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We got enough Games. Give me a World.

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  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Originally posted by Kenze
    Originally posted by apocoluster
       Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

     

    ^this x100

     

    Yes, because the sandbox game where you run around in wizard robes shooting fireballs and burning down towns, is just like your real life.

    Neither is sufficiently like real life for this to be a valid argument. Apple to Oranges to Pineapples

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,972Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kenze
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by tom_gore

     

    Naturally, if you decide to let them take it, they will. That's the issue, people don't want to lose anything, but they don't have what it takes to keep everything. Then they want bunch of artifical barriers to protect them, and the vicious cycle of instancing and roller coaster rides begun.

     

     

    yeah cause nothing is more fun than a survival of the fittest, death sport,penal colony world filled with crafters and politicians...

    Describes EVE perfectly, and you are correct, there is nothing more fun (for me) out there right now.

    With the opportunity for great evil comes the chance for great good as well. 

    Everything else is just a lukewarm in between.

    image

    I'm all for more, bigger, better virtual worlds, but know that my playing preferences are clearly in the minority of paying customers.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cura
    Originally posted by apocoluster
       Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

    Ill agree with you... as soon as i can travel through the universe in a straship looking for ancient civilizations or devote my life to study magic and evil planes of existance.

    The human mind has really made Earth seem so dull.

    Also Earth can only be sandboxy if you have enough cash to throw at it.

     

    OT: Minecraft has shown that a few people like to play games inside a virtual world. The tools are there to do it. It's just doing it well.

     

    image
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Kenze

    Because I like fantasy settings. It's not like EQ was that boxed in, the games today literally drag you around by the nose. Leave the boxed in fantasy play to consoles.
  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Kenze
    Originally posted by apocoluster
       Disagree.  Give me games.  The real world is plenty enough Sandboxy for me.  I play games to get away from it.

     

    ^this x100

    Disagree, we have plenty of game "games" to choose from, yet little sandbox type games atmost open world games that still doesn't satisfied the wants and needs of a sandbox gamer.

    And how can anyone say that the real world is sandboxy enough when we are talking about fantasy or sci-fi worlds we like our sandbox to coinsied in?

    MMORPG's started of with giving gamer a complete different game experiance compared to what we already could play in other genre's.

    But....I do know there is a niche audience for a sandbox type of MMORPG, it's not for the masses. The masses have proven time and time again that being more guided is more fun then being at a lost. Nothing wrong with that. But then can't you admit there is room for more?

    When someone askes for a more sandboxy type of MMORPG, he/she also wants that entertaining form of escapism, but atleast speaking for myself I want that escapism in a more believable world set in a sci-fi or fantasy world where it's not only about combat, though it may take a major part. there is a hugh community that can support a game if there is more to it then just playing a online combat game. As said we have plenty of that already.....

     

     

    I didnt say Make Reklaw play Themeparks...I said give ME more games.  I guess  Ineed to break down my metaphor for the other guy.    Ive played plenty of MMOs, including the Sandy ones.  SWG, Eve, project Entropia and numerous numerous Themepark games too.  The assiciation FOR ME with sandparks to real life is that every one of the  sandy games ive ever played requires such an investment in time and effort on my part to maintain any sort of digital lifestyle for my toon, that in my mind Ive essentially come to think of sandy games as 2nd jobs.  To clarify i meant to say: 

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job.  I want to have fun on the few remaining hours that are available to me between Dinner and bedtime.   Rather than sitting in line waiting for Doctor buffs so I can hunt HQ times for my Armorcrafter machines, or suck  vibrant sweat off of beasts with dozens of others to sell to crafters or Down load my Millionth Veldspar rock...I want to be told to walk 50 feet and kill 10 rats.  Thank you.

     

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Why would anyone want their games limited because they dislike one or two things? And large open world offers much more than a small map that you are lead around on a leash.

    I like sandbox and large open world to explore and take my time. If i dont like something i simply have the option to ignore it or dont take part in it. But not having said feature doesnt give me the option and limits the game as a whole.

    Narrow minded people in the gaming community this day in age. More = better, and you can choice what you want to do.

     

    I guess due to the huge amount of crap mmo's with limitations out the butt the community just got use to it being this way.

     

    And "i live in a world so i dont want to play in one" arguement is kind of lame. Because i highly doubt you are taking part in the entire world you live in, so the same can go for a game world. Nice to have it, but not forced to do everything..

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    The thing is true MMORPG games are still a niche group and everyone thought it would be cool to make online single player story driven games and call them MMOs. 90% of what makes a MMO is longer longer even in these games because the mass people playing them do not want them so develops don't make true MMOs. As long as we allow them to keep calling these games MMOs we will never see a true MMO until 2015 when Pathfinder Online comes out.

    Notice that game isn't even on this site!

    Now they can make these new games they call MMOs but I think they need to be defined for what they are: OSPSG!

    There are some developers out there trying to make true MMOs but they are not supported because the new gamers think grahpics and flash are what matters when in a MMO it is gameplay and content which requires not the best graphic. Xsyon is about the best MMO out even though it isn't complete because it is a MMO. If more people would support it they could complete it and it would be huge, but games today would rather have pretty games without content.

