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Originally posted by FrodoFragins Originally posted by DMKano That would make no sense - gw2 is targeted at casual players, raids have no place among the casual players, as it takes 100s of hours of dedicated gameplay with a large guild to progress through raid content.
This isn't 2008. Look at WOWs LFR for casual friendly raid design.
Also, ANET never said they wouldn't add raid content. They said it wasn't going to be on release but they would listen to the player base to find out what they want added most. So, LOL at the "betrayed" sentiment.
The way raids are now, everyone would just believe that raids are the only part of the game that matters, and the whole game would get trivialized. HOW IS THAT BENEFICIAL IN ANYWAY, except to appease the egos of the people who spend all of their time raiding?
Originally posted by Enigmatus Originally posted by FrodoFragins Originally posted by DMKano That would make no sense - gw2 is targeted at casual players, raids have no place among the casual players, as it takes 100s of hours of dedicated gameplay with a large guild to progress through raid content.
That depends on the rewards. Just like the rest of the game. Stop making assumptions about how ANET would implement raids.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins The way raids are now, everyone would just believe that raids are the only part of the game that matters, and the whole game would get trivialized. HOW IS THAT BENEFICIAL IN ANYWAY, except to appease the egos of the people who spend all of their time raiding?
I ain't thinking about how ANet will IMPLEMENT it, I'm thinking about how everyone else will react to it, and I think they will just assume that raiding is the only real part of the game and dump everything else off a cliff just because of old habits.
Well if they add raids in GW2 , it would be the hardest raids ever, as per no trinity.
I dont think they will as per that fact but if they do the hardcore raiders could get a blast out of this. Except if we get the usual wow raiders. They just complain on everything. ( too hard, too easy etc.etc. ).
But again i would not like that for 1 specific reason. What would be the point??? No gear progression in this game.
I dont want to spend weeks or months trying to figure out how to down a boss or multiple boss in a raid for nothing except a pat on the back or some gear that change my look.
They will need to include Trinity in this part of the game to have it work out well. It is not fun doing dungeons right now , so who in there right mind would include raids on top of this.
My opinion only !!!
To get people wanting to log on more often than a couple times a month, this game would need some kind of enema.
It's too single player oriented with meaningless PVP. Slap onto that how anti-social it is, even for an online single player game, and it's no wonder that ArenaNet keeps needing to downsize their sever capacity threshholds. Amazing how a full server has no overflow, eh?
I'm on a full server and there is like 2 map shouts per hour, and those Event NPC's are annoying as hell, because I'm practically the only one in a zone, they keep bugging me to help. Grr.. I start their event and then let them run off to die just so they will leave me alone for 15 minutes or so.
In this games current state, I can only last 15-30 minutes before I log out again, because, frankly, it's boring as hell.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcpRecognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Originally posted by FionGuild Wars 1 didn't have raids
Guild Wars 1 has Elite Missions. I remember a couple having a max of 12 players.
Did you really play GW1?
So long as they expanded their existing content, I don't see why they couldn't do it. There are a lot of people who like raids, and a lot of people who like GW2, and I expect there's a lot of people who fit into both categories. Now, if they added a big, end game raid and that's all that they added, and it wasn't really any different than the raids in WoW or SWToR, then I'd call that a fail. But I don't see them doing that. They have a primary, long term audience and I don't think it's those hard core raiders. So while they might add a raid in addition to other stuff, I don't think they'd add a raid instead of other stuff.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hmmm, I guess the only response I can think of to all the people saying "what's the point if there's no gear progression?" is "challenge+comraderie+achievement+fun."
Are we all really that chained to the WoW model that we need to have a power gear trophy? When a baseball team wins the world series, do they get gear that makes them better? No, they're already using the best gear money can buy. They DO get a nice ring that they can show to their friends.
To anyone who has ever said, in this thread or elsewhere, that it would downright terrible if GW2 adds raids, I can't help but think you're letting your perception of particular games that you may not like blind you a little. Raiding in GW2 doesn't have to--and indeed wouldn't--be a singular end game grind. If they suddenly added raiding to GW2 right this instance, it would become just another one of many gameplay modes that players can participate in at their leisure. How could that possibly be a bad thing for anyone? Unless it somehow infringes upon other aspects of the game you enjoy, it simply won't effect you.
That said, I'd have 1 major issue with raiding in GW2's current form: as far as I can see, it would be utter chaos. Thus far, my experience in GW2 is such that more people = more chaos = fewer tactics employed = one homogenous game of standing out of red circles, dodging, and hacking away. The sweet spot for GW2 PvE combat, in my opinion, is with 2-4 other players.
But I also felt similarly about games like WoW. I raided 40 mans in vanilla was a part of server firsts in 25 mans in BC. But the dungeons that take the cake for me in my 3 expansion WoW experience? Kara, timed ZA runs, and heroic 10 man Ulduar--all 10 mans. Execution had to be so much tighter, healing was so much more intense. This may be an apples to oranges comparison, but if anything, i think it might indicate that every MMO may have its own "sweet spot" for optimal number of players in combat--a sweet spot that is, of course, subject to each individual's preference to some extent.
