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Do you think the phrases "Themepark" and "Sandbox" should be used less?
Yakkin
Member Posts: 919
Sandbox appears to have become a new buzzword, and there are people decrying it's supposed misuse in titles deemed to be anything BUT a sandbox.
Now as to whether they are valid in their anger, I can't really say, nor will I try to say anything about it, mostly because I'm always out of the loop, but this does bring me to my point.
Do you think it would be more beneficial to minimize the use of phrases such as "Themepark" and "Sandbox" and start being more specific about what EXACTLY is desired from an MMO?
Because Themepark and Sandbox, IMO, are so vague at this point, that being more specific would potentially make it easier for developers to to find niches in the MMO genre that they might be able to tap into, rather than creating a massive mish-mash of partially complete/underutilized or plain subpar mechanics in an attempt to grab everyone and their kitchen sink.
Comments
Not really what I was trying to get at. I mean I've always heard outcries for "more sandbox, more sandbox!" from people (although there probably is a good reason for that), but it sometimes feels like they are really vague at times, which kinda makes me wonder if devs are taking what they say at face value, and not really GETTING what the statement really means.
actually I believe this is what the OP was talking about trying to get away from.
the terms have been used as promotion and demotion.
Sandbox == good
Themepark == Bad.
thats how it been on this forum.
but a themepark can be good and a Sandbox can be bad. but the way people misuse the term,
its losing its meaning. Just like MMO at one point had meaning, but lost its meaning, once people started calling any online multiplayer game a MMO.
right now, people are calling any game they like, a Sandbox, as a synonym for being a good game.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
You summed up my intended point far better than I did in my entire OP.
Plenty of developers don't use the terms correctly and then 'marketing' sugar-coat every term to appeal to everyone because the finance dept. are under massive pressure to get a ton of subs very quickly, at launch when buzz and shiny are most effective. Don't expect mmorpg.com to stop throwing as much fuel on the confusion as possible.
Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_(video_games)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Park_(video_game)
is a start.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
but again you missed the OP's point.
If (using your example) you overlook any game called themepark.
Why call the MMO a themepark rather than Sandbox, even if its not a Sandbox?
The term has become a synonym for Good Game.
So calling a themepark MMO, a Sandbox, will draw in attention in a misleading way.
If I want a Sandbox MMO, I would like to get a Sandbox MMO, not a themepark MMO that a developer figured would be better to call a Sandbox to sell more boxes.
and vice verse.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
There are actually several different concepts that get lumped under "sandbox" and you have to research a little but abot the poster's history to understand what they mean by the word. To some extent, it becomes a catch-all for "not a themepark".
I use the word a fair bit and am actually part of the problem because although I have a very clear concept in my own head of what I mean when I say it, my simulation-instead-of-story world ideas are not interchangable with the more PvP-centric defintions that are floating around in many other peoples' heads.
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
yea right, because the random noob masses aint crying for a sandbox for ages now.
did you actually read the forums lately?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Why? They describe types of games. I personally happen to be interested in a sandpark style game over a themepark type game. If a new game comes out that is zoned, on rails, forces your char to be the main character of the storyline and doesn't allow for a robust choice of player activities, I want to know.
And they are not new. People have been arguing about sandbox v themepark on this site for years.
The terms are fine for describing content. Too often people use it to pigeon-hole a game - a practice so common on these forums that the concept of diverse content in an MMO has become completely foreign, resulting in ridiculous terms like 'sandpark' to describe what they've recently discovered MMOs have always been.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Indeed, the words are fine, no need to change them.
Less fine is that some people (both fans and games studios) recently started to use the term "sandbox" for a lot of completely unrelated things.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
No it isn't. I will agree with ou that sandbox as indeed become a buzzword and should probably be let go, but themeparks are still very easy to point out, specially the big budget AAA ones.
The thing that gets me.. I don't have a problem with themeparks.. In fact I love going to themeparks, as long as they have MORE rides then I can enjoy in a day.. That is the problem with today's "themepark" MMO's.. They are basically a very limited 1 ride game.. You don't have numerous options to mix things up.. Lets looks at the 2 recent games I played and quit.. Rift and SWTOR.. Both of these games have very limited starting points and have almost a 1 track path from beginning to end.. This is ok for the first character, but after that.. BORING.. When I look back at older games such as WoW, we were giving 6 starting cities with numerous options on leveling.. EQ was even better with over a dozen starting locations, and paths to take..
Replayabilty was wide open.. I loved being a half elf druid from Surefall Glades in EQ, and finding my way to socialize with others.. EQ was all about discovery.. Being a veteran EQ druid, I took pride in being an elite traveler in the game.. I had the means to be a taxi and escort, and the knowledge to guide anyone anywhere and track down virtually anything in the zone.. It was great to get tells from people I didn't even know, and was recommended to help or join others in their adventures.. Word of mouth and reputation was alive and well in EQ (early).. EQ allowed the skilled and mature player to thrive, while exposing the less then desireables to fend for themselves.. Sorry.. I got side tracked there..
Anyways.. Sandboxes are ok as long as you have the proper tools and rules to govern the cheaters.. BUT.. themeparks can be equally rewarding as long as you aren't tunneled into a single line..
Well that would definitely be more helpful, but then again I'm not sure this is possible considering everyone and their mother has their own definition as to what creates a sandbox. As it is, I get the feeling that developers are just taking the stuff that is easiest to implement of these ideas as an attempt to pacify people, while ironically drawing their ire even more, even though they only have the vague nature of the definition of sandbox to blame for...and other things.
No, first it was WOW clone, so I stopped using that in favor of Theme park and I feel the term accurately describes a particular design model that has become predominant in recent years.
Sandbox is a more nebulous term an there is no clear agreement on what it means amongst fans of the design, so it's harder to apply.
It certainly doesn't mean a MMO is "better", very few sandbox games are considered very highly these days, but it does reflect a desire for less linear content, a more open world design regardless of the specific tools that are provided in the game world.
I do agree they should not be used as insults, I've had great fun with many theme park style games, I'm just a bit burned out on them now and looking for some more variety.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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TP= Play in our world.
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Yup.
Nothing's going to stop parrots from parroting, of course.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Oh, no, that sounds like a sure bet for raking in the cash, don't it?
But don't forget, first we attach the 'sandbox' or 'themepark' label, then we microanalyze to destruction (regardless of brand).
In any case, anything the company/makers of the game say about it, is automagically a lie. That's just a given.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
But there's a huge (huge!) contingent of people that will make snap decisions about a new game based on the existance or lack of a single game feature.
Instances, for example. Housing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think that if you can no longer tell the difference between a themepark MMO and a sandbox MMO then you have argued yourself into a state of dementia within the hyperbole of senseless fan elitism and confused loves. I’d recommend time away from PC game boards and more sun if pressed. The terms are not any more over used than flat head or phillips head screw drivers when talking over a home project by people that understand what they are commenting upon. The good and bad bias is purely a fiction created by an individual poster’s psychological needs for affirmation. They can be good or bad purely on their own merits irregardless of play model type. It is what it is, no more, no less...
I can tell the difference. I'm just saying it might be more beneficial to find terms the describe our SPECIFIC wants for an MMO, rather than just parroting a catch-all phrase that could frankly be applied to several hundreds of interpretations of the word.