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Why no themepark and sandbox can ever succeed after WoW and EVE

24

Comments

  • Dim_sumDim_sum TaipeiPosts: 17Member

    First off, do you really mean 'succeed' or 'as succesful as' ?

     

    Either way, saying NO themepark can ever succeed is a bit fantastic.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    what are the main anti-eve complaints? "i'm a ship, the UI is confusing".

     

     

    I agree with everything you said and this point the most.   I seriously don't understand why the other developers haven't cashed in on this concept. 

     

    The biggest failure in this regard is CCP.   Why are they not trying to grab the other half of their pie?  Instead they are rolling the die on a couple of failed products.       

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    Well, Thinktank,

    Designing a UI that does 3-D stuff is ... not easy. Although in all honesty, EVE UI is fine. there's a ton of things, a ton of options, if BLizzard ran eve online they'd delete 80% of them and fix the UI.

     

    a simple example: The "Look at" command. Well it certainly doesnt do much. It lets me know what a Skiff 80 km from me is mining...it lets me rat from the point of view of a drone, or mine from the point of view of the asteroid. It's fun, I love it, it's useless.

     

    yes for a trial it can be messy to learn it at first look at eve. I know, I was there...but it's intuitive after you get an idea of it.

     

    first time on a titan...FC says "right-click an jump". I didn't know where the jump button is. but i knew it'll probably be in the command window that pops from the titan. Lo and behold there it was .

     

    edit: ever look at a drone fighting a frigate? there's serious combat maneuvers going on there.

     

    I'd like the UI to be better, or more customizable but I on't want them to start deleting things. the calculator and the notepad...yes they help. so does the browser. and Fapswarm. Playing the game for more than a month or two, you learn the UI. it's not a problem anymore. while the most obvious obstacle, its one that naturally fades.

     

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    God i miss the older days when you actualy had to earn something and it felt so damn good. Now everything is thrown at you and the hardest thing in a mmo is waiting til level 20 to ride a mount ;) These new aged gamers ruined the mmo genre then whine about all the console style rpgs............. errr themeparks all suck and no content lol. Funny they havent figures out that player generated content owns everything. THey lost their creativity and it has hurt our community.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,972Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Onomas

    God i miss the older days when you actualy had to earn something and it felt so damn good. Now everything is thrown at you and the hardest thing in a mmo is waiting til level 20 to ride a mount ;) These new aged gamers ruined the mmo genre then whine about all the console style rpgs............. errr themeparks all suck and no content lol. Funny they havent figures out that player generated content owns everything. THey lost their creativity and it has hurt our community.

     

     LOL, that's in fact exactly how it feels, and that's not a bad thing actually.  image

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Onomas

    God i miss the older days when you actualy had to earn something and it felt so damn good. Now everything is thrown at you and the hardest thing in a mmo is waiting til level 20 to ride a mount ;) These new aged gamers ruined the mmo genre then whine about all the console style rpgs............. errr themeparks all suck and no content lol. Funny they havent figures out that player generated content owns everything. THey lost their creativity and it has hurt our community.

     

     LOL, that's in fact exactly how it feels, and that's not a bad thing actually.  image

     

    LOL! image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,940Member Uncommon

    Wow is 8 years old, Eve 9. I dont see players moving back to them forever, and both games no longer get in new players like they used to.

    So I dont agree with you, but I do think that games similar to them might be screwed. But we already seen sandboxes (UO, SWG) and themeparks (AC comes to mind) that differs from the model and once something new like that comes out Wow and Eve will loose the positions they have now.

    Nothing lasts forever, not even Wow.

    I do think that the time of a single MMO larger than the rest together is running short now. Wow is not exactly growing anymore. Both games had great runs though.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,940Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Onomas

    God i miss the older days when you actualy had to earn something and it felt so damn good. Now everything is thrown at you and the hardest thing in a mmo is waiting til level 20 to ride a mount ;) These new aged gamers ruined the mmo genre then whine about all the console style rpgs............. errr themeparks all suck and no content lol. Funny they havent figures out that player generated content owns everything. THey lost their creativity and it has hurt our community.

