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Quarterly raport from NCSoft

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  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    To those pretending Blade and Soul does better than GW2, you're comparing a sub based game during 3 months with a B2P game released since only one month. Apples and Oranges. But considering who posted such comparisons, the misinformation is not surprising.

    Sorry bro you can not have it both ways. As long as it suits the fans and make GW2 look more successful it is comapred regularly to games like Rift, Swtor, Tera etc.

    But it can not be compared to Blade and Soul? well because in this case numbers don't look impressive. Yeah allrighty then lol

    It those comparing absolute figures of two entirely different games - with largely different availability (3 months/1 month) and payment profile (sales & subs/pre-sales).

    Comparing the two and drawing any conclusions is entirely illogical at this point - the aggregate Q3/Q4 figures will be far more indicative.

    Now - the figures at that point may support your game bashing opinion, or it may more support those who love the game.

    But please don't obfuscate the issue - Korrigan was right to say it's an apples and oranges situation, and you crying 'bias' is actually a classic case of projection, not the insightful criticism you pass it off as.

    Wait for Q4 and then crow if you are correct. Even better - you should 'eat crow' if you are wrong - but whatever - at least call it when it can credibly be called and not before.

    It is not about whther he is wrong or right but how things are twisted by fans to suit their own agenda.

    If you read my post again i am not supporting the comparison but simply highlighting the hypocricy when GW2 has been compared to Rift, SWTOR, Tera and other themepark MMO in sales, retention and over all success.

    I was never in favor of such comparisons doesn't mean i can't point out the obvious double standards.

    If numbers were impressive regardless of when and where Blade and Soul was released, i doubt he would even bother to make a post.

    Seems to me that some fans who have been stating that GW2 is leading are now in denial. NCSoft have released the info and it does not lie, fact is it's from the horse mouth.

    Obssesion leads people to not see the glaring truth that GW2 is an okay game but no where near the titan they believe it to be. I say to these people, go play your game and stop  wishing that GW2 would be king because it's never going to happen.

    Interesting...very interesting.

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  • MothanosMothanos Member UncommonPosts: 1,910

    Not much you can make from that number tbh.
    Its all speculation and no proof on how its calculated.

    Arenanet cut's taken off when presenting NCsoft share ?
    Does this all copy's sold including Digital sales directly from Anet's website ?
    Does it include all the gems and ingame shop sales ?

    I cannot believe that, these numbers aint right.
    45 million isnt presenting the 100% 2/ 2.5 million box sales so how and what or wich share was taken into account when presenting this qaurter :P ?

    Love these haters inhere already saying TOLD YOU BTP FAILZZZ GW2 FAILZ LOLOLOLZ.

    2.5 mil x 60 = 150 mil
    Argh it doesnt make sence at all -_-

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,456

    The only important thing is that this only concerns one month of GW2 post release. No comparison is possible for now. Not to mention digital sales where blocked for like 2 weeks to ensure server stability. The 4th quarter numbers will be way more indicative and interesting, for now, this is just fodder for people who like to twist numbers, nothing more.

    Originally posted by RizelStar

    Interesting...very interesting.

    Yeah, they talk about "hypocrisy", tell us to "go play our game", and then they come daily post on the forum of a game they dislike/hate, often belittling or even insulting its players in the process...

    As you said, interesting.

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  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    I miss Lineage 1, NCSoft should have turned L1 into F2P in US before shutting down US serves. The only thing I can do now is waiting for Lineage Eternal(L1 sequel).
  • lifeordinarylifeordinary Member Posts: 646

    People talk about hypocricy because you guys seem to be oblivious to it. I am still playing GW2 but that doesn't mean i have to like the fanbase too. 

    GW2 gets a lot of flak not because it is a bad game but because of its defensive fans. So yeah 'interesting' indeed that somehow disliking the fan base automatically translates to hating 'GW2'. Sorry but all of you ain't that special. ;)

  • saurus123saurus123 Member UncommonPosts: 678
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Looks like Blade & Soul is doing better than GW2, considering that it's only available in Korea.

    and you know that korea have way more gamers playing mmos than Europe and US together? :P

     

    would like to see data when gw2 come out in korea

  • CalerxesCalerxes Member UncommonPosts: 1,641

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Uhm, how did they count?

