those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.
but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.
but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.
You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.
The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing. Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.
But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing. Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.
But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.
Originally posted by Yamota Thinking outside the box?
well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.
prove me wrong.
always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,
and skill system
same old same old.
You you mean 'improvement of something existing for the better' then what's typically considered themepark has more of that simply because there are, without exaggeration, hundreds of them. If you mean 'something new and different' then MMOs that focus on sandbox content have far more innovation. If nothing else, the goals and purpose is far more diverse among sandbox style MMOs. In almost every themepark MMO not only has theme (fantasy) remained mostly unchanged, but the gameplay itself rarely ever is anything other than killing things to get better gear.
ATITD, EVE, UO, Project Entropia, There, Second Life, Love, Shores of Hazeron, Wurm Online, Free Realms
I'm not seeing the same "same old, same old" that you are, I guess.
Yes, using what is most likely your definition of innovation, developers have innovated the crap out of the EQ/DikuMUD system for a decade. If anything "same old, same old" applies perfectly to themepark focused MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Yamota Thinking outside the box?
well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.
prove me wrong.
always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,
and skill system
same old same old.
well maybe Eve, since you a ship instead of a character.
EVE is very innovative in so many ways, and don't you know, I have a character that I can see, dress up and hang out in the Captain's quarters.
But back to innovation, love it or hate it, real time skill training is an EVE trademark, it's market systems are unrivaled, even running a damn personal space station takes a ton of skils and steps.
And it doesn't even have FFA PVP, at least not in the traditional sense. But there is certainly looting.
Edit: Forgot to stick the topic at hand. I'd say few theme parks have provided a PVP centric end game a la DAOC and some other early titles. They now pretty much stick to balanced arena / BG style combat rather than let us seige castles . (Aion being one notable exception)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.
but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.
but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.
You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.
But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content. But thats not a requirement for a Raid Dungeon.
A Raid Dungeon can work for non endgame use as well. In most trinity MMO, the Tank population is smaller than other role's population.
By packing more DPS per tank per group, the group size goes up, but the same number of tanks stay the same. The dungeon would be large scale, but same difficulty as a traditional party dungeon, since it would be designed that way. Not to be another Lich King/ BWL etc. But to be another sunken Temple, or deadmines, or (insert dungeon name from WoW, since I cant remember off top of my head their names)
The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing. Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.
But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.
Just having housing isn't player created content. As with most things it's how you use it. In early Eq2, player housing was just an instanced apartment. Oh you could change the color of the wood and decorate it but thats it. No player created content there.
Now you can build your own house by placing walls/blocks/bricks to make it how you want it. That is player created content. However since it is instanced it still doesn't have any impact on the world. So while more sandbox like, still not sandbox.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing. Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.
But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.
The view on housing differs by personal experience. If someone has only experienced things like Aion and LOTRO, yeah, that's themepark content. If they've never played UO, EVE, SWG, ATITD or even Puzzle Pirates they probably never experienced the scope of housing, which brings to light two things:
"Housing" is a horrible term for player owned structures because it is a very limited name.
Wanderer is kinda right that housing isn't specific to any one style. What the player can use it for is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.
but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.
but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.
You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.
But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content.
No, it was specifically added to stop people from farming the content. That then lead to the next band-aid on top of that one - dailies.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.
but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.
but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.
You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.
But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content. But thats not a requirement for a Raid Dungeon.
A Raid Dungeon can work for non endgame use as well. In most trinity MMO, the Tank population is smaller than other role's population.
By packing more DPS per tank per group, the group size goes up, but the same number of tanks stay the same. The dungeon would be large scale, but same difficulty as a traditional party dungeon, since it would be designed that way. Not to be another Lich King/ BWL etc. But to be another sunken Temple, or deadmines, or (insert dungeon name from WoW, since I cant remember off top of my head their names)
Without the "hard" or "chalenging" factor then why would you need a raid? Raids are large numbered groups working together to beat something a smaller group couldent do on there own. Hard content.
Even if there were no raid timers the groups goin into said raid would out lvl the content very VERY fast. So fast that the raid content in question wouldnt mater.
If a gorup of people stayed in this raid instance long enough to get all the sets of gear for the players involved, then they would outlvl the gear by miles not to mention the upcoming zones with quests.
The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing. Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.
But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.
Just having housing isn't player created content. As with most things it's how you use it. In early Eq2, player housing was just an instanced apartment. Oh you could change the color of the wood and decorate it but thats it. No player created content there.
