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[Review] Vanguard: Saga of Heroes: The F2P Review

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Comments

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

    I am a Vanguard F2P Player.

    I haven't hit any of the restrictions yet... because I haven't been playing solidly... so my views may change when I do but...

     

    Vanguard is great for me because it is an "old school MMO".  As an explorer - it's nice not to run into all the 'invisible walls' and 'impassible cliffs' that so many other (modern / themepark) MMOs tend to come with.

    The world of Telon is acually a world which is something missing from many of the newer MMOs.

    As for crafting and diplomacy - I have to agree with many of the other posters here.

    These are definate strengths of the game.  Coming from someone who is NOT A CRAFTER you could call that praise. 

    Even though crafting doesn't appeal to me - I know that many people do like it - and I often wonder how a "1 x stick + 1 x leather + [MAKE BOW] = Longbow of Agility!" crafting system can have any appeal to them?  Vanguard's system offers a depth that many crafters say they want.  It appears to reward hard work and those who actually care about what they are doing?

    The diplomacy system is also something unique.  I am not sure a better system couldn't be devised - but it beats the hell out of the "you may only accept missions from this NPC when your "reputation" is above 100..." sytem in use in many other MMOs.

    Advancing in diplomacy takes thought and planning.  And the game allows you to plan your encounters by warning you what sort of approach to take ("incite" vs "inspire" for example).

    All in all I think Vanguard still has a lot to offer.  In fact as far as MMOs go, a lot of the current Dev teams could do well to actually play it to see that simply cloning all things WoW is not the only possible approach.

    Oh, and yes, SOE don't understand gamers.  I am sure the F2P limits will annoy me when I get there.

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556

    I don't think I've ever seen a site that gives worse reviews for MMOs thant his one. Maybe Gamespot.

    Seriously, SWTOR gets a 9. Age of Conan gets a 9. This gets a 6.

    Seems this site bases its reviews off how much money they get from a given company.

  • Yavin_PrimeYavin_Prime Member Posts: 233
    I have to admit I hate the freemium method SOE and Turbine has picked up. I like PWI's true F2P the kind you see in Star Trek Online.
  • lotapartylotaparty Member Posts: 514

    Originally posted by LightHeretic

    I have to admit I hate the freemium method SOE and Turbine has picked up. I like PWI's true F2P the kind you see in Star Trek Online.

     

    yup that one is good 

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Originally posted by Ziyadah

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    You make a lot of assumptions in your reasoning, but the highlighted piece stands out the most.  Where do you come up with that?  The F2P market is more profitible than the P2P market by a long shot.  

    I have never seen any evidence that the F2P market is more profitable than the P2P market for MMORPGs on anything but a short term basis.  If you have it, I'd love to see it.  People love to spout the phrase I highlighted in your post, but no one ever seems to be able to back it up.  

     

    Me neither.

    I would love to see a credible long term *neutral* report on how F2P performs in these games in the West once the initial surge of the relaunch it brings passes.

    Seeing as all these companies hide the real numbers and gaming sites simply regurgitate their press releases though the only real signs we ever really get that all is not well or delivering the expected level of riches is when F2P games shut down.

    There seems to be a *lot* of 'fact' from the pro-cash shop crowd that is simply recieved wisdom that they heard a F2P dev, or someone with a clear vested interest in promoting the model, say once on the internet somewhere.

  • kevjardskevjards Member UncommonPosts: 1,452

    One of the main reasons i played vanguard was the community..its not often you come across a game with so many dedicated players who are willing to help..only other game i come across a community like this is lotro(laurelin server).crafting is also a blast in vanguard..its the best i have ever seen in any mmo.although i dont play this game anymore i would'nt hesitate to recommend this game to anyone..only thing is dont expect to complete anything quickly..which is what i like about it.you have to work to get what you want..content wise there is enough in this game to keep you goin for a few yrs.gfx are still great.character models suck but what the hell ,who cares?

    btw to any VG player reading this.how's the population these days?