    Do NC Soft count in 100% of GW2s earning, or are ANETs cut taken away first? Because with the number of known sales (about 2,5 million copies) and the earnings (42 million bucks) they only earned 10 bucks on each copy and that seems pretty low to me. Sure, the stores will get their share of any physical copy but that would be half of the $60 price, and many copies were sold directly from ANET. Add the gems that at least got in some money and the numbers seems odd to me.

    If ANET on the other hand take half of the cut it would make more sense, $20 per case is far more likely.

     

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Not much you can make from that number tbh.
    Its all speculation and no proof on how its calculated.

    Arenanet cut's taken off when presenting NCsoft share ?
    Does this all copy's sold including Digital sales directly from Anet's website ?
    Does it include all the gems and ingame shop sales ?

    I cannot believe that, these numbers aint right.
    45 million isnt presenting the 100% 2/ 2.5 million box sales so how and what or wich share was taken into account when presenting this qaurter :P ?

    Love these haters inhere already saying TOLD YOU BTP FAILZZZ GW2 FAILZ LOLOLOLZ.

    2.5 mil x 60 = 150 mil
    Argh it doesnt make sence at all -_-

     

    OK this is what it says in blue at the top of the report, I'll highlight the relevant part, this is gross sales numbers not profit but income and companies do not get $60 a sale unless its from their own digital store, GW2 was also available digitally from resellers so that has to be taken into account with also Cash Shop sales but the 2 million sales number could be right on these figures but that is highly dependent on how much money is made from the CS. The quarter 4 (Oct, Nov, Dec) report will be verey interesting to see if there was sustained sales and how well the cash shop is doing.

     

    Consolidated Sales Breakdown by Game (Excluding Royalties)
    NCSOFT Corp. & Subsidiaries
    (January 2012~ September 2012)

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  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,203
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Aion doesn't surprise me much though, people seem to dismiss it but its HUGE over in asia.

    They're the only type of gamers who love MASSIVE grind and shallow play.

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu Member Posts: 336
    If this numbers are true, I would say, this is not enough.

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    To those pretending Blade and Soul does better than GW2, you're comparing a sub based game during 3 months with a B2P game released since only one month. Apples and Oranges. But considering who posted such comparisons, the misinformation is not surprising.

    Massively.com made the comparison... Are accusing massively of misinformation too?

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  • ice-vortexice-vortex Member UncommonPosts: 960
    Originally posted by Mahavishnu
    If this numbers are true, I would say, this is not enough.

    2~ million sales for the first month isn't enough for what exactly?

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Member UncommonPosts: 2,047
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Results for next quarter - Q4 should not be lesser than Q3 ones.  I think at least some retailers might pay Ncsoft it 'cut' after certain amount of time or copies sold and this revenue may show in Q4.    Still those revenues does seem bit small for such huge 'loud' release.

    Further revenues though may rely on cash shop revenue stronger than many of GW2 fans might think, even counting that there will be paid expansions in future.

    I wonder what NCSoft's & Arena net revenue targets for GW2 were and are and if they are meet. Cause that will decide future pricing of expansions,  shape and size of cash shop and dev & support team.  

    I can't imagine that earnings wouldn't be lower next quarter UNLESS (I wanted to highlight that part) they are not reporting a large chunk of their box sales, and by large I mean really large (approaching 40%).  If this is truly based on all the sales they had through the end of September, then I would expect next quarter at between half and 60% of this quarters revenue and/or profit.  If they have included all of their boxes sold through september in this report and aren't carrying any forward, that would mean that the vast majority of their revenues and profits for the game in next quarters results will be from the cash shop.  Unfortunately, I don't think they will ever break it down like this in a public way that we can see.  We will instead see another generic chart like this one and we will be arguing over how many boxes were sold vs. how much in gems were sold.

  • CalerxesCalerxes Member UncommonPosts: 1,641
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Results for next quarter - Q4 should not be lesser than Q3 ones.  I think at least some retailers might pay Ncsoft it 'cut' after certain amount of time or copies sold and this revenue may show in Q4.    Still those revenues does seem bit small for such huge 'loud' release.

    Further revenues though may rely on cash shop revenue stronger than many of GW2 fans might think, even counting that there will be paid expansions in future.

    I wonder what NCSoft's & Arena net revenue targets for GW2 were and are and if they are meet. Cause that will decide future pricing of expansions,  shape and size of cash shop and dev & support team.  

