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Main reason why SWTOR flopped?

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  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member


    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by superniceguy Yeah, all of them and then some, but MAIN reason would be End Game - not enough to keep you playing once maxed. SWG did not have space to begin with, but its open worlds / sandbox style, many customisable professions and crafting systems etc kept me busy until JTL came
    For me, the main reason is that it didnt have a good engine for large scale anything.

    Are you referring to SWG or SWTOR? I remember participating large fights and not experiencing any lag, look up "Lost battle of Lok" from Lowca circa August 2004, best pvp event I've ever been in. SWTOR could barely hold 25-30 people, Ilum proved that.

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  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Uronksur
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Also keep in mind..

         In SWTOR you have a Smuggler that doesn't smuggle... You have a Bounty Hunter that doesn't hunt..  And the game is riddled with illogical and contradition..... Prime Example:  Who has played the Sith Inq?  I have and at the end of your storyline we are suppose to be on the dark council.. RIGHT?   But soon as you leave that cut scene after beating the big guy.. You are right back to being a PEON doing dailies....... Really?  Dark council does dailies? This just shows to me how 1/2 assed things were done..

    Because losing access to game content like dailies after completing the class storyline would be absurd and everyone would hate it and complain about it nonstop? If you don't want to do dailies as a Darth, then don't. I imagine that there will be class content added on eventually in expansions or something like that. I mean, I'd hate to think that the devs are so stupid as to not keep developing story content.

         I think you missed the point I was trying to make..  The game was design to play as a single player RPG, with an end game co-op grind of dailies and instances..  According to the storyline there are now hundreds of new Sith Inq on the dark council per server..  lol..The logic of the game isn't there in the least.. It was poorly written and poorly designed.. Hell, even the Sith Warrior storyline is somewhat illogical..  I don't think Darth Vader was doing any dailies, and neither was Han Solo..

    /boggled

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TeknoBug

     


    Originally posted by Jonoku

    Originally posted by superniceguy Yeah, all of them and then some, but MAIN reason would be End Game - not enough to keep you playing once maxed. SWG did not have space to begin with, but its open worlds / sandbox style, many customisable professions and crafting systems etc kept me busy until JTL came
    For me, the main reason is that it didnt have a good engine for large scale anything.
    Are you referring to SWG or SWTOR? I remember participating large fights and not experiencing any lag, look up "Lost battle of Lok" from Lowca circa August 2004, best pvp event I've ever been in. SWTOR could barely hold 25-30 people, Ilum proved that.

     

         Most of the MMO's of late that I've played suffer from population lag, even GW2..  Today's era is all about amazing graphics.. Problem is, as soon as your computer has to start rendering 30 amazing spell cast, LAG CITY..  I wish there was a way people can turn on/off spell casting effects.. Also keep in mind.. Back in the old days, when you used to have classes where you only casted ONE spel, every so often, it didn't stress the local graphics.. Today's spell casting is chain casting that just puts the graphic drawing on overtime..  This is also the prime reason why raids get cut in size..

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Astropuyo
    Originally posted by Latronus

    It failed because too many people wanted it to be something it was never going to be. 

    SWG fans wanted SWG2

    KOTOR fans wanted KOTOR3

    Eve/X-Wing fans wanted free roam space

    RPers wanted, well they wanted to sit down in a chair, to swim, day/night cycles, houses, etc etc etc

    A very vocal minority wanted SGRAs

    Raiders wanted well, they wanted end game

    PvPers wanted, well does it really matter because are they ever truly happy? 

    WoW players wanted group finder/macros/add-ons/8 years of content at release 

    The list goes on and on.  The game was doomed before it ever launched because no matter what EA/Bioware did or did not do, there was no way to satisfy a majority of the players with the direction they finally took the game...

     

     

    ^-- This is exactly on the mark.

     

    Meanwhile I cannot allow someone to say something failed that is still open, if people thought any sort of rough spot was failure in the real world you'd all be aborted. (Me as well) and really whom are we to say what is fail? Last time I checked the majority of this community is either..