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I really hate the "you can level to xx with no problem" argument.  It's not about the "can you".  It's about is it "fun and compelling" to do this.

    i found EQ2 leveling fun and compelling --- why else would i keep playing for 85 levels ?

     

    what makes DOV different is all quest gear is legendary at 86+,  and it kills the fun unless you are a subscriber

    Which is done intentionally because SoE have a terrible F2P model and want a cash grab. Sorry but the SoE F2P models are the absolute worst, and do not inspire anyone to give them any money, which is why their servers are so dead.

    Whats the best F2P model? I'm curious.

    The model is functional and serves its purpose.  It allows you to play a SUBBED game for free with obvious limitations.  Its not meant for you to do whatever you want and run through end game.  If you want to do that then sub and all your issues go away. 

    F2P is meant to allow you to play long enough in the game to determine if you want to sub.  All of these complaints thats its too restrictive makes it sound you like want something for nothing -- which isnt going to happen.

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  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Member CommonPosts: 682

    "Diplomacy and crafting are a chore"

    This is a joke, right?

    /facepalm

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Member CommonPosts: 682



    Originally posted by Ryowulf

    Sorry but what was said rings true for many new players trying the game out for the first time.

    Well, this is true...and...it provides an additional benefit of making it easy to identify who is part of the instant gratification crowd so they can be safely avoided.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

    With Vanguard: Saga of Heroes' recent transition from a subscription based title to a hybrid F2P-subscription revenue generator, interest has been renewed in the game. We've put the F2P version of Vanguard to the test to see how it fares. Read our review and then let us know what you think.

    The world of Telon is an absolutely beautiful creation, and there is no doubt about that. Every part of the games landscape is explorable. Literally, you can swim, run, climb and fly over every inch of the game world and is an aspect which Vanguard builds upon superbly. Upon release many people became familiar with the /flush command, it was a command which hopefully will never see the light of day again. The command itself was used to re-set the graphic engines whilst playing through the game in order to fix the many graphical problems throughout the game. Thankfully, 5 years on, there is no use for this and graphical bugs are absent. But the same high requirement game engine is still in place, which will become a pain with those who own lower end systems. 

    Read more of George Dimmock's Vanguard: Saga of Heroes: The F2P Review.

    image

    That was a pretty terrible review.  I actually consider it an opinion piece as opposed to a review which I view as an objective look at a game explaining its mechanics.  It was clearly obvious that this reviewer didnt fully understand, play, or enjoy the game.  Telling someone that something sucks in so many words (without explaining) is not a review.

    The game is from an era when MMOs were challenging and players engaged each other to get through the content.  Unfortunately that style of gameplay is no longer popular nor accepted by the new generation of MMO gamers (who I feel have to have everything handed to them).  It is now the era of instant gratification which coincidentally is easier to develop/produce than the older content so its a win win right?

    Vanguard is a game for the explorers who want to test thier gaming mettle against a persistent world that doesnt hold back from wanting to destroy you.  You can mindlessly go out there and 'grind' mobs (unless you over level them).  They will kill you and I mean at the early levels.  My idea of fun.  Its aesthetics are dated but functional.  I do agree the character models begin to slide into the uncanny valley but it is not enough to detract from the sheer amount of content and things to do in this game.

    Lets be honest.  Crafting today has been reduced to a relunctant side game that has no real pressence.  Clicking on materials and pressing a 'craft' execution button is not crafting.  While all crafting in MMOs is a mini-game, Vanguard's version required more skill and thought and gave the impression of actual avatar crafting.  Not only did you need your materials (ore, water, oil, etc) but you had to refine some of them first and then mix them together in the right order.  As you went through the progression of crafting the item certain events could occur that would reduce your quality.  It became a (complete) mini-game where you had to balance having enough resource to complete crafting while managing the highest quality.  With today's gamers I can easily see them getting fustrated with this model even if they quit before they finished.  They lack the patience and commitment to succeed.  But I digress...

