Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death. But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to.
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
You must of come late to Vanguard then because it did have FFA PvP but it was always a PVE game anyway. I've played since beta to this day.
As for EQ which has also 90% been about PVE a hardcore server will be enough for the old vets.
I was there at launch for VG, the game was way to buggy and shoppy besides my PC back then wasen't that good either so I returned 2 years later and they had closed the PVP server and merge that population with another server can't remebered the name.
I would lovew to play EQ again but I can't stand the graphics, I got a good PC now and I would like to have a MMO with all the features I like and good graphics but it seems you can't eat the cake and save it at the same time.
its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death. But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to.
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
You may not like to hear this but you are also supporting the super casual MMOS as much as the guy you are pointing fingers at.
Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by halflife25 Originally posted by Torgrim Originally posted by augustgrace Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death. But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to. Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp. I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
Originally posted by apocoluster its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by apocoluster its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.
I remember dieing in the Karana's and couldn't get my stuff back. I was exploring and entered an area above my level and went too deep. Man I felt bummed because earning stuff back then actually made you appreciate what you had. Even if it was just regular items with no stat buffs.
The next day I went to the orc highway with the little gear I could scrape up. Was in a group killing orcs when a stranger asked whats up with your gear. I told him I died and couldn't make it back to my corpse. He said hang on a sec. He went and found one of the wandering giants, killed it, and gave me the steel weapon that dropped and some armor he had.
I was in awe that someone, a perfect stranger, would do that in a game. Community was so much better when the games were actually challenging and we had to work with each other.
Bring back the death penalty. If you don't like it, there are other games more suited to your playstyle.
Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death. But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to.
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
You may not like to hear this but you are also supporting the super casual MMOS as much as the guy you are pointing fingers at.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
I remember dieing in the Karana's and couldn't get my stuff back. I was exploring and entered an area above my level and went too deep. Man I felt bummed because earning stuff back then actually made you appreciate what you had. Even if it was just regular items with no stat buffs. The next day I went to the orc highway with the little gear I could scrape up. Was in a group killing orcs when a stranger asked whats up with your gear. I told him I died and couldn't make it back to my corpse. He said hang on a sec. He went and found one of the wandering giants, killed it, and gave me the steel weapon that dropped and some armor he had. I was in awe that someone, a perfect stranger, would do that in a game. Community was so much better when the games were actually challenging and we had to work with each other. Bring back the death penalty. If you don't like it, there are other games more suited to your playstyle.
Originally posted by apocoluster its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.
I got 9 more months left on teh sub..I guess I should
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I remember dieing in the Karana's and couldn't get my stuff back. I was exploring and entered an area above my level and went too deep. Man I felt bummed because earning stuff back then actually made you appreciate what you had. Even if it was just regular items with no stat buffs. The next day I went to the orc highway with the little gear I could scrape up. Was in a group killing orcs when a stranger asked whats up with your gear. I told him I died and couldn't make it back to my corpse. He said hang on a sec. He went and found one of the wandering giants, killed it, and gave me the steel weapon that dropped and some armor he had. I was in awe that someone, a perfect stranger, would do that in a game. Community was so much better when the games were actually challenging and we had to work with each other. Bring back the death penalty. If you don't like it, there are other games more suited to your playstyle.
Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by apocoluster Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by apocoluster its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.
I got 9 more months left on teh sub..I guess I should
Have you played since the F2P model came in, if not then you will be pleased to know that the Telon server is heaving.
Originally posted by apocoluster its EQ I would like to see some sort of death penalty..maybe not as harsh as dropping a corpse and loosing all my shit but a stiff xp hit..without the deleveling would be ok...like a 10 to 15% xp fault and with the abiltiy to go "in the hole".
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.
I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.
I got 9 more months left on teh sub..I guess I should
Have you played since the F2P model came in, if not then you will be pleased to know that the Telon server is heaving.
I came in right at the FTP public launch. They were offering 1 year subs at like $7/month...so having the cash I picked up the year..played for couple hours and forgot about it..until reading this thread
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Well over a decade ago when I was playing UO, I would have agreed with you on punishing death. But then I had no real responsibilities, plenty of free time, the arrogance of youth, and there weren't many alternatives to compare UO to.
Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.
