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So PvP only games are ok, but PvE focused games must include PvP also. Why?

2

Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.
  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Fremont, CAPosts: 168Member

    I've said this in other threads. A game without pvp has the potential to be a much better pve experience. pvp forces devs to make classes more similar and less interesting/powerful, all in the name of balance.

     

    Why don't we have a game like this? Well...we do: Vanguard. Vanguards classes are pretty awesome, just everything else sucks. EQ2 was also like this. They added a convoluted pvp system in later. Those two games have some of the best classes I've ever played because the devs didn't worry about balancing them for pvp. It was all about what would be most fun to play. 

     

    I don't think a new game will ship without pvp. As other have said, it's expected content now. I personally think it's what is ruining the mmo market; dumbed down classes in the name of balance

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Margulis

    I find it interesting that while PvP players are suposedly in the minority in general, that there are WAY more mmo's that come out focused entirely on PvP then there are mmo's who put their entire focus on PvE.  

     ...

    Complete and utter nonsense! Almost every single AAA MMORPG released in the last 6-7 years have all been PvE focused. FF XIV, LotrO, EQ 2, CoX, DCU, Champions Online, STO, SW:TOR, AoC, GW 2, Aion, Tera have all, ALL been primarily PvE focused with PvP as an addition to get some more people to buy the game.

    The only AAA MMORPG I can think of which was more PvP focused was Warhammer Online. So this thread is based on a factual error. Most MMORPGs are PvE focused and very few are PvP focused so if anything we need more PvP focused MMORPGs.

    As for why PvE focused MMORPG have PvP, well because they want more people to play it, simple as that.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    "Well, thats not entirely true. Fury had no PvE, Planetside has no PvE..."

    So.. Two games, one of which is shut down and the other is a mmofps. Way to prove my point.
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Greencastle, INPosts: 2,594Member Uncommon

    Because Beer sales might suffer.

    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Zuv
    That's just true of heavy pve games with crappy tacked on afterthought pvp like wow.

    Games that put more effort into their pvp tend to have plenty of class variety, or don't even have classes at all.

    Eg.
    Eve, daoc, planetside, df, heck even gw2
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    PVE means they have to make tons of content, not many studios have the manpower to do this. Why do you think there are so many PVP sandbox indies, PVP sandbox is a great excuse for the lack of content.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

    I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The real questions are-

    Why haven't we seen more sandbox MMOs without forced PvP?

    and

    When are devs going to realize you can't win with one rule set and offer more server types?

     

    I mean, UO post Trammel was amazing sandbox, FFXI was a pseudo sandbox focused on PvE, and SWG was awesome sandbox with non-forced PvP. Besides that... *crickets*

    But UO kept a server all Felucca w/ the old (slow) skill gains (Siege Perilous).

    EQ had PvP server(s). DAOC had FFA server.

    These days all PvP servers are is exactly the same as PvE servers + ganking/griefing of other players. What fun... not.

    There are no "true" PvP servers in PvE games, PvP games have tacked on/awful PvE, and when was the last time you saw a "hardcore" / Hard-Mode server?

    Never?

    A game has to be designed from the ground up to cater to multiple playstyle, but for the love of GOD please do it on multiple server types and STOP watering doing the experience people are looking for by mashing it all together on a single server type.

    With only minor tweaks to rules and systems you could easily create -

    1. Normal servers - PvP optional at all times, soft death penalties, solo friendly w/ group content

    2. PvP servers - Faction based (please 3+) "always flagged" PvP with real territorial control of PvE world, soft death penalties, solo friendly PvE w/ group content.

    3. Hardcore PvE servers - PvP optional at all times, xp loss/item decay/loss, not very solo friendly - primarily forced grouping, slower progression rates

    4. Hardcore PvP servers - faction based (3+) and Outlaw (PK) / Bounty system, with real territorial control of world, item decay/loss, primarily forced grouping for PvE and slower progression rates.

    DONE.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Post wow games that have put effort into pvp
    Darkfall
    Warhammer
    Aion
    Gw2
    Perpetuum
    Aoc (at launch)

    Post wow games that have put hardly any effort into pvp, a token exercise in putting a marketing "got pvp" tick on the game box.
    Wow itself
    Rift (may be changing with the expansion)
    Aoc (post revamp)
    Tsw
    Swtor
    Co
    Dcuo
    Lotro
    Vanguard
    Eq2
    FF
    TERA
    sto
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
        The PVP crowd is a minority, but it is a very vocal minority......If a MMO starts with just PVE the PVP crowd will scream until PVP is implemented, regardless of the consequences for PVE....PErsonally I just want a cool world to explore and don't want PVP in the game but it is hard to find that anymore.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Theocritus
        The PVP crowd is a minority, but it is a very vocal minority......If a MMO starts with just PVE the PVP crowd will scream until PVP is implemented, regardless of the consequences for PVE....PErsonally I just want a cool world to explore and don't want PVP in the game but it is hard to find that anymore.