    Questing was fun due to the fact that the (persistent) world with NO instancing was very realistic.  While it gave off a cartoon-like feeling it was more pratical impelmentation than say EQ1 or the high fantasy of EQ2.  It was unique.  The world alone turned people away because they didnt know what to do. 

    I'm still feeling on what character/class I want to play.  Currently have a Human Paladin, and dark elf rogue.  I might try a warrior as I like melee weapons.

     Guilds are prevalent. Just have to ask.  The community is more mature than most curent MMOs and very friendly.  I am constantly asking for shortcut and other commands and never had issues getting a response. 

    But nothing is perfect.  Things I dont like.  I dont like the map.  However it is implemented it is not intuitive and does not provide an easy way to see my objective or figure out how to get there.  That doesnt mean that functionality is missing, but more so that it requires more time than it should to learn.  With a map I expect to push one button and see a graphical layout of my area with point of interests I can either tag or get more information.  The engine is a mess and graphical faus paux still exist.  For the longest time I could hear rain but never see it.   This game punishes people who like the solo, it is one of the most group heavy MMOs that I have ever played.  With that said, while I'm not opposed to grouping it is fairly challenging as the community is light.  There are people in the game, but the world is literally so huge you will rarely see the people you talk in world chat. 

    In conclusion, Vanguard at its core is an excellent example of what a true MMORPG can be.  A balanced mix of questing, free exploration, raiding, and side systems (housing, crafting,diplomacy).  It was unfortunately a poor execution which could benefit from either a serious enhancement or sequel built from the same.   It serves as a reminder and more recently as a turning point milestone as the last of the great open world MMORPGs.

    I for one will not lose hope this style to return, even if its a small niche game.

    Yes I am a subscriber. I am SOE AllPass.  I play Vanguard now (as well as EQ1, DCUO, WOW, EQ2, GW2)   This isn't for everybody (especially you youngins) -- but for the older set its definitely an experience that is not lacking.

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  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    What a god awful review. I guess SoE forgot to pay MMORPG.com for 9s like SWTOR and all the other AAA MMOs?
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I really hate the "you can level to xx with no problem" argument.  It's not about the "can you".  It's about is it "fun and compelling" to do this.

    i found EQ2 leveling fun and compelling --- why else would i keep playing for 85 levels ?

    what makes DOV different is all quest gear is legendary at 86+,  and it kills the fun unless you are a subscriber

    Which is done intentionally because SoE have a terrible F2P model and want a cash grab. Sorry but the SoE F2P models are the absolute worst, and do not inspire anyone to give them any money, which is why their servers are so dead.

    Whats the best F2P model? I'm curious.

    The model is functional and serves its purpose.  It allows you to play a SUBBED game for free with obvious limitations.  Its not meant for you to do whatever you want and run through end game.  If you want to do that then sub and all your issues go away. 

    F2P is meant to allow you to play long enough in the game to determine if you want to sub.  All of these complaints thats its too restrictive makes it sound you like want something for nothing -- which isnt going to happen.

    No, F2P isn't meant to allow you to play long enough to sub.  F2P is now just a marketing term, but was originally understood to mean allowing you game access without a subscription, or a payment model that didn't involve a subscription.

    In one sense, VG is F2P.  But there are different models out there.  Both Perfect World and NCSoft, among others have F2P business models that offer game play that doesn't require a subscription.  If there are restrictions they can be unlocked via the cash shop, but those two companies mostly don't have restrictions, but sell buffs and boosts to accelerate progression.

    STO, GW2, Aion, Lineage II, and RaiderZ are examples of games with unrestrictive subscription free models.  The content and mechanics aren't locked behind a paywall.  Subscribers get stipends of game cash (STO), shorter cooldowns on content timers (Aion raids), and unrestricted access to content creation tools (STO foundry).  Just like P2P games, it's the subs that offer the P2W advantages not the cash shop.  In the case of GW2 and B2P everyone has the same access and there is no subscription (P2W) advantage.

