You know, in-game items didn't really become persistent (never break, never dropable, highly collectible, etc.) until themeparks began to "take off" in popularity and death penalties began to "wuss out". Death penalties are frequently directly related to how 'harsh' a system's intended to be.
It's usually a mistake to speak to about these systems in isolation. They're rarely un-grouped from the standard formats by designers.
If we can have Breakage back, sure we can have Droppage and Corpse Runs back too. What we can't really have is the Trophy Case Filled Lockers Goodie Collection Syndrome at the same time. We're back to mostly-disposable props.
Blizzards itemization-heavy design leans entirely on item persistence (and indirectly on light death penalties/no droppage).
As I recall a lot of those early sandboxes had some really tiny item storage capacity too (drive space wasn't 50 bucks per TB in the way-back, backpacks and lockers were pretty damn small).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
On that note, I hope EQ Next gets a real death penalty. Screw the carebears. They don't even know what they want which is evident by the poor cycles of games that have been coming out.
Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers than Everquest ever had.
And die, and have massive lay-offs, and then upset their small community by shutting down. That's why Everquest is still going strong where as all teh unsuccessful games are shutting down.
List the modern games that have shut down because they aren't 'hardcore' enough.
I never said a game has to be more hardcore. Though I do understand how you picked that out of what I wrote. I did say screw the carebears, but that was specifcally regarding the death penalty. If I were to re-write things, I would still make the carebear comment, but I would also state that the casual fanbase has too much say and they do not know what they want. They only THINK they know what they want. Which is why, back to my original point, all the games that have followed the cries of the casual fan base have not been holding up so well. Thats not to say that a game that goes in a different direction will automatically be a winner, but they certainly stand a much bigger chance than all the games STAYING THE EXACT SAME AS EACH OTHER!!
So with that said, I don't feel they (games) need to be hardcore, but for EQ Next, I hope they don't cater to the casual fans. They (casual players) have proven time and time again that they are not willing to stick with their own creations. They asked for it, got it, left it, asked for another and then rinse and repeated the cycle over and over. I play casually now a days, but all the new crop of games have no meaning or sense of achievment to me.
I could turn this around on you and nitpick, but I think you probably understand what I mean better now. Just to make it clear, I am not asking them to stop making your type of games, I am just asking that ONE high budget game be different. Just one! Let us have this!
I can't wait for this thread to be swarmed by people with insults to your like of thinking, OP.
And yup, I want major death penalties. The game has to offer the rush.
And i don't. I don't play games that i have to replay portions again and again (xp loss).
The solution? Have an option. Like hard core in D3.
In fact, you should play hard core in D3 .. that is the as big as a death penalty can get. I won't waste my time on it though.
Go play D3. Every thread you respond in you bring up D3 as the solution. How about bring up an MMO as the solution? Like oh say... Realm of the mad god? Screw D3 and its 4 player co-op.
I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine. What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.
If it has a grind for gear in raid or whatnot then I'd probably not want the above; UO had it right with the ease of access to player crafted items and the ability to lose everything on your person if you were dumbass at surviving out in the world.
No way in hell is that going to happen lol, you will get a FFA with an updated PVP system but you might as well forget about full body looting.
Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players.
Steepening-slope experience curves, ala 1995.
But--it doesn't work witha raiding game design (where the game is expected to "start at the cap").
Honestly, if only the 5-percenters are able to devote enough time to get to the raiding game, I'm not interested.
If they're climing an ever-steepening slope purely to have the biggest big number, but it's essentially measuring only their lack of a life...sure.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.
Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.
I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.
So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.
Ultima was my first MMOS. And for someone who has been playing games since 1996 andf longing for a MMO which is not casual freindly devoid of harsh death penalities, not like you didn't have your cup brimming with those and yet you go ahead buy GW2 and white knight for it on daily basis.
But God forbid that someone else doesn't want harsher death penalities in EQ next and you point fingers at him . Sorry bro but you are as guilty.
If you were really miffed by posts like these for last 6 years you wouldn't have spent 50 bucks on another ultra casual themepark MMO..but you did it anyways knowing very well that you are supporting the games which are devoid of harsher death penalities. So please quit with double standards already.
Originally posted by JimmyYO What people always seem to forget about EQ 1 is the lack of overall deaths compared to pretty much every other game out there. You can allow for a big penalty if you're not dying every 5 seconds like WoW. In Classic EQ 1 you could go a whole week without dying once if you're very careful and have good judgement.
