to easy I'm the snake eating the tail. Ok next time I will skip gear, dungeons, skills, etc.. so I can find this challenge you keep bringing up.  Oh wait I'm not playing a game anymore. What fun do you find in this? 

     

    I haven't even mentioned the advantage of years of experience in a given system imparts on the users.

    You said you wanted a harder game.  Presumably, you don't want to leave the game you have so much time invested in.

    That leaves it up to you--to make your own challenges.

    There pretty much isn't another choice, except to go game-shopping.  Ask the Disposessed on mmorpg.com (as a group) how well that's worked out for them, the last decade or so.

    Personally i will leave the game if it is not fun. Time invested is just the sulk cost fallacy. Do i really want to throw away more time into a non-fun game?

    I stopped playing WOW because it is not fun. I am still playing Diablo 3 because it still is. When it stops to be fun for me, i will seek other entertainment.

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