    P2P games sell P2W advantages all the time.  Preorder Storm Legion (RIFT) or EQ2s new xpac and you get special advantages that no one else gets.  Buy the "Collector's Pack" and you get even more perks that you paid extra to acquire.

    The bottom line is this game isn't worth a subscription fee to most people, obviously.  Trying to shoehorn people into that is a mistake and raises the barrier to the game that F2P is supposed to lower.

    F2P is a model that has various implementation.  In the context of this thread where we are speaking about P2P MMOs that are now have a F2P option - its a way to test the game out to determine if you want to sub or not.

    PWI isn't the same type of game or model.  It was created to support a sub to begin with - it was created to support free players to leverage a cash shop.  Trying doing PWI end game without using the cash shop.  Most of the F2P games of this model that I've played follow this type of implementation.  Given that, I'd prefer the former.

    We cant speak for the developer, but I dont believe they are trying to shoehorn anybody.  I beleive they are granting an option for users to leverage to try the game out (for a lengthy period).  If I played a game to level 86 and then hit a restriction it would be my decision to sub to continue or to stop playing.  Getting mad that you are restricted for doing something when you pay absolutely nothing is silly.  Simply dont play the game.  SOE wont have any hurt feelings.

    Somebody has to pay to get the servers lit up. Even in a F2P model.

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  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556

    How anyone can be upset at Vanguards FTP model is beyond me.

     

    Every zone, dungeon, and quest is completely open to play. You know, the important part of the games. Even all the classes are open until 20, and 6 are open until level cap!

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    No, F2P isn't meant to allow you to play long enough to sub.  F2P is now just a marketing term, but was originally understood to mean allowing you game access without a subscription, or a payment model that didn't involve a subscription.

    In one sense, VG is F2P.  But there are different models out there.  Both Perfect World and NCSoft, among others have F2P business models that offer game play that doesn't require a subscription.  If there are restrictions they can be unlocked via the cash shop, but those two companies mostly don't have restrictions, but sell buffs and boosts to accelerate progression.

    STO, GW2, Aion, Lineage II, and RaiderZ are examples of games with unrestrictive subscription free models.  The content and mechanics aren't locked behind a paywall.  Subscribers get stipends of game cash (STO), shorter cooldowns on content timers (Aion raids), and unrestricted access to content creation tools (STO foundry).  Just like P2P games, it's the subs that offer the P2W advantages not the cash shop.  In the case of GW2 and B2P everyone has the same access and there is no subscription (P2W) advantage.

    P2P games sell P2W advantages all the time.  Preorder Storm Legion (RIFT) or EQ2s new xpac and you get special advantages that no one else gets.  Buy the "Collector's Pack" and you get even more perks that you paid extra to acquire.

    The bottom line is this game isn't worth a subscription fee to most people, obviously.  Trying to shoehorn people into that is a mistake and raises the barrier to the game that F2P is supposed to lower.

    F2P is a model that has various implementation.  In the context of this thread where we are speaking about P2P MMOs that are now have a F2P option - its a way to test the game out to determine if you want to sub or not.

    PWI isn't the same type of game or model.  It was created to support a sub to begin with - it was created to support free players to leverage a cash shop.  Trying doing PWI end game without using the cash shop.  Most of the F2P games of this model that I've played follow this type of implementation.  Given that, I'd prefer the former.

    We cant speak for the developer, but I dont believe they are trying to shoehorn anybody.  I beleive they are granting an option for users to leverage to try the game out (for a lengthy period).  If I played a game to level 86 and then hit a restriction it would be my decision to sub to continue or to stop playing.  Getting mad that you are restricted for doing something when you pay absolutely nothing is silly.  Simply dont play the game.  SOE wont have any hurt feelings.

    Somebody has to pay to get the servers lit up. Even in a F2P model.

    I'm not talking about Perfect/Forsaken World as games, but PWE (Perfect World Entertainment) as a publisher.