Whatever they add, I'd suggest that one thing they seriously need to change/add is challenging content that yields specific unique rewards. Right now, aside from Arah explorables, there is absolutely nothing in the game that represents a signficant accomplishment worth showing off. There's very little for players to take pride in. Absent of a gear tredmill (which I am very happy to be without), the game needs to offer titles/skins/achievements (that are linkable and visible to others)/pets/cosmetic mounts/whatever that players can feel proud to have obtained. This is what generates motivation. Give us a goal.
Right now, every goal is basically "earn X gold so I can buy item Y."
Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.
What is it, 20% of players raid? I wonder what those other 8 million are doing in WoW, the "raid grinder"....
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.
Leveling and getting bored, then starting up an alt and getting bored...
Imbalanced Low Level PVP (Heirlooms are the enemy of balance at anything lower than 30)
Dorking about in Goldshire?
Originally posted by Enigmatus Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.
oh snap, what if players actually could compare themselves with other players? What if GW2 had interaction?
There is plenty of stuff to do in other games, largely because of interactivity. Hell even fishing in WoW was made fun.
You downplay roleplaying, but that is part of interactivity. GW2 sucks terribly when it comes to emotes. They have the least I've seen in a so-called "AAA" MMORPG. shameful. Do fans actually take pride in how GW2 is antisocial to everyone but themselves? You may not like roleplaying, but many others do.
Originally posted by ChrisReitz Originally posted by DMKano That would make no sense - gw2 is targeted at casual players, raids have no place among the casual players, as it takes 100s of hours of dedicated gameplay with a large guild to progress through raid content. large raiding guilds don't play gw2, casuals have no time to play raids. it be like opening a surf shop in Antarctica - pointless
If you say so. I guess alot of people are just "casual" mmorpg 'ers with most of there servers full. The game even had to quit saleing after its first week. You might as well pack up and go to antracitca cause you are in your own head if you actually beleive that...
Casual gamers male up the largest % of MMORPG gamers - this is self evident due to how well gams that support casual players sell - case in point GW2 sales as you noted.
My point was that adding raids to GW2 would be a waste of dev resources - there aren't large raiding guilds that play GW2 so why bother?
Originally posted by Fion Guild Wars 1 didn't have raids.
GW1 had elite missions for 12 players, which is more than some games raid sizes.
There was a recent interview with Blizzard devs that said that less than 3% of playerbase even gets to see any current raid content - less than 1% gets to complete a single raid boss.
So yeah 99% of WoW players do not raid on a regular basis - probably up to 20% try older raid content still the vast majority of WoW playerbase doesn't raid period.
As long as if they were non instanced I would be all for it.
But if it was instanced, hated before hate it even more now.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by evilastro Originally posted by Fion Guild Wars 1 didn't have raids.
Which played a lot less players compared to 8mans ... Simply for most ppl it wasnt worth to run it just for cosmetic rewards, waste of resources ... ANet decided to not repeat same mistake in gw2.
No problem with raiding, but honestly, for gw2 I just don't see it even being possible, at least raiding in the wow sense, without a tank/trinity.
Personally, I'm way looking forward to the progressive dungeon. I hope we see more of that.
What I'd really like to see is more puzzles in dungeons. Moving platforms. Switches. Time limits to kill mobs or a door won't open. Bombs to access secret passages. Dark rooms where environmental torches provide 10m of vision.
that would make my day.
If they keep the same loot system as they do now, a Diablo type randomized loot system where you get tokens for exotic gear, than I wouldn't mind seeing dungeons for 10+ people. However I believe that it would be best if they made it an option, like a difficulty option. Make those dungeons be able to be run with 5 people, but make a Hard version for 10 people, or something like that. That would probably draw hate though for making it too much like "World of Warcraft" though. Which I find pretty silly because there has been hard mode video games since the beginning of video games pretty much. But I can just see people work super hard to link it to WoW using the best most ignorant viewpoints in their arsenal.
Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by ShakyMo Go play a bloody raid grinder like wow or rift then. Why does every game need to get tainted with raids? It's almost as stupid as the people asking for pve servers with darkfall.
Blizzard never said that.
Originally posted by SirFubar Even if they added some raids to gw2 (won't ever happen IMO since they would've already done it at launch) most people will cry because there will be no point in doing them because the gear will be the same as the 5-man dungeons. Raids without the gear progression that come with it is pretty pointless. Also, if a 5 man dungeons can be as challenging and fun than a raid, why bother raiding?
Basically this ^.
Even with the 5 man dungeons GW2 already has, people are choosing to avoid the more challenging content in favor of the more farmable, easier content. It's just human nature. The only reason raids were ever as popular as they were, is because people were forced to do them. There was a huge barrier to entry. It was what all the cool elitists were doing.
I wouldn't be against larger group content in GW2 (and to a certain extent GW2 already has that), but I just don't see the game ever having raid content like what these people seem to be asking for. Suddenly adding a tiered gear grind would completely go 180 towards the game's core design principles. The people playing GW2 are doing so to get away from WoW, not to play more of the same.
While Raid content can be exciting, and a lot of fun, it has pretty blatant problems that many of us have been seeing for years.
One of the reasons I really enjoyed GW1, (and what GW2 seems to be trying to continue) is the focus on horizontal progression. Let people lvl up and evolve to a point, but make the endgame more about customization than about who has time to grind for the best loot.
From the 15th update, I'm willing to bet it's going to be more DEs, dungeon(s), gear skins, and possibly another dragon fight.