     

    A).Unemployed

    or

    B)Really really obsessed with bashing the big rocks into smaller more sharper barbs.

     

    Or

    C). Every mmo player is now an entitled ass not fit to game with as they flee anything for anything new.

    He was wrong on one point. You can make a game that will fill those shoes, but you can't do it when your groupthink studio won't change the game to suit reality (the audience).

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by eddieg50
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by eddieg50
    Originally posted by just1opinion

     

    There were too many things to choose just one.  Overall, the combination of those things caused me to burn out quickly and lose my will to log in.

     

    I can't help but think that if SWTOR had been more like SWG (pre-NGE) and less like WoW it would have been more successful. Still....I enjoyed the game for the brief time I played it and don't regret buying it.  Live and learn, I say. :)

       You are one of many people who say this, but the fact is that SWG was a failure so Sony instituted changes which kept the game afloat for awhile but was still a failure

    I guess this goes to show that 'Failure' is a relative term. 8 years of subscription; Fans who wish it was still running; Comes up anecdotally as a model when crafting, space combat, and many other systems are discussed.

    At this point I am disgusted by the comparison. The two games share the same IP but that is it. SWTOR isn't worthy to be mentioned in comparison to SWG.

       They are actually different games, the problem is SWG fans thought they were getting SWG2, they refused to research the game , they did not play the beta, they did not understand that Bioware was making the game.  It is hard to compare them, SWG had a more open world, get a speeder right away (post nge i believe) and have fun driving around, good crafting and harvesting (if you really get into harvesting) and a good space game, TOR has better production, voice overs, cut scenes, combat, story progression, performance, graphics (it is newer after all), small grouping, flash points.   SWG always felt to ME like a chat room combined with a sandbox and a very realistic (to realistic, do i really want to spend my game time being a dancer?) SWG world,      Tor reminds me of a single player with mmo elements and Bioware elements, WOW like but with much better story etc, linier world.  Both have their good points and bad points.     By the way length of time does not necessarily mean success, look at Vanguard, UO, the realm, asherons call. It simply means it has rabid fans (although few in number) and the developer has the resources to keep said game going.

    nor does cost of production, media hype, etc. The argument you seem to be making is not that SWTOR is success or failure, but instead you brought in the SWG strawman and said That is a failure. The person who you replied to brought up SWG, but you added the failure part.

    If SWG had the same contemporary level of quality in graphics and was still around, SWTOR would not be around. SWTOR is a vapid empty box, an exercise in front-ending cutscenes and visuals over depth. You didn't have to be a dancer in SWG, but for those who wanted it, they could be a dancer. In SWTOR you could use the jukebox, and the population in the cantinas showed how well this encouraged socialization.

     

    The man behind the curtain at Bioware has been seen, and he has produced a terrible game, whether it makes the stockholders happy or not. SWTOR was successful in disappointing customers, and in getting the industry to take a look at anemic game worlds to see if they can avoid making the same mistake.

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ObraikObraik ChristchurchPosts: 7,261Member
    Originally posted by eddieg50
    Originally posted by Obraik
    Originally posted by eddieg50
    Originally posted by just1opinion

     

    There were too many things to choose just one.  Overall, the combination of those things caused me to burn out quickly and lose my will to log in.

     

    I can't help but think that if SWTOR had been more like SWG (pre-NGE) and less like WoW it would have been more successful. Still....I enjoyed the game for the brief time I played it and don't regret buying it.  Live and learn, I say. :)

       You are one of many people who say this, but the fact is that SWG was a failure so Sony instituted changes which kept the game afloat for awhile but was still a failure

    Except, SWG didn't fail.  SWG had more success than SWTOR has had.