So in short, yes I want xp penalties but i also want smart players to die ALOT less like, AKA no mobs with +300% movement speed or other nonsense that EQ1 never had.
you died every 5 seconds in wow because it was no big deal. if wow had harsh death penalties people would have to be more careful like they were in EQ
also, not sure about mobs having 300% run speed in wow but from what i seen mobs were generally slower than you in wow and you could get away much easier.
in EQ if you had no SOW or anything similar, you were pretty much dead if you didn't get a nice head start.
the mobs chased you forever too, unlike wow or the newer mmo's
Originally posted by Kenze I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine. What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by Kenze I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine. What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
well, i think they should limit to 1 character per server for a few reasons.. promotes interdependency when you cant have 1 of each crafting class all on the same server, which would in turn make for a healthier economy. Also if youre limited to 1 per server your actions and what you say mean something when you cant hide behind "unknown" alts
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Well in WoW i notice the majority of the popoulation dieing to get to the respawn faster people even found the best place to die in some zone respawn o nthe otherside of the map to make traveling faster.
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.
Basically a death penalty plays two roles:
1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.
2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.
Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.
We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.
The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.
Well said agree with everyting you just said here +1
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.
Basically a death penalty plays two roles:
1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.
2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.
Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.
We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.
The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.
Well said agree with everyting you just said here +1
Not being able to attain whatever reward you are persuing due to failure is usually more than enough punishment for most people. Labeling other differing views on death penalties as being purely sefish is certainly not going to win you much popularity outside of the hardcore masochist niche.
By the way, don't you already get harsh death penalties in Eve and Darkfall and its upcoming upgrade? Plus there is the truly hardcore perma death coming in Wizardry Online. Considering your idea of a fun mechanic doesn't appeal to most, I'd say you have adequate representation in the genre already.
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.
Basically a death penalty plays two roles:
1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.
2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.
Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.
We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.
The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.
Well said agree with everyting you just said here +1
Not being able to attain whatever reward you are persuing due to failure is usually more than enough punishment for most people. Labeling other differing views on death penalties as being purely sefish is certainly not going to win you much popularity outside of the hardcore masochist niche.
By the way, don't you already get harsh death penalties in Eve and Darkfall and its upcoming upgrade? Plus there is the truly hardcore perma death coming in Wizardry Online. Considering your idea of a fun mechanic doesn't appeal to most, I'd say you have adequate representation in the genre already.
Ill be playing both Darkfall UW and wizardy online, thing with darkfall it it wont be a well polished game like EQNext, and i think wizardy will be more dunguen crawlin g type but i am intrigued about giving it ago sound challenging, what i would like to see is a Full world like EQ1 again remade with uptodate features witha good death penalty. I find games without a good death penatly quite dull and boring without and real risks involved. The easy fix to the problem of people wanting and not wanting a good detah system is toi have both on different servers a hardcode and softcore servers.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.
Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.
I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.
So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.
Ultima was my first MMOS. And for someone who has been playing games since 1996 andf longing for a MMO which is not casual freindly devoid of harsh death penalities, not like you didn't have your cup brimming with those and yet you go ahead buy GW2 and white knight for it on daily basis.
But God forbid that someone else doesn't want harsher death penalities in EQ next and you point fingers at him . Sorry bro but you are as guilty.
If you were really miffed by posts like these for last 6 years you wouldn't have spent 50 bucks on another ultra casual themepark MMO..but you did it anyways knowing very well that you are supporting the games which are devoid of harsher death penalities. So please quit with double standards already.
The thing is with EQ next is that It's still in development and what do we get on these boards with this thread, people are allready asking for easymode, with EQnext we have an opportunity to get back to oldschool feeling again.
And one more question is it forbidden for the likes of me to play other MMOs that is not labled hardcore while waiting for a game that's hopefully going back to oldschool?
You keep bringing that shit up over and over and really I don't se the logic behind that, It's like I'm eating a Taco Bell 6 times a week and Mc Donalds 1 times a week and suddenly I'm a Mc Donald Fanboi
i see alot of talk about this penalty or that, but i really dont see many actually wanting some choice in the matter from within the game.
any game that touts "sandbox" should offer up alot more choice than your typical themepark.
there are lots of ways to introduce choice and options.
The choice is: you don't pick the server that has the harsher penaltys it's simple really.
You mean you hope.
I see very different things on the horizon, where every game system has depth and choice, and is more flexible for a broader range of players. Where systems dont have to be seperated by servers, and where coexistance is achievable of all play types through integration and not segregation.
read all the hype, it all points to big changes in store for eq fans and mmo fans as well. Why would they rely on old worn out skeleton rules when they have the chance the chance to put some meat on the bones of every system.