I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
You may not like to hear this but you are also supporting the super casual MMOS as much as the guy you are pointing fingers at.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
So you are bemoaning the fact people like a different kind of game and that is whats killing the industry, then support the games that have exactly what you are bemoaning, refusing to support lower budget titles (which in turn will show that they are a financially feasible proposition so that some day all you whiney sandbox people will get your AAA pure sandbox mmo) and then complain, and stay with me on this, no BUSINESS, will take such a significant financial risk when no one ever supports the games?
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.
I remember dieing in the Karana's and couldn't get my stuff back. I was exploring and entered an area above my level and went too deep. Man I felt bummed because earning stuff back then actually made you appreciate what you had. Even if it was just regular items with no stat buffs.
The next day I went to the orc highway with the little gear I could scrape up. Was in a group killing orcs when a stranger asked whats up with your gear. I told him I died and couldn't make it back to my corpse. He said hang on a sec. He went and found one of the wandering giants, killed it, and gave me the steel weapon that dropped and some armor he had.
Nice story but the guy should have helped you get your items back and or had a Necromancer summon your corpse to the zone line. That is how I met my wife to be and still together all these years later.
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.
Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.
I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.
So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.
Who cares if you "saw the trend first"? You still support that trend while decrying the other people who support it. That makes you worse since you claim to have known about it since it started and was with it from the beginning. You can't say its sad that people enjoy these types of games, particpate in them actively and give them glowing praise, then white and moan that it is the industry standard.
People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues).
What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all.
Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.
Basically a death penalty plays two roles:
1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.
2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.
Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.
We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.
The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.
1. This wasn't largely related to pvp related death penalties as far as I'm aware. That is a whole other discussion to be had. Who are you to say that the person that keeps dying isn't putting in as much time and effort as the one that accomplished it on their first try? That's far more selfish of an opinion. Perhaps the first simply isn't as good a player as the latter. All you're going to do is create attrition in the player base.
2. The lore to deal with it is generally kind of poor if you use the term "death" and you say it needs to fit in for the sake of immersion. Ok, what about AC? Death didn't actually exist. You appeared at the bind stones effectively immortal, how does that mean anything? And EVE, you have clones, clones everywhere. For the sake of immersion, I could care less about death if I'm just gonna pop back up at a rock or wake up in one of my many cloned bodies.
Edit: Guess I shouldn't walk away while typing up a post or someone will edit theres and it won't be completely relevant anymore. The reason they are increasing accesibility is because the average gamer is aging and they want to draw in a new audience to the market, that being the younger generations because fresh blood means a new influx of money for however long. As a result the complexity of the systems they will deliver will be reduced to a level they feel is sufficient to entice that market.
You can't expect the kind of funding any AAA would get if you cater it to an exceptionally niche audience, the more you reduce the audience and financial viability of the game, the less wise it is to invest in it, at least heavily. Creating games is a business, which seems to be something people won't consider as the driving force behind it. While there are no doubt many great people working in the industry that love to make games they find entertaining, unless its privately funded it is unlikely you'll get the "super high quality" version of that mmo that you demand, because you won't support the mediocre quality ones when they come along because it doesn't match every facet of your need.
Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.
If it has a grind for gear in raid or whatnot then I'd probably not want the above; UO had it right with the ease of access to player crafted items and the ability to lose everything on your person if you were dumbass at surviving out in the world.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
1. This wasn't largely related to pvp related death penalties as far as I'm aware. That is a whole other discussion to be had. Who are you to say that the person that keeps dying isn't putting in as much time and effort as the one that accomplished it on their first try? That's far more selfish of an opinion. Perhaps the first simply isn't as good a player as the latter. All you're going to do is create attrition in the player base.
2. The lore to deal with it is generally kind of poor if you use the term "death" and you say it needs to fit in for the sake of immersion. Ok, what about AC? Death didn't actually exist. You appeared at the bind stones effectively immortal, how does that mean anything? And EVE, you have clones, clones everywhere. For the sake of immersion, I could care less about death if I'm just gonna pop back up at a rock or wake up in one of my many cloned bodies.