     

    I think there is a middleway between complete elitist games that only a few people have the time and skill to be good in and games so easy that a 7 year old kid can master and give away anything for free.

    It is true that the first gen MMOs were a full time work and I sadly dont have that time anymore (I dont think I ever had it but I am not willing to spend every second not sleeping or working on a MMO anymore) but things have gone way too far in the other direction instead.

    I do actually believe that most players are between those 2 extremes and it is time that that groups gets their shares of the MMOs as well. I guess that is one of the reasons for Eves popularity because it is one of the few games that hits that spot. 

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by muffins89

    "People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre."

    that should be most people.

    i tend to agree with your overall sentiment but,  a game doesnt need millions or even 1 million people to be successful. 

    I can't help but feel that most people do feel that an MMO needs millions in order to be worth anything, even the people crying for a sandbox MMO.

    I also get the feeling that most of them forgot about the origins of their favorite MMOs, that most of them didn't exactly start out as enormous mega giants.

    I agree but I also think we need more innovation in the genre.  Every since WoW, developers have been too keen on trying to replicate what they did without realizing why they did it in the first place.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Continue on with the current path and you'll retain more players. Why the hell should you settle for less? Those who don't like it can bitch in the forums. No one cares.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666

    Wow is 8 years old, Eve 9. I dont see players moving back to them forever, and both games no longer get in new players like they used to.

    Can you share links to the churn and retention numbers you are basing that on? It would be interesting to see how the two compare to other games.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    There is a large chunk of players who are MMO burnout without realise it, so they keep looking for that ONE game.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Continue on with the current path and you'll retain more players. Why the hell should you settle for less? Those who don't like it can bitch in the forums. No one cares.

    Please explain.

    Cause i see stagnation and drop in wow after the "streamlining" period, i see 50+million budget titles having 200k subs, and i also see eve ever so slowly growing and the red headed english stepchild of mmos still having around 1m subs.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    So I believe the question comes down to, Why is it that no other sandbox MMO has been more successful than Eve? Can any of you answer that?

     

    I think it's a bit alarmist to say that there can "never" be a sandbox MMO because of EVE. Whilst I think the OP makes a good point that any direct competitor has some big hills to climb with respect to the accumulated development that has been put into EVE, I could very easily envisage a successful sandbox MMO thriving in a world where EVE has ~500k subs. Even a successful Science-fiction based MMO, if it was one which was based on avatar gameplay could do well.

    EVE is bad at attracting new subscribers, but incredibly good at retaining them. One of the CCP guys mentioned in an interview this year that once a player has been in EVE for a year or so, they basically don't leave (although they often take breaks). It might be worth pondering why this is. I believe that, despite the many, many flaws in EVE, fundamentally it appeals to our strongest "monkey" drives: socialistion, status, competition, predator pressure, greed. Due to the very high degree of freedom that CCP allows the player base, the game feels incredibly "real".  I think EVE has survived and slowly grown to its current level because CCP have maintained that core element of player freedom. It's overly simplistic but not wholly unfair to say that EVE is a bad game which allows you to do great things. A sandbox run by a company with the balls to let the players interact so freely could easy do better if it also had better core gameplay mechanics.

    As a thought experiment, imagine what SWG would be like now if SoE had somehow been willing and able to tell LucasArts to shove their NGE demands and SWG had then had 8 years of continuous development and polish. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the sub level would be at least as high as EVE's is now. SWG was deeply flawed even before the NGE, but so was EVE. The lesson of EVE is that even games with significant flaws can survive and eventually thrive if the publishers have the courage to stay true to the core theme of the game, because your customers will forgive you a lot if you are the only one offering something they can't get anywhere else.