Now you can build your own house by placing walls/blocks/bricks to make it how you want it. That is player created content. However since it is instanced it still doesn't have any impact on the world. So while more sandbox like, still not sandbox.
Im picking up what your putting down but at the same time,imo, still a sandbox feature at its heart. Now how the devs deside to add a feature like hosuing will tell how its used.
Will the devs let us create housing on a scale that would be indictive of a sandbox style or theampark style?
Will housing be open world or instanced?
Will the home have an inpacked on the world?
I still believe housing to be a sandbox featuer. hows its used on the other can change its function.
Or is L2 now a sandbox? Anyways, what was the question?
Flame on!
i never played l2 so i wouldent know what they would consider raid sise groups and how they work. were raids in l2 open world or instanced? Open world raid bosses i could see for lower lvls but a full blown instance with 10- 15 bosses that have 7 day lockout timers? i just cant see it.
Depending on boss, 16-infinity people, no fixed raid size.
But yes, there were no instances, only later for 80+ people (outside leveling event ones), and i agree, instanced raids are hard for new people and lowbies, certainly harder than creating a zerg, then getting lost in the dungeon before the boss for 2 hours and he isnt even spawned yet
So the first thing to be able to do something new would have to be to break the paradigm of weekly lockouts, fixed raid size and mandatory difficulty. Hard to do.
Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?
From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.
Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.
But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?
most difficulty comes from playing in synergy not from personal performance. the lager the raid the more potential obstacles.
at its core raiding is about teamwork, and that's what makes or breaks it.
I disagree. The Fight themselves are designed that way to require coordination on heavy hard levels. Group size isn't the major factor here, since 25 Lich king can be harder to beat than say 25 vanilla WoW Raid (forgot the troll raid name) was in vanilla WoW it's because the Raid is designed to be hard. Not the group size. It's just since we never see developers try to make party dungeons
large scale, while keeping the same difficulty, we tend to always see large scale Dungeons as the hardest PvE content,
people over time linked the two together.
"Endgame Raid Dungeons are always the hardest form of PvE in a THEMEPARK MMO. Therefore, all Raids always are the hardest form of PvE in any THEMEPARK MMO."
In the medical field we call this mindset "ILLUSORY CORRELATION" were Humans draw conclusions about how the world works because they are able to see how one thing causes another. Which can be misleading sometimes like now.
we assume all Raids have to have lock out timers, and have to be hardest form of PvE gameplay, because it's always used that way in the past.
Another way to look at Illusory Correlation is like this:
"Most ice cream is eaten during the summer. Most drownings occur in the summer. Therefore, ice cream causes drowning."
I didn't read all the post.. but I would love to see a MMO that focuses completely on character achievements and biography then gear and physical rewards.. An example of this would be a military career.. I designed a MMO on spreadsheets that as your character progresses (levels) he/she earns medal, ribbons and awards.. These things are just prestigious show pieces, and during this career path you earn a reputation that unlocks other things in the game that are NOT "gear" or loot type rewards.. The goal of such a game is to build a unique character biography..
PS.. I would like to see a manditory character "retirement"... This means that each character you create you have a limited game time clock.. Once you meet that ceiling, your character is forced into manditory retirement.. This means you can still walk around enjoying your character in public zones (such as main cities) and can even enjoy other aspects of the game like crafting, trading and whatnot.. BUT.. your character will be disabled from combat.. This means your rank and character progression stops..
Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?
From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.
To be fare Vanguard has it's first major dungeon at level 13, yes it's a group dungeon but it's on par with any raid dungeon you get in current MMOs. In fact many of Vanguard dungeons would be considered raid dungeons in any one of the current MMOs.
Dungeons like Khegor's End which is a vast dungeon that takes you from level 13 to level 18 over a period of days, it's vast. Or you could look at dungeons like Ksavari Gulch which takes you from level 15-20 over a period of days. These are just two of the dungeons that are low level but are bigger than most end game raid dungeons you get in MMOs today.
Both these dungeons dwarf any dungeon you would find in rift or GW2 and TSW and at least on par with WOW end dungeons.
I would actually welcome an MMO with a SLOW leveling pace.
and i would welcome low level raids. Kind of like entry level raids that get harder and tougher the deeper you get it.
You could even have higher players scale down in level (think GW2).
Would be a cool guild activity while leveling.
As would i but the low lvl raid dungeon in a traditional theampark, imo, cant be done. The leveling speed is just to high and you would out level the content to fast.
Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?
From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.
Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.