       That is a flawed aruguement because TOR has not been out very long. Look at Vanguard, UO, Asherons call, the realm.  games that have been going on for year after year with very few players.  The fact is that Sony saw the game as a failure because of its population and changed it to something they thought would increase it and that failed-so it was a double failure

    At the same point in time of its life, SWG was more successful than TOR.  It wasn't shutting down servers and it hadn't suffered from a major population drop.  That didn't come until 2.5 years after its release

    The changes happened because LucasArts (and SOE, no doubt) got greedy.  WoW was released and was an instant hit and redefined what a successful MMO was.  In their eyes, there was no way Star Wars shouldn't have those kind of numbers and thought something was wrong.  The first major changes weren't controversal but nothing too drastic, the fundamentals of the game remained mostly the same and the game gained new appeal.  However, nothing on the level of WoW and thus the NGE came along, which did bring some drastic changes to the game to make it more WoW like - enough changes that it could have been released as a seperate game.  This move backfired on them and they did lose a good number of subs - but the game continued to hold a healthy number of players over its years after this.

    As you may have picked up, I put most of the blame on LucasArts for these changes, due to evidence from TOR.  TOR is the ultimate move by LucasArts to copy WoW and make a Star Wars game that would have subs "worthy of the IP".  However, once again, it's blown up in their face. 

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  • ObraikObraik ChristchurchPosts: 7,261Member
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by Obraik

    No, SWG's subs topped out at around the 300-400k mark.  In pre-WoW time, this was very successful for an MMO - Everquest was really the only other Western MMO to have hit higher.  They hit 1 million boxes sold in August 2005

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/star-wars-galaxies-sales-top-a-million-units

    The link you offered shows 1 million sold but 250k subs - a 25% retention rate, and that was just after an expansion. Much less than the "tortanic" which at there latest report had at least 33% which is what SWG was after the CU (though it crashed yet again after the NGE), and I'd bet an expansion for SWTOR would bump it up way further than 25% when that time comes. Even if SWTOR fell to 25% itself a few months from now, they both were pretty much following the same trend retention wise.

    SWG isn't the success people on this board claims it was.

    No, the article is saying it had 250k subs at the time of that article, when they sold their 1 millionth copy.  That doesn't mean it didn't peak at 300-400k earlier in its lifetime.

    SWG didn't have a major population drop out until November 2005.  Until then, it held pretty steady with fairly reliable sub numbers.  It's when LucasArts got greedy that they lost those numbers.

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  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Elmer, NJPosts: 1,857Member
    SWTOR flopped?  I guess I need to tell the 1000+ people on my server at 2am to quit playing then. 

    Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.

  • Konner920Konner920 Noble, OKPosts: 293Member
    Too much running around for like ever to get to a destination. It's not fun walking around. The game was a complete bore, this is the only MMO that I can say was actually boring.
  • AhnogAhnog Keller, TXPosts: 231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    SWTOR flopped?  I guess I need to tell the 1000+ people on my server at 2am to quit playing then. 

    Agreed.

    The game has flaws, but no more than any other mmo.

    Ahnog

    Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.

  • SandboxSandbox SwedenPosts: 295Member
    Originally posted by Ahnog
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    SWTOR flopped?  I guess I need to tell the 1000+ people on my server at 2am to quit playing then. 

    Agreed.

    The game has flaws, but no more than any other mmo.

    To bad it's no mmo.

  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiPosts: 940Member Uncommon

    i voted space  being mnigame thats just removed the whole immersion of space to me.

    also endgame and how pvp was done i mean comon..light versus darkness and all we got was one frakking silly bg.

     

  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI SpbPosts: 266Member

    I vote gameplay/feeling.

    They copied WoW, it was so obvious from class mechanics. But while in WoW all this made sense, in Star Wars universe it didnt. I dunno all these heals with glowsticks firing into friendlies or bots scanning them just makes so much less sense than a shaman casting a chain heal or druid casting a regrowth. All these kiting and CC mechanics.