    In general SoE pushes the sub pretty hard.  They lock/restrict some systems squarely behind Gold status.  They push the Go Gold popup.  You can't get the same game play as a cash shop - non sub player that a subscriber can.  That is why the model is inferior in my opinion to the revenue models presented by games like STO, RaiderZ, Aion, Lineage II, and GW2.

    It's all subjective but when you hit the wall of subscribe or get a second hand experience, then that to me is shoehorning players into the subscription.  It's not about getting mad.  Why would you think my rejecting the business model would make me mad?  I already play EQ2 and am familiar with how things work at SoE.  Because their model is lame I'm not interested with investing in another game that does this.  If I weren't invested in EQ2 I wouldn't pick it up based on the revenue model.

    With successful games players can tell others to shove off.  Just remember that you are telling others to shove off if they don't like it and your game has a pathetic population.  You can't be exclusive and successful at the same time.  It will be interesting to watch how this game progresses over the next year, especially after EQN launches.  Try and bring more players in or SoE won't have any hurt feelings when they shut down your game either.  Just ask the Matrix and SWG fans and SWG was at least more popular than VG.  Maybe the hardcore VG community should be a little more open to new ideas and feedback.

    Sorry. Thought you meant PWI as a game.  

    I agree with everything you are saying about the SOE model, but that just me their F2P model is try before you buy.  Its kind of how they set it up, even when you look at the matrix and see what is offered for free, silver and gold.  (i.e. - if you want to do THIS you need to go gold).  Saying they should have a model like RaiderZ is valid, but just unrealistic.  Its just not their implemenation and i dont see them changing it.

    I've always been of the view if I play a F2P game (of any implementation) - if I like I sub or support the cash shop.  

    With SOE I have a SOE All Access Pass so Im gold across all their games.  I started with F2P and after playing I realized I wanted the full experience (understanding it would be a sub).  I'm just glad they offered an opportunity for me to really play the game.  I wish ALL publishers did this.  I would love to try all MMORPGs free of charge but restricted ... then decide if I want to sub.

    Case in point. FFXIV ARR.  In order for me to even try the game I have to buy the new title an a one month sub.  If I dont like it, Im stuck.  Thats the wrong model imo.

    If they shutdown the game, thats their perogative - I couldnt influence either way. Actually you have to accept that when you play ANY Online game because you dont have control of the media.  If they shut down EQ1, Ill just play something else. 

    The community has nothing to do with the F2P model a publisher uses.

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  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    For me, the awesomeness of the game outweighs its problems.I personally enjoy the crafting and diplomacy as well.
  • birkenbirken Member Posts: 122
    Vanguards is a great game one of the last good mmorpg out there the review was very poor.
  • RedRaptor22RedRaptor22 Member Posts: 44

    Ftp has since changed, now all races and classes can be played to cap by ftp players, and as before most rare items are locked to ftp gamers but are unlockable through cs potions,  along with many many other things, new dungeons, reworked dungeons.

    I for one like the new changes, and they are bringing lots of new players and lots of development dollars, the game is finally seeing some serious updates and fixxes for a change.

  • MahloMahlo Member UncommonPosts: 814
    To cite crafting as one of the cons is ridiculous. And because it's a chore! You mean it has depth to it? God forbid a game gives us something to do apart from kill mobs hours on end. Over your head, woooosh!
  • mysticalunamysticaluna Member UncommonPosts: 265

    Yeah, its a shame Vanguard can't get good reviews, because the game is really awesome and I'm glad its free/part of station access sub becuse it was one of the games that I had to give up after launch due to never working on my computer... 

    It symbolizes what an MMO should be, an immersive highly complicated and time consuming world, not an easily beaten theme park that never updates with any new content and expects people to quit sub and return after expansion for about 3 months until they quit again... 

    I love how the classes are different and not overly homogenized, and the in depth crafting/diplomacy is just so nice after all the other shallow mmos... 