But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?
most difficulty comes from playing in synergy not from personal performance. the lager the raid the more potential obstacles.
at its core raiding is about teamwork, and that's what makes or breaks it.
I disagree. The Fight themselves are designed that way to require coordination on heavy hard levels. Group size isn't the major factor here, since 25 Lich king can be harder to beat than say 25 vanilla WoW Raid (forgot the troll raid name) was in vanilla WoW it's because the Raid is designed to be hard. Not the group size. It's just since we never see developers try to make party dungeons
large scale, while keeping the same difficulty, we tend to always see large scale Dungeons as the hardest PvE content,
people over time linked the two together.
"Endgame Raid Dungeons are always the hardest form of PvE in a THEMEPARK MMO. Therefore, all Raids always are the hardest form of PvE in any THEMEPARK MMO."
In the medical field we call this mindset "ILLUSORY CORRELATION" were Humans draw conclusions about how the world works because they are able to see how one thing causes another. Which can be misleading sometimes like now.
we assume all Raids have to have lock out timers, and have to be hardest form of PvE gameplay, because it's always used that way in the past.
Another way to look at Illusory Correlation is like this:
"Most ice cream is eaten during the summer. Most drownings occur in the summer. Therefore, ice cream causes drowning."
A themepark mmo set in a themepark. Where you build rollercoasters and stuff and let your friends have a ride on them. Err actually that sounds more sandbox, but...
Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.
But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?
First of all, I like the idea of learning to make stuff with different skins by studying gear, great idea X.
And yes, you can make the massive player content easier and the 5 man dungeons hard. GW2 did just that and a lot of people are complaining.
The onlyy difference in GW2 from your idea is that raids are often instanced and usually demands a fixed number of players.
Lower level raids were possible in old MMOs when leveling took long time and you actually had use of good gear by leveling. You could make a game like that, or better, you could make a game without levels at all with less gap between noobs and experienced players. Then you could have easier and harder raids.
It is clear that themeparks needs to change, the old EQ/Wow model have been doing badly the last few years (even if Rift have done Okay) but exactly how they will do it is still hard to say. I think levels need to go and that they need to put a lot more focus on customization, both on skills and stats.
I think raids need to improve as well, for one thing they should scale from 12 to 40 players depending on how many players you find to lessen downtime (and no, having 2 modes aint enough). And they also needs to put in a bit more random and smarter boss AI. Raiding is a feature that needs to improve a whole lot if we want it to be in future MMOs. The idea is indeed good and it can be fun but far too often is it just annoying right now, and waiting time for certain players.
That way you can take your time run instances, get gear you could use for longer then 1 hour.
Meaningfull crafting.
Making crafting something that is really useful, armor that can be as good if not better then what you can get from a instance.
Also make crafting less of a push a button to make something, make it intereactive, a mini game like where the better you do in that mini game, the better the item you craft is.
Dynamic Mobs
Have mobs in places that make sense not in some random place, like have bandits by a bandit camp have them do patrols etc.
have them try to Rob players and NPC's on the roads,
have wolves in a cave and not in a static random place by some tree's. etc etc
1 kill quests not 10+ kill quests
Quests that you only have to kill 1 mob to finish the quest, do away with the you must kill 10 or more to finish the quest.
and have bonuses in the quest for killing other mobs that happen to be around the quest mob, like if you have to kill a Dragon and there are baby dragons in the area also, if you kill 1 baby dragon is gives a small bonus, if you kill 3 you get a better bonus, etc.
I have way more ideas, but well these are just a few. ;-)
Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?
From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.
EQ2 (launched 8 years ago) had raid content all the way through. Launch with 50 levels, the lowest raid was around level 20 and there were raids all the way up to 50. Rift also has raids all the way through, so does GW2.
As to your question...something i find that Themepark MMOs don't do is break through the "why is Bob the Dragon still alive after I killed him?" problem. In theory it would be relatively simple to dynamically change the name of the dragon so that every time the dragon is killed, it's technically a "different" dragon, even though the mechanic is the same. This is one of the most difficult concepts for MMO immersion, yet most themeparks never bother to address it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Comments
They should try...
...not sucking ass...
...for once...
...thanks.
You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.
I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.
What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.
In all fainess the innovation your seeing is theampark related. Not sandbox related.
and ill all fainess theamparks have seen the most money it justify seeing inovation. Sandbox budgets are very very slim.
Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.