    The PvP crowd is a minority, but so is the crowd that only wants to play a game consisting of PvE. The bulk of people want a game that has both PvE content and PvP content.

    It seems to me you could have a game with different rule sets for different areas, and it would work just fine. There's no reason that PvE and PvP skills and mechanics need to be similar. Not from a player perspective anyway. You could have a game with FFA PvP warzones, Faction PvP zones and Flag Only PvP zones. You could have all PvP damage normalized between players and all PvE damage depend on gear and levels. Players could roll with this just fine. It might be a nightmare to code, but it could certainly work.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    I love crafting in mmo, well mostly the business aspecta nd gathering of resources. But can get tiresome. I like to mix it up.

    Ill pvp, then go pve, then craft, then go out and explore. Eventualy just chatting with the community.

     

    You have to have all aspects to make a good mmo, not just one or two.

     

    Its fun having a choice in what to do and take part in it. Limiting yourself and the game by not having it only hurts the fun factor.

    I agree, thought enjoy pvp less in MMORPG's but enjoy pvp in other genre of gaming more. But every now and then I do feel the urge to be able to pvp in a MMORPG.

    So I do feel that both pve and pvp belong in this genre alongside with crafting, harvesting, exploring, community tools/feature's, aslong everything is optional.

    World pvp like in SWG where you had the options to go Overt or Covert which meant you could PVP where ever and when ever you wanted or didn't want to PVP.

    You should be able to mix and match what ever you want but I do feel that you should only be able to master on full profession. I don't care if a full combat player is able to defeat my mixed combat/crafter character, to me that's logical, I don't need to be as powerfull as a full combat player, though if I do want to defeat that full combat character I just know I need to become a full combat character aswell.

    But everything must of course be equally beneficial, you should be able to lvl up by being a none-combat character and obviously the same goes for combat characters. There must be a balance between full master professions, but a mixer could end up with suprising skills.

    So back on topic: Yes a MMORPG should have several element of gameplay aslong all elements are optional.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    The real questions are-

    Why haven't we seen more sandbox MMOs without forced PvP?

    I'm glad you brought up Trammel, because the posterchild for sandbox is also proof that a non-PVP sandbox environment can work. image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

    I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

    But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Please list some of these countless games that forego pve entirely and is 100% pvp.

    That's right, there are none. All MMOs have some kind of pve, and most of them are heavily focused on pve, pvp being tacked on as a half-assed afterthought so that the devs can include it in the feature list. It's almost always separated from the world, instanced away in BGs or arenas or consequence-free pvp zones.

    In short: the op is either trolling or utterly clueless. 99% of the current market is catering to you, so stop crying and go play one of all the countless pve games.

     

    There are so many MMOs with such mediocre PVE.  WoW, TSW, FFXIV, etc, all amount to running around spamming buttons to kill helpless creatures. These same games are almost always judged according to their PVP or lack of PVP conent, as if PVP was synonymous with MMO. The developers of these games are always talking about what they will do for PVP to make fans happy. None of them talk about how their PVE sucks and no one talks about what makes good PVE.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Magiknight

    There are so many MMOs with such mediocre PVE.  WoW, TSW, FFXIV, etc, all amount to running around spamming buttons to kill helpless creatures. These same games are almost always judged according to their PVP or lack of PVP conent, as if PVP was synonymous with MMO. The developers of these games are always talking about what they will do for PVP to make fans happy. None of them talk about how their PVE sucks and no one talks about what makes good PVE.

    So what makes good PVE is the question.

  • bigronbigron Brooklyn, NYPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by samvenice
    Originally posted by Margulis

    I find it interesting that while PvP players are suposedly in the minority in general, that there are WAY more mmo's that come out focused entirely on PvP then there are mmo's who put their entire focus on PvE. 

     

    Is this a joke? I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's either a joke or I live in an alternate version of your universe (or I'm playing everything wrong, obviously).

    Please make a list with 2 columns: on the right mmo with entire focus on pve, on the left mmo entire focus on pvp.

    Let's see who's got it bigger: My left side column has 3 titles (daoc, eve, planetside) - what about yours? LOL.

    Also WAR, Darkfall. None of those games except Darkfall are really "pvp only" games.

    TBF, most games nowadays are pve focused w/some pvp e.g. TOR, RIFT in the western sense and TERA and AIon in the Korean one.

