Originally posted by GeezerGamer Developers need to realize that what players want and what makes players want to play are not the same thing.
damn, thats actually a very nice quote you have on your hands there Gamer. and i agree, if i follow you correctly it seems to be about the deeper reasons for character progression (and why we play games) vs. say the in game mechanics for HOW you progress?
The early 2000s gave us the innovation and freedom of choice. What i continue to realize is that we all unified as gamers by being players and fans of our favorite titles.
There were only about 5 or so titles out at that time to choose from, period. we picked one, stuck with it, and helped it grow. We want that feeling back. all of us do. The MMO market is now like an American Super Market = So many choices that we just seem to go with what works and is cheapest.
We will not be unified as gamers by the games we play anymore (there is too much variance in opinion now)
I believe that we need to start communicating to game developers everywhere in a clear and unified way, "what WE would like to see created in MMO games"
I think that someone out there would read this and think of something, some kind of website, voting method, feature list, some puzzle peice tetris-like-voltron-forming community site where we could communicate the ideas we need to as a community of gamers.
I am in no way taking a shot at anyones personal status but my opinion is this: some current game developers, maybe a majority, are getting older. Some of these older developers might be losing touch with what the community really wants. that coupled with an MMO market that has dollar signs in everyones eyes, doesnt really spell "fun" anymore.
We need to band together an unify as a community of MMO players, to communicate to Developers "what we want to play", and more important to them "what we would PAY for"
please guys feel free to post whatever comes to mind in regards to anything ive said here, and PM me on the site if you have and ideas as well.
but my entire point is that it WOULD be less hard IMO to:
create a features list > Take polls and voting > and use math and other logical methods to begin to "break down" playstyles >to then gain insight into "what would be a great game to make (for that catagory of playstyle)
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
but my entire point is that it WOULD be less hard IMO to:
create a features list > Take polls and voting > and use math and other logical methods to begin to "break down" playstyles >to then gain insight into "what would be a great game to make (for that catagory of playstyle)
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Of course you can ask that, and ill answer the question.
the idea i am trying to propose would be more suited as a website, a full featured website, not a thread here where people will just shit all over my intentions.
i wanted to get feedback from you guys to see if you all thought it might be an idea worth investing in and eventually making.
We need to band together an unify as a community of MMO players, to communicate to Developers "what we want to play", and more important to them "what we would PAY for"
"Dear Developers, we as the gaming community are unified in all wanting different things. Please design a game for us, thanks."
I'm not trying to be an ass, but the fact is that most of us want different things, most of which are on opposite sides of the spectrum. For example, i want an MMO that has no PvP whatsoever. I'm guessing there are tons of people that don't want the same thing. We are not aligned and never will be.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
but my entire point is that it WOULD be less hard IMO to:
create a features list > Take polls and voting > and use math and other logical methods to begin to "break down" playstyles >to then gain insight into "what would be a great game to make (for that catagory of playstyle)
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Of course you can ask that, and ill answer the question.
the idea i am trying to propose would be more suited as a website, a full featured website, not a thread here where people will just shit all over my intentions.
i wanted to get feedback from you guys to see if you all thought it might be an idea worth investing in and eventually making.
Sure. How do you plan to pay for it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
but my entire point is that it WOULD be less hard IMO to:
create a features list > Take polls and voting > and use math and other logical methods to begin to "break down" playstyles >to then gain insight into "what would be a great game to make (for that catagory of playstyle)
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Of course you can ask that, and ill answer the question.
the idea i am trying to propose would be more suited as a website, a full featured website, not a thread here where people will just shit all over my intentions.
i wanted to get feedback from you guys to see if you all thought it might be an idea worth investing in and eventually making.
Why not here, an already established MMORPG forum? "I want to get feedback from you guys here if I should make a new MMORPG website where you guys here won't shit on my intentions." Admittedly, I giggled. I'm not shitting on anything though.
but my entire point is that it WOULD be less hard IMO to:
create a features list > Take polls and voting > and use math and other logical methods to begin to "break down" playstyles >to then gain insight into "what would be a great game to make (for that catagory of playstyle)
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Of course you can ask that, and ill answer the question.
the idea i am trying to propose would be more suited as a website, a full featured website, not a thread here where people will just shit all over my intentions.
i wanted to get feedback from you guys to see if you all thought it might be an idea worth investing in and eventually making.