You are simply choosing to ignore the issues related to death in a shared play space with others. You also don't play sports do you? Both athletes put a hell of a lot of time into what they do but only one can be the victor. The loser cannot simply say, "Ok that wasn't my best so let's do this again!". No, they may have to wait an entire year to get their revenge or at least until a properly scheduled rematch. This is the nature of sport. It is also the nature of nearly everything like life ... war, work, love, etc, etc.
The death penalty in a sandbox simply must be an active system that works along side of the other systems in the game. A sandbox game is entirely about the synergy between these systems. Sure the game could go virtually no death penalty but this isn't without an impact. You effectively have immortal players simply zerging content without some sort of penalty. Typically this is a minor time penalty and possible item decay to slow progress but that is likely too limited in a game space far more open where many opposing players battle over objectives. It is about how sandbox the game really is.
A true sandbox is about all systems impacting each other. Death is part of this. It could impact the craft economy greatly. Typically item decay is created to emulate item wear and loss. If you lose items upon death this directly affects the economy is a significant way and cannot be simply ignored because a few players are butt hurt over losing their +1 Toe Ring of Epeen. Trivializing death in a sandbox game risks trivialising the game itself. You may as well start throwing in other conveniences that ruined the genre to begin.
A sandbox game isn't your typical themepark mmo. It is about emulating a world, not making a funhouse you run through holding hands with a friend scared of what's around the corner. Certainly opinion comes into play but beyond a certain point an opinion means nothing if simply arguing completely against the core concept of the subject. You may not like wings on a plane because it makes them look funny but they serve a rather important function.
I've also already answered your edited point. You cannot cater to everyone. At some point you break the genre you once made. Sandbox games aren't just played by the old school audience who you seem to suggest is about to die out. Attracting new players has nothing to do with how easy a game is unless you suggest new players are stupid, lazy and broke. Making a sandbox game is about not compromising the genre you chose to create a game for. I suggest that death is a fundamental system within a sandbox game. You suggest otherwise. I still have yet to hear how death doesn't impact nearly every other system in a game that is define by it's immense degree is synergy between all systems. I cannot see how one major system that impacts all players can be entirely isolated from all other systems. Prove me that and I will consider otherwise.
You shouldn't be so presumptious. I played sports for over a decade, traveled more than enough for it, won and loss more than enough tourneys and once again we arren't talking about real life, we are talking about a world people play to experience something other than that.
I think the issue derives from the fact we look at the relevance of a death penalty from two entirely different points of view. From a fiscal perspective things like significant item decay and destruction and death penalties interfere with established behavioral systems any modern MMO employs to increase its user retention.
You on the other hand are looking at from a gameplay point of view.
In regards to the actual OP, EQNext isn't supposed to be a complete sandbox but a hybrid as Smedley said unless he is just saying both which is more than likely at this point, so the argument for that absolute need of death penalties because the interdependencies of a sandboxs systems are what makes it a sandbox doesn't hold.
Edit: I don't remember reading the last paragraph of yours but what I'm saying is its not necessary to even have that system in there. While I personally don't mind moderate death penalties I don't particularly care for pure sandboxes most of the time. Did enjoy Shadowbane though. There has to be an ease of gain for equipment if destruction and decay exist. People become attached to those items and losing it can be an extremely jarring experience for the majority of players, especially if they had to invest moderate to significant amounts of time acquiring it. You take that away and you take away a huge sense of the accomplishment of that player which could be the death knell for their subscription.
Comments
I was there at launch for VG, the game was way to buggy and shoppy besides my PC back then wasen't that good either so I returned 2 years later and they had closed the PVP server and merge that population with another server can't remebered the name.
I would lovew to play EQ again but I can't stand the graphics, I got a good PC now and I would like to have a MMO with all the features I like and good graphics but it seems you can't eat the cake and save it at the same time.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
You may not like to hear this but you are also supporting the super casual MMOS as much as the guy you are pointing fingers at.
This person is what game developers are listening to that's why we have so many casual WoW clones flooding the MMO world.
Sad world indeed.
For someone who is die hard GW2 fan your whole post reeks of irony. You should be the last person to point fingers at any casual players in a topic called 'who wants punishing deaths'.
The day you stop supporting and playing 'casual heaven' games like GW2, your words will have some weight.
i enjoy Gw2 for the simple reason that GW2 feels fresh and new compare to the rest of the lot.
And yes I would have more death penelty in GW2 aswell so people will group up more often.