    That all could be ignored if it would be as comfortable and fun to play as WoW was (well, kinda, until I got totally and forever bored with it). But hell, it was not:

    - unresponsive abilities, with animation locks, lags, and shit

    - party/raid frames presenting false information. That combined with no mouseover heal, no ability to designate different combination of key/mouse presses on a raid/party frame being different heal/ability made healer's life a PITA compared to WoW

    - broken class balance in everything. cc, damage, knockbacks etc

    - uninteresting abilities. Compare any wow healer to swtor healer and how they play in pvp or pve and you'll see.

    - very "small" feeling locations, not a "vast seamless world" that WoW is.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    It failed for three reasons:

    The first is because the developers bit off way more than they could chew, and refused to acknowledge the problems it had in beta, much less fix them.  Instead, it's like they just used the beta phase to drum up hype about the game, rather than refine it.

    The second is that the game didn't launch with the basic quality of life features that any MMO should have these days.  It gave a lot of people the impression that the game launched in an unfinished state, between lack of features and the many bugs.

    The last is that with the initial launch rush, they over-estimated how popular the game would be, and created way too many servers.  As people left the game due to the above reasons, servers because desolate.

     

    You could also say the PvP potential of the game failed as well, due to the stun/mes/slow fest that it is.  PvPing while walking isn't very exciting.

    You make me like charity

  • IAmMMOIAmMMO LondonPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon
    it flopped because a MMO should be community driven not a single player game trying to be a MMO for the sake of it.  TOR should have been a single player game with  co op online play for up to 4 to 5 players and not tagged as a MMO. The story in MMO's should be created ny the players using the world you give them. No MMO focus should be on a single player type stories where the player if the hero to save all.  I've got more stories to tell than TOR in just 3 months of player Planetside 2 closed beta.
  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by Clawzon

    The game had an excellent gamedeveloper in BioWare, it had economic power in EA and an outstanding IP in Star Wars!

    But along the way something went wrong, very wrong! What?

    Many things

    - game is linear like hell

    - game have so many instances that yo hardly play with someone else and groups are for 4 people only

    - because short level range for areas (1 planet have 4 areas, there is 1 lvl per area and 4 levels per planet) it's hard to find party for long time

    - no grup activities 

    - no activities outside fighting and quests 

    - no reason to go back to low lvl areas

    - no reason to play after lvl 50, only grind is there for yet another pair of pants

    - you reach max lvl in few weeks plaing 2-3 hours a day

    - no reason to trade since in few weeks you reach items you can't trade anyway

    -no reason to craft since after lvl 50 everything is better than what you can do

    - retarded controls and gameplay

    - boring fights (awesome button)

    - stupid developers (op healing for a long time, nerfing operatives to just some lame mele class)

    - boring quests (go and kill 10,20,40 mobs)

    - boring class story

    - avarage graphic

    - poor performance ( i play tera, planetside 2 and few other games on full with 60fps while TOR was around 40 nad he looked ugly as hell)

    - empty world (no reason to explore it unless there is a quest where you going)

    - wow clone (everything is like in this old school mmo but worst) unfit for 2011

    - worst f2p system ever (even slots are blocked, seriously ? :|)

    - i have no desire to play this game even after it went free and it would be last game I pick up since there is Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2 with no monthly fee.

     

    Whole game is just bad. They were afraid of risk of doing some innovative and they failed.

     

  • AddersAdders LauncestonPosts: 28Member

    DariusZP, you got it right.

    I beta tested SWTOR and decided never to pay anything for it.

    My brief summary of why it sucked goes:

    • Outdated and very disappointing graphics
    • A combat system that was as dull and anti-immersion as they come
    • Otherwise same-old, same-old, just with 'Star Wars' and 'Bioware' tacked on
    Mind you, various other MMOs which have been released since have also been very disappointing for simple reasons, mainly due to Korean-style grindfest questing and/or tab-select-and-push-the-same-button-combat.
     
    I've been playing computer games since 1979 and sometimes it feels as if developers have stopped trying.
     