Sure. How do you plan to pay for it?
can you elaborate on the part where you said "sure" because i dont think making a website is that far out of an expense to someone like myself that is employed...with a job.
I believe we communicate what we want extremely well.
I believe the problem lies in the belief that every single feature we want is the features every single other person wants and that it is feasible to put all of these ideas into one game where every single gamer will be happy forever.
An example of how we have communicated what we want and got it:
penalty light death.
It was asked for by the community and it was delivered in games such as WoW.
But this comes to the other point I made.
Some gamers hate light death penalties. And they have communicated that. Hence games such as Darkfall listened.
And so now is the crux of the problem:
There cannot be a single game that contains both of those features in an organic way.
Therefore, we are blessed and doomed at the same time.
If enough people communicate what they want, they will receive it. But at the same time they will receive other features they didn't want; because people communicated a wish for those features as well.
We will always have games which have a mix of features we want and we don't want.
The magic happens when the game has more of the features we personally have asked for and less of the features people with differing opinions asked for.
Let me make this clear.
We got solo content in games because we communicated that.
We got group content in games because we communicated that.
We got accessible raids because we asked for it.
We got inaccessible raids because we asked for it.
We got dynamic content because we asked for it.
We got almost every feature in one game or another we have ever asked for.
But if you want ONE game that has every feature you have asked for, you need to make it yourself. And realize, every feature you ever wanted is not the feature every other gamer wants - and you will not monopolize the industry. You want harsh death penalties? Someone won't. You want solo content? Someone won't. You want intricate crafting? Someone else won't. Want f2p or b2p? someone else will want a sub.
At the end of the day,
I think the lesson really should be; becareful what you ask for.
can you elaborate on the part where you said "sure" because i dont think making a website is that far out of an expense to someone like myself that is employed...with a job.
Okay, presumably no one is stopping you, given that it's so cheap and easy. Carry on?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is that a rethorical question? Meaning I completely missed the point?
To me there is no WE. And if there is no WE it's hard to answer expectations, or comminucate with one voice.
A lot of players are actually having fun.
No, sorry, that's just me really early in the morning.
But I do believe there is a WE, there is always a WE. You can't really justify saying there is no WE because to you there is no WE.
Football fans for example are a WE. They may not all like the same teams and be diametrically opposed (wait...wtf diametrically....) but they're a WE. They cheer for different teams but they all enjoy the sport.
Serouisly, morning, I'm not sure if that makes sense at all.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Ok so you make a website and then what? make a forum and ask what everyone wants? Back to square one.
First, register a domain name (not free). Obtain some storage space (generally not free, over the first gig anyway), arrange to pay rental. You have a place to park your index page!
Now, assuming you want bigger & more capable than a chessy blog site, hire a coder or two. Some graphic designers? UX/UI folks. Hardware guys, or will you be happy renting other people's servers?
Oh, yeah...you might want to have some content to put up, somewhere.
Advertising time, you want gamers to flock to your site, better buy some space in a gaming rag or two.
! getting hits !
Eeew....folks are commenting on that editorial you wrote. Oh my, they didn't like parts of it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerDevelopers need to realize that what players want and what makes players want to play are not the same thing.
damn, thats actually a very nice quote you have on your hands there Gamer. and i agree, if i follow you correctly it seems to be about the deeper reasons for character progression (and why we play games) vs. say the in game mechanics for HOW you progress?
A lot of people have said players don't know what they want. And while I think that's true, I think there is more to it. Developers really need to step back and look at what will motivate players.
Is that a rethorical question? Meaning I completely missed the point?
To me there is no WE. And if there is no WE it's hard to answer expectations, or comminucate with one voice.
A lot of players are actually having fun.
No, sorry, that's just me really early in the morning.
But I do believe there is a WE, there is always a WE. You can't really justify saying there is no WE because to you there is no WE.
Football fans for example are a WE. They may not all like the same teams and be diametrically opposed (wait...wtf diametrically....) but they're a WE. They cheer for different teams but they all enjoy the sport.
Serouisly, morning, I'm not sure if that makes sense at all.
I understand what you mean.
The MMORPG world is so devided in terms of type and players, we can't all have the same needs.