Originally posted by Kenze Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by Kenze I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine. What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
well, i think they should limit to 1 character per server for a few reasons.. promotes interdependency when you cant have 1 of each crafting class all on the same server, which would in turn make for a healthier economy. Also if youre limited to 1 per server your actions and what you say mean something when you cant hide behind "unknown" alts
like i said, if the leveling takes you over a year to get to max level people are not going to have alts with all the different crafting trades (assuming they make leveling crafting trades equally as hard).
i totally understand what you are saying but i just think that if it did take that long to get to max level, people couldn't hide behind alts unless they wanted to totally start over.
it essentially serves the same purpose as just having one character.
the reason i want more than one character as an option is i intend to play on a pvp server if its an option.
that was the only reason to really make alts in classic EQ, other than just to break up the monotony.
i just had too much time put into my main, re-rolling an alt like you could in wow just wasn't an option.
Originally posted by rungard i see alot of talk about this penalty or that, but i really dont see many actually wanting some choice in the matter from within the game.any game that touts "sandbox" should offer up alot more choice than your typical themepark.there are lots of ways to introduce choice and options.
there wont be a choice with a major game mechanic like death penalty, that would be kind of pointless anyways because if there is a choice people will always go with the lighter death penalty given the choice.
Comments
You know, in-game items didn't really become persistent (never break, never dropable, highly collectible, etc.) until themeparks began to "take off" in popularity and death penalties began to "wuss out". Death penalties are frequently directly related to how 'harsh' a system's intended to be.
It's usually a mistake to speak to about these systems in isolation. They're rarely un-grouped from the standard formats by designers.
If we can have Breakage back, sure we can have Droppage and Corpse Runs back too. What we can't really have is the Trophy Case Filled Lockers Goodie Collection Syndrome at the same time. We're back to mostly-disposable props.
Blizzards itemization-heavy design leans entirely on item persistence (and indirectly on light death penalties/no droppage).
As I recall a lot of those early sandboxes had some really tiny item storage capacity too (drive space wasn't 50 bucks per TB in the way-back, backpacks and lockers were pretty damn small).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I never said a game has to be more hardcore. Though I do understand how you picked that out of what I wrote. I did say screw the carebears, but that was specifcally regarding the death penalty. If I were to re-write things, I would still make the carebear comment, but I would also state that the casual fanbase has too much say and they do not know what they want. They only THINK they know what they want. Which is why, back to my original point, all the games that have followed the cries of the casual fan base have not been holding up so well. Thats not to say that a game that goes in a different direction will automatically be a winner, but they certainly stand a much bigger chance than all the games STAYING THE EXACT SAME AS EACH OTHER!!
So with that said, I don't feel they (games) need to be hardcore, but for EQ Next, I hope they don't cater to the casual fans. They (casual players) have proven time and time again that they are not willing to stick with their own creations. They asked for it, got it, left it, asked for another and then rinse and repeated the cycle over and over. I play casually now a days, but all the new crop of games have no meaning or sense of achievment to me.
I could turn this around on you and nitpick, but I think you probably understand what I mean better now. Just to make it clear, I am not asking them to stop making your type of games, I am just asking that ONE high budget game be different. Just one! Let us have this!
Go play D3. Every thread you respond in you bring up D3 as the solution. How about bring up an MMO as the solution? Like oh say... Realm of the mad god? Screw D3 and its 4 player co-op.
I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine.
What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
No way in hell is that going to happen lol, you will get a FFA with an updated PVP system but you might as well forget about full body looting.
This is the EQ world not darkfall lol.
SoE is releasing a game like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sO07W3mA4I
That's never gonna happen in EQ though like stated.
Steepening-slope experience curves, ala 1995.
But--it doesn't work witha raiding game design (where the game is expected to "start at the cap").
Honestly, if only the 5-percenters are able to devote enough time to get to the raiding game, I'm not interested.
If they're climing an ever-steepening slope purely to have the biggest big number, but it's essentially measuring only their lack of a life...sure.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ultima was my first MMOS. And for someone who has been playing games since 1996 andf longing for a MMO which is not casual freindly devoid of harsh death penalities, not like you didn't have your cup brimming with those and yet you go ahead buy GW2 and white knight for it on daily basis.
But God forbid that someone else doesn't want harsher death penalities in EQ next and you point fingers at him . Sorry bro but you are as guilty.