    I can't imagine that earnings wouldn't be lower next quarter UNLESS (I wanted to highlight that part) they are not reporting a large chunk of their box sales, and by large I mean really large (approaching 40%).  If this is truly based on all the sales they had through the end of September, then I would expect next quarter at between half and 60% of this quarters revenue and/or profit.  If they have included all of their boxes sold through september in this report and aren't carrying any forward, that would mean that the vast majority of their revenues and profits for the game in next quarters results will be from the cash shop.  Unfortunately, I don't think they will ever break it down like this in a public way that we can see.  We will instead see another generic chart like this one and we will be arguing over how many boxes were sold vs. how much in gems were sold.

     

    Ncsoft are a public company they have to put out their full report, there will be some proper analysis in the coming months so I'd stay tuned.

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  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Results for next quarter - Q4 should not be lesser than Q3 ones.  I think at least some retailers might pay Ncsoft it 'cut' after certain amount of time or copies sold and this revenue may show in Q4.    Still those revenues does seem bit small for such huge 'loud' release.

    Further revenues though may rely on cash shop revenue stronger than many of GW2 fans might think, even counting that there will be paid expansions in future.

    I wonder what NCSoft's & Arena net revenue targets for GW2 were and are and if they are meet. Cause that will decide future pricing of expansions,  shape and size of cash shop and dev & support team.  

    I can't imagine that earnings wouldn't be lower next quarter UNLESS (I wanted to highlight that part) they are not reporting a large chunk of their box sales, and by large I mean really large (approaching 40%).  If this is truly based on all the sales they had through the end of September, then I would expect next quarter at between half and 60% of this quarters revenue and/or profit.  If they have included all of their boxes sold through september in this report and aren't carrying any forward, that would mean that the vast majority of their revenues and profits for the game in next quarters results will be from the cash shop.  Unfortunately, I don't think they will ever break it down like this in a public way that we can see.  We will instead see another generic chart like this one and we will be arguing over how many boxes were sold vs. how much in gems were sold.

    The entire report and be DL'd here. If your good with numbers and money definition you might be able to get what you need.

     

    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Looks like Blade & Soul is doing better than GW2, considering that it's only available in Korea.

     

    How is that?    GW2 sold more units...    It make 10 billion more KRW...

     

     

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,456
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Looks like Blade & Soul is doing better than GW2, considering that it's only available in Korea.

    How is that?    GW2 sold more units...    It make 10 billion more KRW...

    And GW2 did that in one single month of release without any subscriptions, while Blade and Soul was already launched during the whole three months and is sub based.

    Truth is, GW2 crushes Blade and Soul success wise. Big time.

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  • PrenhoPrenho Member Posts: 298
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Aion doesn't surprise me much though, people seem to dismiss it but its HUGE over in asia.

    They're the only type of gamers who love MASSIVE grind and shallow play.

    I must be Asian lol, as I enjoyed Aion a lot. Have nothing but fond memories of that game, it was awesome for me.

    Me too, I like the Asian style, because they develop a true and active comunity, staying in a game for years, while western players just like to reach level cap in 3 days solo-mode like a single player game, after finishing the campaign, go to multiplyer arenas, just like CoD and BF multiplayer, enjoy these instances for 1 or 2 months and so move to next game to do the same stuff.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by QSatu
    Originally posted by botrytis
    It is also on million Wons - looking at the report - that means in USD ~42 million US dollars in one quarter.

    I calculated 51kk $ but I might have made a mistake XP (if 1 KW is 0,0001$). Still I'm not an expert so it would be cool if someone more knowledgeable would check this report =p

     

    I used to do this all the time before I retied from public accounting.   At current conversion it's $42.06 Million USD.   

     

    For those who divide that by the retail price to get to 'real sales'...  There's a special place in hell for people who do that.    Developers sell most of their products at wholesale to the retail chain at about 30% of MSRP.   Of the 2.2 million-ish units sold, last numbers I had were that about 1.8 million were in the retail chain, ANet sold the rest from their GW2 site.

     

    So please, don't pontificate and try to reverse engineer sales.  Or call NCSoft liars because 2.2 million * $60 comes out to $132 million, therefore they must by lying about sales....

     

    It's incredibly annoying and just highlights your ignorance of all things business and financial...