You'll have everyone behind your ideas if people make sacrifices and agree with things they don't really like. Why would they do that?
Football fans all have a common goal. The success of their favorite team for example. What do we want? A game that perfectly fits our personal needs. With emphasis on personal.
The people that played MMORPGs 10 years ago are now a minority and don't matter at all. A good number of them buy every new MMO title anyway, thus no need to design games for them.
Just because I played MMORPG's 10 years ago when I was 17 means I don't matter at all now? Ouch.
I'm a white male between the age of 40 and 50.
On Nov 6, 2012 - it was the first time in American history I didn't matter at all; and you 20 to 30s mattered a lot - so don't feel so bad.
And btw. Between EQ, AC, DAoC and UO, plus the other more obscure ones....that population totalled over 1/2 a million who played games for YEARS.
You tell me one mmo company that would call 1/2 a million potential customers irrelevant, when the best they do is 1/4 of that number for about 3 months.
I assure you, they are still looking at us old fogey's. We have money.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Ok so you make a website and then what? make a forum and ask what everyone wants? Back to square one.
i guess the idea was going to be a more detailed and engaging format, with polls, questionaires, and a few other media based ways to interact with the site and submit your opinions.
this ^ is the reason i started the thread to some how ask you guys for help on what it "could" be.
The people that played MMORPGs 10 years ago are now a minority and don't matter at all. A good number of them buy every new MMO title anyway, thus no need to design games for them.
Just because I played MMORPG's 10 years ago when I was 17 means I don't matter at all now? Ouch.
I'm a white male between the age of 40 and 50.
On Nov 6, 2012 - it was the first time in American history I didn't matter at all; and you 20 to 30s mattered a lot - so don't feel so bad.
And btw. Between EQ, AC, DAoC and UO, plus the other more obscure ones....that population totalled over 1/2 a million who played games for YEARS.
You tell me one mmo company that would call 1/2 a million potential customers irrelevant, when the best they do is 1/4 of that number for about 3 months.
I assure you, they are still looking at us old fogey's. We have money.
On Nov 6, 2012 - it was the first time in American history I didn't matter at all
[Ed. Meh, politics deleted]
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What we want, for the most part, is a better version of what we have, which we won't want at all when something really different and interesting comes along.
Comments
damn, thats actually a very nice quote you have on your hands there Gamer. and i agree, if i follow you correctly it seems to be about the deeper reasons for character progression (and why we play games) vs. say the in game mechanics for HOW you progress?
Play EVE-Online , problem solved.
Thinking this a bit more,pretty sure theres many of you who played paper and pen role playing games,how did we do it back then ?
threres no way to improve that ,sending a ticket to GM would be a lot worse than saying it to him or opening some thread in the web page.
Maybe it is time to go back to this genres roots,i say welcome to live events right now.
Let's internet
May I ask why you didn't make that thread, instead of...this...one?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
i tried multpile times,
just dont find clicking UI and watching somthing pew pew on auto attack my idea of immersing/ engaging combat in an MMO game... i tried
Of course you can ask that, and ill answer the question.
the idea i am trying to propose would be more suited as a website, a full featured website, not a thread here where people will just shit all over my intentions.
i wanted to get feedback from you guys to see if you all thought it might be an idea worth investing in and eventually making.
"Dear Developers, we as the gaming community are unified in all wanting different things. Please design a game for us, thanks."
I'm not trying to be an ass, but the fact is that most of us want different things, most of which are on opposite sides of the spectrum. For example, i want an MMO that has no PvP whatsoever. I'm guessing there are tons of people that don't want the same thing. We are not aligned and never will be.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Sure. How do you plan to pay for it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is that a rethorical question? Meaning I completely missed the point?
To me there is no WE. And if there is no WE it's hard to answer expectations, or comminucate with one voice.
A lot of players are actually having fun.
Why not here, an already established MMORPG forum? "I want to get feedback from you guys here if I should make a new MMORPG website where you guys here won't shit on my intentions." Admittedly, I giggled. I'm not shitting on anything though.
can you elaborate on the part where you said "sure" because i dont think making a website is that far out of an expense to someone like myself that is employed...with a job.
I believe we communicate what we want extremely well.