You you mean 'improvement of something existing for the better' then what's typically considered themepark has more of that simply because there are, without exaggeration, hundreds of them. If you mean 'something new and different' then MMOs that focus on sandbox content have far more innovation. If nothing else, the goals and purpose is far more diverse among sandbox style MMOs. In almost every themepark MMO not only has theme (fantasy) remained mostly unchanged, but the gameplay itself rarely ever is anything other than killing things to get better gear.
ATITD, EVE, UO, Project Entropia, There, Second Life, Love, Shores of Hazeron, Wurm Online, Free Realms
I'm not seeing the same "same old, same old" that you are, I guess.
Yes, using what is most likely your definition of innovation, developers have innovated the crap out of the EQ/DikuMUD system for a decade. If anything "same old, same old" applies perfectly to themepark focused MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EVE is very innovative in so many ways, and don't you know, I have a character that I can see, dress up and hang out in the Captain's quarters.
But back to innovation, love it or hate it, real time skill training is an EVE trademark, it's market systems are unrivaled, even running a damn personal space station takes a ton of skils and steps.
And it doesn't even have FFA PVP, at least not in the traditional sense. But there is certainly looting.
Edit: Forgot to stick the topic at hand. I'd say few theme parks have provided a PVP centric end game a la DAOC and some other early titles. They now pretty much stick to balanced arena / BG style combat rather than let us seige castles . (Aion being one notable exception)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content. But thats not a requirement for a Raid Dungeon.
A Raid Dungeon can work for non endgame use as well. In most trinity MMO, the Tank population is smaller than other role's population.
By packing more DPS per tank per group, the group size goes up, but the same number of tanks stay the same. The dungeon would be large scale, but same difficulty as a traditional party dungeon, since it would be designed that way. Not to be another Lich King/ BWL etc. But to be another sunken Temple, or deadmines, or (insert dungeon name from WoW, since I cant remember off top of my head their names)
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Just having housing isn't player created content. As with most things it's how you use it. In early Eq2, player housing was just an instanced apartment. Oh you could change the color of the wood and decorate it but thats it. No player created content there.
Now you can build your own house by placing walls/blocks/bricks to make it how you want it. That is player created content. However since it is instanced it still doesn't have any impact on the world. So while more sandbox like, still not sandbox.
The view on housing differs by personal experience. If someone has only experienced things like Aion and LOTRO, yeah, that's themepark content. If they've never played UO, EVE, SWG, ATITD or even Puzzle Pirates they probably never experienced the scope of housing, which brings to light two things:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, it was specifically added to stop people from farming the content. That then lead to the next band-aid on top of that one - dailies.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Without the "hard" or "chalenging" factor then why would you need a raid? Raids are large numbered groups working together to beat something a smaller group couldent do on there own. Hard content.
Even if there were no raid timers the groups goin into said raid would out lvl the content very VERY fast. So fast that the raid content in question wouldnt mater.
If a gorup of people stayed in this raid instance long enough to get all the sets of gear for the players involved, then they would outlvl the gear by miles not to mention the upcoming zones with quests.
Im picking up what your putting down but at the same time,imo, still a sandbox feature at its heart. Now how the devs deside to add a feature like hosuing will tell how its used.
Will the devs let us create housing on a scale that would be indictive of a sandbox style or theampark style?
Will housing be open world or instanced?
Will the home have an inpacked on the world?
I still believe housing to be a sandbox featuer. hows its used on the other can change its function.
Depending on boss, 16-infinity people, no fixed raid size.
But yes, there were no instances, only later for 80+ people (outside leveling event ones), and i agree, instanced raids are hard for new people and lowbies, certainly harder than creating a zerg, then getting lost in the dungeon before the boss for 2 hours and he isnt even spawned yet
So the first thing to be able to do something new would have to be to break the paradigm of weekly lockouts, fixed raid size and mandatory difficulty. Hard to do.
Flame on!
I disagree. The Fight themselves are designed that way to require coordination on heavy hard levels. Group size isn't the major factor here, since 25 Lich king can be harder to beat than say 25 vanilla WoW Raid (forgot the troll raid name) was in vanilla WoW it's because the Raid is designed to be hard. Not the group size. It's just since we never see developers try to make party dungeons
large scale, while keeping the same difficulty, we tend to always see large scale Dungeons as the hardest PvE content,
people over time linked the two together.
"Endgame Raid Dungeons are always the hardest form of PvE in a THEMEPARK MMO. Therefore, all Raids always are the hardest form of PvE in any THEMEPARK MMO."