     

     

     

     

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    ]By that time, expasion will come that require full box price.

    Really? And when is the expansion coming out? Because you obviously know.

     


    $42 million would mean less than 700,000 copies sold. And thats not including any gems sales.

    But also didnt see when the period ended. So, this might only account for a couple days.


    But from the press release and subsequent sales data we can figure that GW2 is definitely over 2.5 million in sales.


    With that in mind the 4th quarter will obviously be much bigger for Guild Wars 2. So I cant wait for the posts exclaiming "see! GW2 is growing! Haters and trolls proven wrong!"


    We wont get a hint at how GW2 will perform long term until 1st quarter 2013 and 2nd quarter 2013.

     

     

    I knew it.  I knew someone would do this.   I hadn't even gotten this far in the thread and I KNEW that someone would do this...

     

    You can't take wholesale sales and divide by retail price to compute units sold.   A classic mistake of people who simply don't know the basics of  business.

     

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Member Posts: 1,118
    Originally posted by Omnifish
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Dalano
    Originally posted by Alber_gamer
    Doesn't look very impressive for a super anticipated AAA mmo that just launched. Being B2P means that it has already returned most of its revenue to the company. I mean, it's less money than AION made on the first quarter this same year. I'm looking forward to see the next quarter, when no more boxes are being sold and they'll only make profit from those that still keep playing and use use the gemshop.

     

    Err, since it's a third quarter report and GW2 didn't release until the end of August, that's pretty much September only. Looks pretty good for one month to me. Q4 will really tell the tale though.

    Most sales occur at release and decline, especially true for a game hyped to the max Pre-release.

    Also I would hazzard a guess that most people prepurchsed for the full amount and that would be included in Q3.

    Could be wrong of course, but the bangwagon was at it's strongest in the summer months after the prepurchase became avaliable.  Generally most MMO's don't grow beyond the release date.

    Why would the pre-purchases be included in Q3?  It would make more sense that they be included in Q2 since that's when they actually offered the pre-purchase.

     

    As for the numbers, they look correct if you consider that NCSoft is only the publisher, not the developer.  This is how much gross profit NCSoft made from GW2, not how much it raked in overall or what Anet's cut of it was.

     

    Someone said earlier that publishers generally make $25-$30 per game sold.  So, if they made $25 then the sales figures would be somewhere around 1.7 million.  Considering that pre-purchases totaled around 1 million in Q2 and assuming that money was included in earnings for Q2 (I don't know and too lazy to look it up), that would make a total of around 2.7 million.  Keep in mind these are just estimates based on what we know and some assumptions.  But it sounds about right to me.

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  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Omnifish
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Dalano
    Originally posted by Alber_gamer
    Doesn't look very impressive for a super anticipated AAA mmo that just launched. Being B2P means that it has already returned most of its revenue to the company. I mean, it's less money than AION made on the first quarter this same year. I'm looking forward to see the next quarter, when no more boxes are being sold and they'll only make profit from those that still keep playing and use use the gemshop.

     

    Err, since it's a third quarter report and GW2 didn't release until the end of August, that's pretty much September only. Looks pretty good for one month to me. Q4 will really tell the tale though.

    Most sales occur at release and decline, especially true for a game hyped to the max Pre-release.

    Also I would hazzard a guess that most people prepurchsed for the full amount and that would be included in Q3.

    Could be wrong of course, but the bangwagon was at it's strongest in the summer months after the prepurchase became avaliable.  Generally most MMO's don't grow beyond the release date.

    Why would the pre-purchases be included in Q3?  It would make more sense that they be included in Q2 since that's when they actually offered the pre-purchase.

     

    As for the numbers, they look correct if you consider that NCSoft is only the publisher, not the developer.  This is how much gross profit NCSoft made from GW2, not how much it raked in overall or what Anet's cut of it was.

     

    Someone said earlier that publishers generally make $25-$30 per game sold.  So, if they made $25 then the sales figures would be somewhere around 1.7 million.  Considering that pre-purchases totaled around 1 million in Q2 and assuming that money was included in earnings for Q2 (I don't know and too lazy to look it up), that would make a total of around 2.7 million.  Keep in mind these are just estimates based on what we know and some assumptions.  But it sounds about right to me.