     

    As for WoW, I think the cracks are starting to show. It still has a pretty massive subscriber base, but this has been steadily declining for a long time now. And I don't agree that there haven't been any successful competitors in the last year or two either. Plenty of PvE-focused MMOs are doing quite nicely thank you very much. Just not 10 million subs nicely, because there's only room for 1 10 million sub game in MMO-land.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    I dont know about WoW and ThemeParks as I think the ThemePark concept is flawed but regarding Eve and sandbox, you are dead wrong.

    Eve is an niche sandbox in the sense that it is hardcore PvP, spaceship MMO with an old archaic UI. There is tons of room for another sandbox game to be released which is none of those things and as such will appeal to sandbox gamers who are not into hardcore PvP an spaceships.

    For example, I am a hardcore sandbox fan but I am not going anywhere near Eve because I am not into being a spaceship, spreadsheet UI and ultra hardcore PvP.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Could be.  All we have to do is convince corporations to voluntarily gut their profits.  Easy!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member

    Funny thing about EVE is that although people say 'look at the numbers subbing' but when any discussion about the game talks about accounts everyone seems to have multiple. Although EVE might have x subs, the actual 'player' numbers is a lot less. Plus the game is space combat and that is a turn off for a lot of people. Another sandbox, well made, will do very nicely and htere a few up and coming.

     

    Wow retains it's numbers simply because people don't want to leave a game they have played for many years to play....a copy. I honestly think that the themepark MMO is dead, or at least dying slowly, due to WOW simply because they cornered the market with a polished game and people are just not going to leave with so much invested. The success of WOW stagnated the industry so much over the last 8 years and only now are people starting to see the work begun a few years ago to come through.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Could be.  All we have to do is convince corporations to voluntarily gut their profits.  Easy!

    There is no evidence showing that old time MMOs with grind are not profitable. EQ had a sustained sub. base of 200k for years, same with AC, SWG and so on and Eve is highly profitable.

    Now they might not be as profitable as short-lived ThemeParks but that is like saying a football game is more profitable than a cricket game so there is no point in developing a cricket game. Not so, they are catering to two different audiences so they are not competing with each other so you can have a cricket game and a football game, just like you can have MMOs with grind like you can have easy-mode WoW type MMOs because they are not directly competing with each other.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    I disagree..

    Themeparks

    1. Companies need to stop trying to compete with wow anyway.. They are not going to get people to play their wow clones because well they already have wow to play..

    2. They need to make and design MMOs to fit in the the average number of players MMO has not the millinos that wow has. They need to look at games before and after wow and realise most stablilize aronud 500k and slowly drop over the years.. Create their games with that in mind and they will do fine.

    3. They need to make somthing different.

     

    Sandbox

     

    1. Well eve is nothing special, for me its a good idea but the combat is super boring and i have never been able to get into it because of that.

    2. There are a shit load of upcoming sandbox games that look really good. Hell even the Everquest next will be a sandbox.

    3. I have played Darkfall and Mortal Online longer than I have eve and I fine them a lot better and thats saying somthing, I know others that will never touch Eve as the dont like sci-fi games.

    4. Lots of upcoming sandbox games that are looknig really good, hell EQ:next is going to be a sandbox as well.

     

    So i dont play WOW or Eve as I dont really like either of them and there are many people out there that are the same.

    Sure companies cant compete with them if they keep trying to release clones in wows case.. as for eve not many have tried a sandbox space game but if someone does whos to say it wont be better than eve as long as they done try and clone it LOL.. at the end of the day people who like WoW or people who like Eve wont leave those games to go play a clone its as simple as that and companies need to start moving away from maknig clones.

     

     

     

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    So I believe the question comes down to, Why is it that no other sandbox MMO has been more successful than Eve? Can any of you answer that?

    Your questions is as stupid as always. Because until now no big company, no AAA sandbox have been made since SWG, and SWG was before EvE. EvE was just another indy company, but become successful and over time become AAA. Not to mention that in those early days, with not that many games playing online, SWG and UO were both more successful than EvE in comparsion to online playerbase at their time.