    What I'd like to see however is free to play with every restriction sold in shop, and just new content - zones/ quests / fluff / early access to content being in the shop... the sub could be premium early access and all game updates for free, while the free players would be paying for every game update to new quests/zones... 

    Vanguard needs to add a lot more to that cash shop, they need to add a player studio like on EQ1/2, they need to add fluff outfits and fluff everything, especially house furniture people eat that stuff up... 

    Houses and Furniture would net them a lot of money, some people love that stuff... I'd love it if games could be buy to play and actually keep producing content so that people don't get bored and quit, then they'd be able to keep selling all of that content off for sub/cash shop buyers, and keep a population... Free to play is the best thing right now, as there's way more of a population than ever before... 

    I was sad when SWG was cancelled, even more heartbroken when SWToR turned out to be a theme park, and I seriously am worried about Vanguard, because it is the one game left that is like SWG... If only we could get another SWG made.... 

     

  • DeVoDeVoDeVoDeVo Member UncommonPosts: 106

    I gave this game another try and I’m very glad I did.  Just being able to explore and get lost in such a huge world is a satisfying experience.  The game runs just fine on my system under the balanced settings.  There is lag when changing zones or “chunks” but it’s not game breaking (to me).  Honestly, there’s nothing else like this game on the market for a sandbox (hybrid), PVE focused, high fantasy MMO.   Or some may prefer to call it a non instanced theme park.

     

     My only gripe is that you can’t experience the many dungeons unless you are part of a group or do it over level.  Oh, and being over level is no guarantee that you can beat the dungeon because the game can be quite challenging.   I fought my way to the end of one only to get owned by the boss.  Such is the life of a soloer in Vanguard.  If you choose that path you must accept the consequneces.

     

    I admit that I am a loner and the game really rewards grouping over solo, but so far I’ve discovered more than enough content to keep a soloist happy.  I usually prefer “stealth grouping” meaning if I see someone in the area struggling in a fight, I enjoy helping out with some healing, dps or buffing, then going on my way.  This game has been great for this type of play with my Druid.

     

    Despite my gripe, I wouldn’t want Vanguard to change its core concept because the established community is really nice and helpful overall.  Perhaps their need to overcome obstacles as a group is the reason.   Because I can’t solo the best content (which has the best gear), I’ll always keep my eye open if a similar game is developed that will truly let me play “my way”.  Until then, I am quite happy with this amazing game and maybe if I stumble across the right kind of crowd, I’ll join them for a good dungeon dive.

  • GaeluianGaeluian Member UncommonPosts: 114
    I really loved this game, but, absolutely hated the crafting. I think games should be fun, not frustrating. The crafting in Vanguard has too many components. This is the one area they really need to simplify.
  • BenediktBenedikt Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    Originally posted by Gaeluian
    I really loved this game, but, absolutely hated the crafting. I think games should be fun, not frustrating. The crafting in Vanguard has too many components. This is the one area they really need to simplify.

    well thats just matter of opinion. it is the same as if i did complain about pvp in game - simply because i am not a pvper (and therefore i usually dont enjoy pvp) and you are appearently not a crafter. as for myself, i think vanguard crafting process is the best i ever experienced in mmorpg.

  • bobm111bobm111 Member Posts: 153
    well i did take a look at vanguard with new changes and it sorta pissed me off.they took away a lot of starting areas for races and that was enough for me to say no. was fun back in its days of glory had a 50 cleric which i enjoyed.
  • xamenxamen Member UncommonPosts: 13
    I've been wanting to try VG again for quite some time but I have a lot less time these days and not sure I'd want to resub. So if i wanted to jump back in and play around with my lvl 55 DE necro in red gear what would would I end up having to pay?

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  • IkonicIkonic Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by xamen

    I've been wanting to try VG again for quite some time but I have a lot less time these days and not sure I'd want to resub. So if i wanted to jump back in and play around with my lvl 55 DE necro in red gear what would would I end up having to pay?

     

    Nothing, equipped gear is usable regardless of how you subscribe. If you remove it though, you wont be able to reequip.

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