    But, nothing against Koreans, of course (except for the government in the North), you guys make kimchi and dol sot bi bim bap!
  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    Very boring to level up with the second character, same planets, same stuff to do  - only different cutscenes.

    No space sim

    Graphics look dated, also a lot of copy paste

    :-/

    Overall an uninspired game.

     

    SWG was much more innovation and creativity imho, also Star Wars feeling, hope Disney gives a licence

    to SOE to make SWG 2

     

     

     

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


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  • thamighty213thamighty213 NewcastlePosts: 1,630Member

    Chose other.

     

    It was overhyped,  people went into it expecting the greatest PVP/RAID/PVE insert own personal preference here,  a solution to world famine and the ability to fart lightning bolts upon purchase.

     

    When you go back to it with lessened expectations its a good solid game.

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Other:
    Lack of open world pvp. I like random pvp during leveling and later. It brakes leveling monotony and add unpredictability to the painfuly predictable worlds of current mmos.
    Lack of chat bubbless. Star Wars without main roleplaying feature? Puhlease
    Poor engine performacne. The game was unplayable with many people on screen, ie on Ilum.
  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member

    People burned out on the end game, when the player base declined the suits paniced and pulled the rug out from under the game. If the suits hadn't paniced and started firing everyone people would have held out hope for future content.

    Along with the lack of end game, the pvp wasn't enough to fall back on. The open world pvp zones could have been awesome if we were given a reason to do them. Plus, the expertise system was garbage.

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    SWTOR flopped?  I guess I need to tell the 1000+ people on my server at 2am to quit playing then. 

     

    1000+ people after two rounds of server merges from ~250 servers to 24 ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
    The Return of ELITE !
    image

  • AhnogAhnog Keller, TXPosts: 231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IAmMMO
    it flopped because a MMO should be community driven not a single player game trying to be a MMO for the sake of it.  TOR should have been a single player game with  co op online play for up to 4 to 5 players and not tagged as a MMO. The story in MMO's should be created ny the players using the world you give them. No MMO focus should be on a single player type stories where the player if the hero to save all.  I've got more stories to tell than TOR in just 3 months of player Planetside 2 closed beta.

    The stories are now an offical part of Star Wars history. The stories reflect what "happened" and each are a reliving of that experience. They all, therefore, had to lead to the same end in order to keep the lore in line with the "history" of the Star Wars universe.

    Ahnog

    Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.

  • AhnogAhnog Keller, TXPosts: 231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adders

    DariusZP, you got it right.

    I beta tested SWTOR and decided never to pay anything for it.

    My brief summary of why it sucked goes:

    • Outdated and very disappointing graphics
    • A combat system that was as dull and anti-immersion as they come
    • Otherwise same-old, same-old, just with 'Star Wars' and 'Bioware' tacked on
    Mind you, various other MMOs which have been released since have also been very disappointing for simple reasons, mainly due to Korean-style grindfest questing and/or tab-select-and-push-the-same-button-combat.
     
    I've been playing computer games since 1979 and sometimes it feels as if developers have stopped trying.
     
    But, nothing against Koreans, of course (except for the government in the North), you guys make kimchi and dol sot bi bim bap!

    Walk a mile in a developer's shoes and you might not critisize them so.

    Ahnog

    Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member

    Its an overall bad game. Yah, it has parts that do not suck (leveling 1 character on each side is decent fun), but when you add and deduct everything it just comes out negative however you turn it.

    Endgame is especially bad, anti social speed runs through FPs/OPs to grind gear...i mean...even those who reached endgame couldnt stomach it. OTOH, leveling second character on same side is...omg boring. I mean, they managed it to be more painful than Korean grinder lol. Miniscule different content (class story) is so scarce and insignificant in sea of generic MMO yawn quests, that it begs some questions.

    They think free trial to 50 will change their luck...when they didnt actually change anything in their game. How could they possibly deduct that giving away best part of the game will make people suddenly sub for bad parts...

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