    You can get the link to the 2nd Quarter report and neither B&S NOR GW2 is listed in that report. All profits from both were reported for the 3rd quarter.


  • LarsaLarsa Member Posts: 990


    Originally posted by evolver1972

    Why would the pre-purchases be included in Q3?  It would make more sense that they be included in Q2 since that's when they actually offered the pre-purchase.


    Sorry, but I don't think you know what "makes sense" from an accounting point-of-view. Look-up the term "deferred revenue", it's a common accounting practice.


    Originally posted by evolver1972

    As for the numbers, they look correct if you consider that NCSoft is only the publisher, not the developer.  This is how much gross profit NCSoft made from GW2, not how much it raked in overall or what Anet's cut of it was. ...


    Sorry, but that is wrong again. NCSoft is both publisher and developer for GW2. AreneNet is 100% owned by NCSoft and included in the financial report. The report even tells you so.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    Originally posted by Mahavishnu If this numbers are true, I would say, this is not enough.
    2~ million sales for the first month isn't enough for what exactly?


    Not enough to convince people who don't like the game that it's a success. This is MMORPG.com. That's what every thread is about. People convinced {game here} is a failure, because they don't like it and it wasn't written for them.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ice-vortexice-vortex Member UncommonPosts: 960
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by QSatu
    Originally posted by botrytis
    It is also on million Wons - looking at the report - that means in USD ~42 million US dollars in one quarter.

    I calculated 51kk $ but I might have made a mistake XP (if 1 KW is 0,0001$). Still I'm not an expert so it would be cool if someone more knowledgeable would check this report =p

     

    I used to do this all the time before I retied from public accounting.   At current conversion it's $42.06 Million USD.   

     

    For those who divide that by the retail price to get to 'real sales'...  There's a special place in hell for people who do that.    Developers sell most of their products at wholesale to the retail chain at about 30% of MSRP.   Of the 2.2 million-ish units sold, last numbers I had were that about 1.8 million were in the retail chain, ANet sold the rest from their GW2 site.

     

    So please, don't pontificate and try to reverse engineer sales.  Or call NCSoft liars because 2.2 million * $60 comes out to $132 million, therefore they must by lying about sales....

     

    It's incredibly annoying and just highlights your ignorance of all things business and financial...

     

    People who do that annoy me to no end. It happens all the time in videogame sales threads and it just brings the average IQ of the entire thread down a notch.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    They only grossed a little over $40 million on GW2 through the end of September (basically the first month of release)?  That doesn't sound right.  That means they only average $20 per box, which includes all the digital sales which should be far closer to the retail price.

     

    AS far as GW2 goes, the improtant thing is to see how much they gross from the gem store every month.

     

    It sounds right.    They wholesale the vast majority of their games.    And the terms are not very favorable.  Take Kingdoms of Alumar.   When 38 Studios went bankrupt, details of the distribution agreement with EA came out in bankruptcy court.  EA took 70% of the revenue for what they sold.   Which isn't that bad, btw.    Which gets us reality  --- Amazon doesn't take a 'few percent.'   They take the bulk of it.    Best Buy takes the bulk of it.    Target takes the bulk of it.   Every person that touches that box takes a slice.  

     

    The developers are lucky to get 30%.  Many times they get less.  

     

    And then we have the delays in payment.  These retailers don't pay it out immediately, either.   The units come in a couple of weeks before the game is due to be released.  The retailer gets an invoice.  The invoice goes to accounts payable (AP) and they pay it out a couple of months later.    Like with Amazon which has, according to Forbes, a 54-day AP cycle.

     

    So, the units that they sold in early August they pay late September.   The units they sold in late August get paid in October.

     

    What's the cutoff?  September 30th...

     

    And it's this way with digital distribution.  You download the game September 1st, NCSoft gets its money sometime in November.

     

    Now, to make it even more annoying, it's not even close to that simple.  They're all accrual-based corporations so some of this they've actually accrued.  HOWEVER, not all of it because they get reporting delays from their retailers on digital distribution.  So, in fact, you can't tell more than just a ball-park...

     

    The truth is, accounting is hard.  That's why you have to (now) have a Master's Degree in Accounting (or equivalent) to even sit for the CPA exam.     That's why 98% of people who enter the public accounting profession leave within five years.     It's hard, complex work with more rules than you can shake a stick at...

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