In the medical field we call this mindset "ILLUSORY CORRELATION" were Humans draw conclusions about how the world works because they are able to see how one thing causes another. Which can be misleading sometimes like now.
we assume all Raids have to have lock out timers, and have to be hardest form of PvE gameplay, because it's always used that way in the past.
Another way to look at Illusory Correlation is like this:
"Most ice cream is eaten during the summer. Most drownings occur in the summer. Therefore, ice cream causes drowning."
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Shame on you
Flame on!
I would actually welcome an MMO with a SLOW leveling pace.
and i would welcome low level raids. Kind of like entry level raids that get harder and tougher the deeper you get it.
You could even have higher players scale down in level (think GW2).
Would be a cool guild activity while leveling.
I didn't read all the post.. but I would love to see a MMO that focuses completely on character achievements and biography then gear and physical rewards.. An example of this would be a military career.. I designed a MMO on spreadsheets that as your character progresses (levels) he/she earns medal, ribbons and awards.. These things are just prestigious show pieces, and during this career path you earn a reputation that unlocks other things in the game that are NOT "gear" or loot type rewards.. The goal of such a game is to build a unique character biography..
PS.. I would like to see a manditory character "retirement"... This means that each character you create you have a limited game time clock.. Once you meet that ceiling, your character is forced into manditory retirement.. This means you can still walk around enjoying your character in public zones (such as main cities) and can even enjoy other aspects of the game like crafting, trading and whatnot.. BUT.. your character will be disabled from combat.. This means your rank and character progression stops..
To be fare Vanguard has it's first major dungeon at level 13, yes it's a group dungeon but it's on par with any raid dungeon you get in current MMOs. In fact many of Vanguard dungeons would be considered raid dungeons in any one of the current MMOs.
Dungeons like Khegor's End which is a vast dungeon that takes you from level 13 to level 18 over a period of days, it's vast. Or you could look at dungeons like Ksavari Gulch which takes you from level 15-20 over a period of days. These are just two of the dungeons that are low level but are bigger than most end game raid dungeons you get in MMOs today.
Both these dungeons dwarf any dungeon you would find in rift or GW2 and TSW and at least on par with WOW end dungeons.
As would i but the low lvl raid dungeon in a traditional theampark, imo, cant be done. The leveling speed is just to high and you would out level the content to fast.
Can you prove otherwise?
First of all, I like the idea of learning to make stuff with different skins by studying gear, great idea X.
And yes, you can make the massive player content easier and the 5 man dungeons hard. GW2 did just that and a lot of people are complaining.
The onlyy difference in GW2 from your idea is that raids are often instanced and usually demands a fixed number of players.
Lower level raids were possible in old MMOs when leveling took long time and you actually had use of good gear by leveling. You could make a game like that, or better, you could make a game without levels at all with less gap between noobs and experienced players. Then you could have easier and harder raids.
It is clear that themeparks needs to change, the old EQ/Wow model have been doing badly the last few years (even if Rift have done Okay) but exactly how they will do it is still hard to say. I think levels need to go and that they need to put a lot more focus on customization, both on skills and stats.
I think raids need to improve as well, for one thing they should scale from 12 to 40 players depending on how many players you find to lessen downtime (and no, having 2 modes aint enough). And they also needs to put in a bit more random and smarter boss AI. Raiding is a feature that needs to improve a whole lot if we want it to be in future MMOs. The idea is indeed good and it can be fun but far too often is it just annoying right now, and waiting time for certain players.
4 things:
That way you can take your time run instances, get gear you could use for longer then 1 hour.
have them try to Rob players and NPC's on the roads,
have wolves in a cave and not in a static random place by some tree's. etc etc
and have bonuses in the quest for killing other mobs that happen to be around the quest mob, like if you have to kill a Dragon and there are baby dragons in the area also, if you kill 1 baby dragon is gives a small bonus, if you kill 3 you get a better bonus, etc.
I have way more ideas, but well these are just a few. ;-)
EQ2 (launched 8 years ago) had raid content all the way through. Launch with 50 levels, the lowest raid was around level 20 and there were raids all the way up to 50. Rift also has raids all the way through, so does GW2.
As to your question...something i find that Themepark MMOs don't do is break through the "why is Bob the Dragon still alive after I killed him?" problem. In theory it would be relatively simple to dynamically change the name of the dragon so that every time the dragon is killed, it's technically a "different" dragon, even though the mechanic is the same. This is one of the most difficult concepts for MMO immersion, yet most themeparks never bother to address it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
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