    So the question to your answer is quite simple, because no AAA sandbox MMO after EvE has been produced.

    And about the OP. If one thing is certain, than that there will be always something better. It is just a question of time. But about WoW you could be right to some point. Not that i think that there will no mmorpg with more than 10mil subs. because someday some mmorpg will have more subs. But much more, because the design pattern of those old themepark mmos like wow was may die out. Or may change so much that you cant compare it. There are no 2D Action games around like Turrican, the time for 2D Action games is over.. and that could be the case for mmorpg themeparks like WoW.

    And by that i dont mean themeparks in general, but they have to evolve.. this particular genre is beaten to death.

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ElderRat

     

     

     

    Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

     

     

    the makers of EVE are making World of Darkness and I think that, given all the experience they have gained WoD will be awesome, and not sci-fi. Granted many may not like the vampire idea, but factor in the politics among the clans of vampires and I think it will be a game that will be as good as EVE.  

     Also never is a very long time.

    i think WoD ll finished same as Star Gate Universe mmorpg,fail before work done,how long time CCP working on WoD?...oh, wait... they had huge number of employers & can work on  3 mmo's  in same time

     

    i waiting for WoD but I am not optimistic!

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Could be.  All we have to do is convince corporations to voluntarily gut their profits.  Easy!

    There is no evidence showing that old time MMOs with grind are not profitable. EQ had a sustained sub. base of 200k for years, same with AC, SWG and so on and Eve is highly profitable.

    We routinely ignore games that maintained 200k subs as irrelevant...when discussing anything except EQ.

    Yet 500k is a roaring success (before 2004) or an old timey classic (after).  Let's just say fan assessments of game's profitability is often skewed by what we played and liked.  There no denying that EQ enjoys a rosey pink glow far in excess of its actual enjoyability, simply by being one of the first.  In an era of minimal competition.

    But Ky didn't ask for promotion of old-style games.  He asked, instead, for modern games to cut their existing player bases in half, by shifting into reverse.

    No one, to date, has ever profited by rewinding the clock.  Not even DAoC and EQ, who have both experimented with 'turn back the clock' previously.  At best, it makes a handful of bitter vets smile and feel important; it doesn't save games or create profit monsters.

    It's certainly never going to create a game that replicates WoW's level of success; or even EQ's.  Not everyone wants mmos to regress.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    The last time CCP mentioned anything about WoD, they confirmed that they had 60 people working on it. This was well after the layoffs.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • GreenishBlueGreenishBlue Baltimore, MDPosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    So I believe the question comes down to, Why is it that no other sandbox MMO has been more successful than Eve? Can any of you answer that?

     

    Kids can't handle EVE. Many adults can't handle EVE. There is a market for EVE through  and players that like EVE, stick with EVE. Problem with other sandbox MMOs is that they are buggy as hell, devs are releasing MMOs in alpha state and then that's why they fail. EVE works as intended and there are players that like to play as a ship. Only one server. No cry babies!

     

    Themeparks are in better shape and there has been some improvements. Sandboxes are in bad shape. Please tell me when Citadel of Sorcery (8+ years in development) will be released, and if so, one hopes the devs don't pull off a Mortal Online.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Let's have a look at pre wow days

    Hardcore pve themepark - eq
    Casual pve themepark - coh
    Pvp orientated themepark - daoc
    Fantasy sandbox - uo
    Sci-fi sandbox - swg
    Hybrid - ac

    All coexisting quite nicely

    So there is room for other games
    Let's face it wow has bad pvp, so there's room for a themepark with strong pvp
    Gw2 has come along and done well taking a more casual approach than wow, there is also probably room for a new EQ type game taking a more hardcore approach.
    There is probably room for a sandbox that isn't sci-fi.
    Also eve is very hardcore, I think there is room for a more casual friendly sandbox with a more standard mmo UI.
    Finally we haven't had a proper hybrid since ac / swg so there is definetly room for a hybrid game.
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