Would It thelp that I also play EVE from time to time since 2003 and doing PVP on a regular basis? ( on EVE break atm)
One more thing can you please direct me to a game that is a AAA and has a deep crafting,great PVE,awesome PVP, huge world, great graphics, housing with decoration, smart AI mobs,living world fantasy MMO?
And No don't bother posting MO or Darkfall or Vanguard for that matter, played all three of them liked VG the most but lacked PVP.
So you are allowed to enjoy your GW2 casual themepark MMO but if someone else expresses that he prefers the same casual games he gets flamed? and you are telling him he is the reason why we are only getting WOW casual clones in market? why the double standards?
or you are saying that casual MMO is ok as long as it is not a WOW casual clone? because GW2 is the most casual MMO on the market right now.
Practise what you preach bro. GW2 fans flaming others for disliking 'harsh death penalities' is not even funny but sad.
The lack of harsher death penalities in GW2 certainly didn't stop you from becoming its white knight so why isn't he allowed to dislike death penalities?
+1I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.I remember dieing in the Karana's and couldn't get my stuff back. I was exploring and entered an area above my level and went too deep. Man I felt bummed because earning stuff back then actually made you appreciate what you had. Even if it was just regular items with no stat buffs.
The next day I went to the orc highway with the little gear I could scrape up. Was in a group killing orcs when a stranger asked whats up with your gear. I told him I died and couldn't make it back to my corpse. He said hang on a sec. He went and found one of the wandering giants, killed it, and gave me the steel weapon that dropped and some armor he had.
I was in awe that someone, a perfect stranger, would do that in a game. Community was so much better when the games were actually challenging and we had to work with each other.
Bring back the death penalty. If you don't like it, there are other games more suited to your playstyle.
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.
Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?
Besides didn't you also played GW2?
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
This post says it all really.+1
I got 9 more months left on teh sub..I guess I should
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I hope the hardcore server that smed says might be in the game does include deleveling. The way i see it is you have a choice on whether you choose that server or not. I think what you are asking for should be on the normal servers its similiar to Vanguard anyway.I really need to put some time into Vanguard I guess...It is sitting on my desktop..toon is only lvl 11 having just left the starter Isle
Man you should go out into that vast world that is Telon.I got 9 more months left on teh sub..I guess I should
Have you played since the F2P model came in, if not then you will be pleased to know that the Telon server is heaving.I came in right at the FTP public launch. They were offering 1 year subs at like $7/month...so having the cash I picked up the year..played for couple hours and forgot about it..until reading this thread
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
So you are bemoaning the fact people like a different kind of game and that is whats killing the industry, then support the games that have exactly what you are bemoaning, refusing to support lower budget titles (which in turn will show that they are a financially feasible proposition so that some day all you whiney sandbox people will get your AAA pure sandbox mmo) and then complain, and stay with me on this, no BUSINESS, will take such a significant financial risk when no one ever supports the games?
Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.
Nice story but the guy should have helped you get your items back and or had a Necromancer summon your corpse to the zone line. That is how I met my wife to be and still together all these years later.
I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have. They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them.
I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible. I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up.
My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties.
Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.
I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.
So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.
Basically a death penalty plays two roles:
1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.
2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.
Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.
We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.
The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.
You stay sassy!
1. This wasn't largely related to pvp related death penalties as far as I'm aware. That is a whole other discussion to be had. Who are you to say that the person that keeps dying isn't putting in as much time and effort as the one that accomplished it on their first try? That's far more selfish of an opinion. Perhaps the first simply isn't as good a player as the latter. All you're going to do is create attrition in the player base.
2. The lore to deal with it is generally kind of poor if you use the term "death" and you say it needs to fit in for the sake of immersion. Ok, what about AC? Death didn't actually exist. You appeared at the bind stones effectively immortal, how does that mean anything? And EVE, you have clones, clones everywhere. For the sake of immersion, I could care less about death if I'm just gonna pop back up at a rock or wake up in one of my many cloned bodies.
Edit: Guess I shouldn't walk away while typing up a post or someone will edit theres and it won't be completely relevant anymore. The reason they are increasing accesibility is because the average gamer is aging and they want to draw in a new audience to the market, that being the younger generations because fresh blood means a new influx of money for however long. As a result the complexity of the systems they will deliver will be reduced to a level they feel is sufficient to entice that market.