    Games being released without PVP are relatively rare, but happen e.g. TSW (which patched it in) and Vanguard (which AFAIK just doesn't have any).

    The PVP only games are typically MOBAs (LOL, SMITE, Warhammer:MOBA and its ilk). I'm mildly hesitant to call them MMOs but there really are a ton of them lately after LOL's success.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Originally posted by bigron
    Originally posted by samvenice
    Originally posted by Margulis

    I find it interesting that while PvP players are suposedly in the minority in general, that there are WAY more mmo's that come out focused entirely on PvP then there are mmo's who put their entire focus on PvE. 

     

    Is this a joke? I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's either a joke or I live in an alternate version of your universe (or I'm playing everything wrong, obviously).

    Please make a list with 2 columns: on the right mmo with entire focus on pve, on the left mmo entire focus on pvp.

    Let's see who's got it bigger: My left side column has 3 titles (daoc, eve, planetside) - what about yours? LOL.

    Also WAR, Darkfall. None of those games except Darkfall are really "pvp only" games.

    TBF, most games nowadays are pve focused w/some pvp e.g. TOR, RIFT in the western sense and TERA and AIon in the Korean one.

    Games being released without PVP are relatively rare, but happen e.g. TSW (which patched it in) and Vanguard (which AFAIK just doesn't have any).

    The PVP only games are typically MOBAs (LOL, SMITE, Warhammer:MOBA and its ilk). I'm mildly hesitant to call them MMOs but there really are a ton of them lately after LOL's success.

    I'm still trying to figure out why LOL is on an MMO website

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Eve and daoc, while the best games ever for pvp, aren't pure pvp games, hell lots if people pve in eve, daoc even had a pure pve server
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Tsw had pvp in cb

    It was much better than launch pvp
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

    I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

    But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

    My point wasn't that PVP is good or bad.  My point was that if you start by making a game where the entire focus is PVE, it's pretty easy to tack on PVP as an afterthought.  You re-use the game engine, artwork, skills and so forth from PVE, and there isn't that much that you have to create new.  That's not likely to give you PVP that is actually any good, but it's easy to make a check-box feature out of it that your marketing department can list on the box.  That's why most MMORPGs have PVP of some sort.

    The other way around is not true.  If you have PVP done and want to add PVE, then you have to create a world in which the PVE can take place.  You have to create a bunch of monsters, which certainly means a bunch of new artwork, and likely a bunch of new skills, too.  You have to create AI for the monsters.  You have to play-balance them, and balance the loot that they drop.  There's a fair bit of other stuff, too, but if you have a great PVP game done and want to add PVE, it takes a ton of work to even put mediocre PVE content into the game.  That's why a PVP-focused game likely won't--and shouldn't--add any PVE content.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    It's easy to tack on half-baked PVP to a mostly PVE game, but the other way around is impractical.

    I'm glad you used the words you did. After five years of people complaining that PVP was "tacked on" and an "afterthought" it's insane to not only see someone suggesting that in most MMOs PVP is way more developed than PVE, but that so many accepted that as fact and continued to the discussion based on that premise.

    But sometimes it is tacked on (games with optional PvP server) or an afterthougth (LotRO, DDO). Not all games though. Many PvE games have had a focus in PvP; however, It is another thing if they've managed to make it any good.

    Oh, I completely agree it's often tacked on, and it's been like that in many MMOs over the years, which is why I found the OP's point - and that so many just blindly followed it - pretty off the wall.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Well devs gut pve cc and class distinction for PvP purposes. To many pve people PvP is irritating due to its effects on pve. Why devs can't seem to figure out how to separate the mechanics is beyond me.
  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member

    The best things about MMOs are the social aspect, specifically playing with and against real players. Infact the only real advantage MMOs have over single player games in terms of quality gameplay mechanics is this social aspect. They have more content but in terms of actual gameplay mechanics their only real improvement over singleplayer games is the social aspect. Playing a game versus AI just isn't as fun as playing a game versus a real person and that is for many reasons.

     

    I don't think developers are stupid and I think they try and emphasize the strengths of their games. Even in a pvp game with no safe zones which is a rarity there is almost always pve content so it's not like it's left out completely but it is an afterthought, just like pvp servers have been on games that have been focussed on pve. The difference is games that focus on pvp only are far smaller and far less supported than games that have lots of PVE content and as such they normally only have one server.

     

    So these pvp games are smaller in size and less funded games which normally provide safe zones and pve content aswell. It seems to me, if anyone is neglected, the PVP players should be complaining that they don't get the attention they want and they often do.

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