I believe the problem lies in the belief that every single feature we want is the features every single other person wants and that it is feasible to put all of these ideas into one game where every single gamer will be happy forever.
An example of how we have communicated what we want and got it:
penalty light death.
It was asked for by the community and it was delivered in games such as WoW.
But this comes to the other point I made.
Some gamers hate light death penalties. And they have communicated that. Hence games such as Darkfall listened.
And so now is the crux of the problem:
There cannot be a single game that contains both of those features in an organic way.
Therefore, we are blessed and doomed at the same time.
If enough people communicate what they want, they will receive it. But at the same time they will receive other features they didn't want; because people communicated a wish for those features as well.
We will always have games which have a mix of features we want and we don't want.
The magic happens when the game has more of the features we personally have asked for and less of the features people with differing opinions asked for.
Let me make this clear.
We got solo content in games because we communicated that.
We got group content in games because we communicated that.
We got accessible raids because we asked for it.
We got inaccessible raids because we asked for it.
We got dynamic content because we asked for it.
We got almost every feature in one game or another we have ever asked for.
But if you want ONE game that has every feature you have asked for, you need to make it yourself. And realize, every feature you ever wanted is not the feature every other gamer wants - and you will not monopolize the industry. You want harsh death penalties? Someone won't. You want solo content? Someone won't. You want intricate crafting? Someone else won't. Want f2p or b2p? someone else will want a sub.
At the end of the day,
I think the lesson really should be; becareful what you ask for.
Okay, presumably no one is stopping you, given that it's so cheap and easy. Carry on?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No, sorry, that's just me really early in the morning.
But I do believe there is a WE, there is always a WE. You can't really justify saying there is no WE because to you there is no WE.
Football fans for example are a WE. They may not all like the same teams and be diametrically opposed (wait...wtf diametrically....) but they're a WE. They cheer for different teams but they all enjoy the sport.
Serouisly, morning, I'm not sure if that makes sense at all.
First, register a domain name (not free). Obtain some storage space (generally not free, over the first gig anyway), arrange to pay rental. You have a place to park your index page!
Now, assuming you want bigger & more capable than a chessy blog site, hire a coder or two. Some graphic designers? UX/UI folks. Hardware guys, or will you be happy renting other people's servers?
Oh, yeah...you might want to have some content to put up, somewhere.
Advertising time, you want gamers to flock to your site, better buy some space in a gaming rag or two.
! getting hits !
Eeew....folks are commenting on that editorial you wrote. Oh my, they didn't like parts of it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A lot of people have said players don't know what they want. And while I think that's true, I think there is more to it. Developers really need to step back and look at what will motivate players.
I understand what you mean.
The MMORPG world is so devided in terms of type and players, we can't all have the same needs.
You'll have everyone behind your ideas if people make sacrifices and agree with things they don't really like. Why would they do that?
Football fans all have a common goal. The success of their favorite team for example. What do we want? A game that perfectly fits our personal needs. With emphasis on personal.
I'm a white male between the age of 40 and 50.
On Nov 6, 2012 - it was the first time in American history I didn't matter at all; and you 20 to 30s mattered a lot - so don't feel so bad.
And btw. Between EQ, AC, DAoC and UO, plus the other more obscure ones....that population totalled over 1/2 a million who played games for YEARS.
You tell me one mmo company that would call 1/2 a million potential customers irrelevant, when the best they do is 1/4 of that number for about 3 months.
I assure you, they are still looking at us old fogey's. We have money.
1. i think gamers need to realize every game isnt for them
2. dev's need to make games and not try to cater to everyone. make really awesome pvp, or really awesome pve, instead of mediocore both
3. investors realize that you may not make as much money from launch but a lot more money from longevity
4. many different rulsets to server.
just some things i think would help
i guess the idea was going to be a more detailed and engaging format, with polls, questionaires, and a few other media based ways to interact with the site and submit your opinions.
this ^ is the reason i started the thread to some how ask you guys for help on what it "could" be.
/waves. "Oh hi"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
i do have to let you guys know, this is NOT a thread about me requesting an MMO that fits my playstyle.
if your about to post on that side, please dont. please read the whole thread if need be.
What we want, for the most part, is a better version of what we have, which we won't want at all when something really different and interesting comes along.
The good ol' innovator's dilemma.