If you were really miffed by posts like these for last 6 years you wouldn't have spent 50 bucks on another ultra casual themepark MMO..but you did it anyways knowing very well that you are supporting the games which are devoid of harsher death penalities. So please quit with double standards already.
you died every 5 seconds in wow because it was no big deal. if wow had harsh death penalties people would have to be more careful like they were in EQ
also, not sure about mobs having 300% run speed in wow but from what i seen mobs were generally slower than you in wow and you could get away much easier.
in EQ if you had no SOW or anything similar, you were pretty much dead if you didn't get a nice head start.
the mobs chased you forever too, unlike wow or the newer mmo's
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
I would like a punishing enough death penalty to make people actually care about not dying..
death means nothing but a couple silvers in todays mmo's,its such a miniscule of a penalty that a lot of people shrug it off as 'whatever'
or even worse,they use dying as an actual advantage to get somewhere faster,which I find ridiculous myself.
so yes,I want a harsh death penalty.Does it have to be as harsh as the mmo's of old? no,but Id like it to still sting a bit.
I like a death penalty that makes me shout out obscenities when I die and perhaps inhibits my achieving an immediate goal.
I don't like a death penalty that discourages me from exploring dangerous territory or trying new adventurous things.
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
well, i think they should limit to 1 character per server for a few reasons..
promotes interdependency when you cant have 1 of each crafting class all on the same server, which would in turn make for a healthier economy. Also if youre limited to 1 per server your actions and what you say mean something when you cant hide behind "unknown" alts
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
I would like to see a return to corspe running and or some form of punishment for dying.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Well in WoW i notice the majority of the popoulation dieing to get to the respawn faster people even found the best place to die in some zone respawn o nthe otherside of the map to make traveling faster.
Well said agree with everyting you just said here +1
Not being able to attain whatever reward you are persuing due to failure is usually more than enough punishment for most people. Labeling other differing views on death penalties as being purely sefish is certainly not going to win you much popularity outside of the hardcore masochist niche.
By the way, don't you already get harsh death penalties in Eve and Darkfall and its upcoming upgrade? Plus there is the truly hardcore perma death coming in Wizardry Online. Considering your idea of a fun mechanic doesn't appeal to most, I'd say you have adequate representation in the genre already.
Ill be playing both Darkfall UW and wizardy online, thing with darkfall it it wont be a well polished game like EQNext, and i think wizardy will be more dunguen crawlin g type but i am intrigued about giving it ago sound challenging, what i would like to see is a Full world like EQ1 again remade with uptodate features witha good death penalty. I find games without a good death penatly quite dull and boring without and real risks involved. The easy fix to the problem of people wanting and not wanting a good detah system is toi have both on different servers a hardcode and softcore servers.
i see alot of talk about this penalty or that, but i really dont see many actually wanting some choice in the matter from within the game.
any game that touts "sandbox" should offer up alot more choice than your typical themepark.
there are lots of ways to introduce choice and options.
The choice is: you don't pick the server that has the harsher penaltys it's simple really.
The thing is with EQ next is that It's still in development and what do we get on these boards with this thread, people are allready asking for easymode, with EQnext we have an opportunity to get back to oldschool feeling again.
And one more question is it forbidden for the likes of me to play other MMOs that is not labled hardcore while waiting for a game that's hopefully going back to oldschool?
You keep bringing that shit up over and over and really I don't se the logic behind that, It's like I'm eating a Taco Bell 6 times a week and Mc Donalds 1 times a week and suddenly I'm a Mc Donald Fanboi
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
You mean you hope.
I see very different things on the horizon, where every game system has depth and choice, and is more flexible for a broader range of players. Where systems dont have to be seperated by servers, and where coexistance is achievable of all play types through integration and not segregation.
read all the hype, it all points to big changes in store for eq fans and mmo fans as well. Why would they rely on old worn out skeleton rules when they have the chance the chance to put some meat on the bones of every system.
change may be hard, but it is also inevitable.
if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.
your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.
IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.
they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.
i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.
well, i think they should limit to 1 character per server for a few reasons..
promotes interdependency when you cant have 1 of each crafting class all on the same server, which would in turn make for a healthier economy. Also if youre limited to 1 per server your actions and what you say mean something when you cant hide behind "unknown" alts
like i said, if the leveling takes you over a year to get to max level people are not going to have alts with all the different crafting trades (assuming they make leveling crafting trades equally as hard).
i totally understand what you are saying but i just think that if it did take that long to get to max level, people couldn't hide behind alts unless they wanted to totally start over.
it essentially serves the same purpose as just having one character.
the reason i want more than one character as an option is i intend to play on a pvp server if its an option.
that was the only reason to really make alts in classic EQ, other than just to break up the monotony.
i just had too much time put into my main, re-rolling an alt like you could in wow just wasn't an option.
there wont be a choice with a major game mechanic like death penalty, that would be kind of pointless anyways because if there is a choice people will always go with the lighter death penalty given the choice.