You can't expect the kind of funding any AAA would get if you cater it to an exceptionally niche audience, the more you reduce the audience and financial viability of the game, the less wise it is to invest in it, at least heavily. Creating games is a business, which seems to be something people won't consider as the driving force behind it. While there are no doubt many great people working in the industry that love to make games they find entertaining, unless its privately funded it is unlikely you'll get the "super high quality" version of that mmo that you demand, because you won't support the mediocre quality ones when they come along because it doesn't match every facet of your need.
Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.
If it has a grind for gear in raid or whatnot then I'd probably not want the above; UO had it right with the ease of access to player crafted items and the ability to lose everything on your person if you were dumbass at surviving out in the world.
You are simply choosing to ignore the issues related to death in a shared play space with others. You also don't play sports do you? Both athletes put a hell of a lot of time into what they do but only one can be the victor. The loser cannot simply say, "Ok that wasn't my best so let's do this again!". No, they may have to wait an entire year to get their revenge or at least until a properly scheduled rematch. This is the nature of sport. It is also the nature of nearly everything like life ... war, work, love, etc, etc.
The death penalty in a sandbox simply must be an active system that works along side of the other systems in the game. A sandbox game is entirely about the synergy between these systems. Sure the game could go virtually no death penalty but this isn't without an impact. You effectively have immortal players simply zerging content without some sort of penalty. Typically this is a minor time penalty and possible item decay to slow progress but that is likely too limited in a game space far more open where many opposing players battle over objectives. It is about how sandbox the game really is.
A true sandbox is about all systems impacting each other. Death is part of this. It could impact the craft economy greatly. Typically item decay is created to emulate item wear and loss. If you lose items upon death this directly affects the economy is a significant way and cannot be simply ignored because a few players are butt hurt over losing their +1 Toe Ring of Epeen. Trivializing death in a sandbox game risks trivialising the game itself. You may as well start throwing in other conveniences that ruined the genre to begin.
A sandbox game isn't your typical themepark mmo. It is about emulating a world, not making a funhouse you run through holding hands with a friend scared of what's around the corner. Certainly opinion comes into play but beyond a certain point an opinion means nothing if simply arguing completely against the core concept of the subject. You may not like wings on a plane because it makes them look funny but they serve a rather important function.
I've also already answered your edited point. You cannot cater to everyone. At some point you break the genre you once made. Sandbox games aren't just played by the old school audience who you seem to suggest is about to die out. Attracting new players has nothing to do with how easy a game is unless you suggest new players are stupid, lazy and broke. Making a sandbox game is about not compromising the genre you chose to create a game for. I suggest that death is a fundamental system within a sandbox game. You suggest otherwise. I still have yet to hear how death doesn't impact nearly every other system in a game that is define by it's immense degree is synergy between all systems. I cannot see how one major system that impacts all players can be entirely isolated from all other systems. Prove me that and I will consider otherwise.
You stay sassy!
You shouldn't be so presumptious. I played sports for over a decade, traveled more than enough for it, won and loss more than enough tourneys and once again we arren't talking about real life, we are talking about a world people play to experience something other than that.
I think the issue derives from the fact we look at the relevance of a death penalty from two entirely different points of view. From a fiscal perspective things like significant item decay and destruction and death penalties interfere with established behavioral systems any modern MMO employs to increase its user retention.
You on the other hand are looking at from a gameplay point of view.
In regards to the actual OP, EQNext isn't supposed to be a complete sandbox but a hybrid as Smedley said unless he is just saying both which is more than likely at this point, so the argument for that absolute need of death penalties because the interdependencies of a sandboxs systems are what makes it a sandbox doesn't hold.
Edit: I don't remember reading the last paragraph of yours but what I'm saying is its not necessary to even have that system in there. While I personally don't mind moderate death penalties I don't particularly care for pure sandboxes most of the time. Did enjoy Shadowbane though. There has to be an ease of gain for equipment if destruction and decay exist. People become attached to those items and losing it can be an extremely jarring experience for the majority of players, especially if they had to invest moderate to significant amounts of time acquiring it. You take that away and you take away a huge sense of the accomplishment of that player which could be the death knell for their subscription.