    Being a MMORPG gamer is a life choice just like playing PnP RPGs. It isn't for the gamers who are not serious in playing their games.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Why would anyone want their games limited because they dislike one or two things? And large open world offers much more than a small map that you are lead around on a leash.

    I like sandbox and large open world to explore and take my time. If i dont like something i simply have the option to ignore it or dont take part in it. But not having said feature doesnt give me the option and limits the game as a whole.

    Narrow minded people in the gaming community this day in age. More = better, and you can choice what you want to do.

     

    I guess due to the huge amount of crap mmo's with limitations out the butt the community just got use to it being this way.

     

    And "i live in a world so i dont want to play in one" arguement is kind of lame. Because i highly doubt you are taking part in the entire world you live in, so the same can go for a game world. Nice to have it, but not forced to do everything..

    Why build all this world if its just going to get ignored for the most part by most of the players.   The players are doing what they want to do.  If every Themepark was deleted off every server right now..and replaced by open world player driven sandboxes your not going to have a new crop of sandbox players arrive...it will still just be you guys..the niche and the rest (well 99%) will just stop gaming.

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    I agree.  There are some people that also get it, refer to link below.  I wouldn't expect to see anything from big developers though.

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/greed-monger-a-crafting-focused-sandbox-mmorpg/posts/342590

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    The thing is, you can have a world that is still a game, despite what some of the uninitiated around here say.

    If people want the dumbed-down casual / solo / anti-social MMO experience, the market is flooded with games that cater to them.  Oh yeah, and people love them so much, they leave after 30-90 days of yawn-inspiring "gameplay".  That, as a business model, is not sustainable as Smedley has been saying.  Content-chase is never going to work for a game company. 

    This is why there is so much discussion *FINALLY* in recent months about bringing emergent gameplay systems, sandbox, and virtual world features back to some MMO for those of us who want a more complex and engaging experience.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by apocolusterWhy build all this world if its just going to get ignored for the most part by most of the players.   The players are doing what they want to do.  If every Themepark was deleted off every server right now..and replaced by open world player driven sandboxes your not going to have a new crop of sandbox players arrive...it will still just be you guys..the niche and the rest (well 99%) will just stop gaming.

    Sadly, it is hard to talk to someone with their head buried deep in the sand... They won't get the message regardless how clear it is...

    Well put tho, +1.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apocoluster

    Why build all this world if its just going to get ignored for the most part by most of the players.   The players are doing what they want to do.  If every Themepark was deleted off every server right now..and replaced by open world player driven sandboxes your not going to have a new crop of sandbox players arrive...it will still just be you guys..the niche and the rest (well 99%) will just stop gaming.

    I'd have to disagree with you here as your implying most gamers play the same. Most MMO's are purely focused around combat. If your creating worlds its not just about combat. Take a look at EvE. You can do all sorts in that world.

    You prefer easy games to challenging ones though after a hard days work. Again, not everyone is like that. I prefer a mentally stimulating game over easy.

    image
  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by apocoluster I guess  Ineed to break down my metaphor for the other guy.    Ive played plenty of MMOs, including the Sandy ones.  SWG, Eve, project Entropia and numerous numerous Themepark games too.  The assiciation FOR ME with sandparks to real life is that every one of the  sandy games ive ever played requires such an investment in time and effort on my part to maintain any sort of digital lifestyle for my toon, that in my mind Ive essentially come to think of sandy games as 2nd jobs.  To clarify i meant to say: 

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job.  I want to have fun on the few remaining hours that are available to me between Dinner and bedtime.   Rather than sitting in line waiting for Doctor buffs so I can hunt HQ times for my Armorcrafter machines, or suck  vibrant sweat off of beasts with dozens of others to sell to crafters or Down load my Millionth Veldspar rock...I want to be told to walk 50 feet and kill 10 rats.  Thank you.

     

    Thanks for the clarification, and that's all fine and good, I play those "relaxation games" too for the same reasons. However I dont ask each and every game to fill that criteria. I dont announce that I do not want to see anymore turn based strategy games just because I dont like them, many people do like them and they should have their games too.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    What I hope to see is games that can have both features for people. Give NPCs generic kill/gather/travel quests but also have systems to let people blaze their own path. Heck, make algorithms for every single NPC in the game to have simple quests for this that like them. Other than that have a few intertwining main storylines with a lot of sandbox tools.

    I'm glad people have fun with the games that are out there, that's what games are for. I personally other than EQ2 really don't get the kind of fantasy MMO I would like and would welcome something a little more sandboxy.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    The thing is, you can have a world that is still a game, depsite what some of the uninitiated around here say.

    If people want the dumbed-down casual / solo / anti-social MMO experience, the market is flooded with games that cater to them.  Oh yeah, and people love them so much, they leave after 30-90 days of yawn-inspiring "gameplay".  That, as a business model, is not sustainable as Smedley has been saying.  Content-chase is never going to work for a game company. 

    This is why there is so much discussion *FINALLY* in recent months about bringing emergent gameplay systems, sandbox, and virtual world features back to some MMO for those of us who want a more complex and engaging experience.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apocoluster

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job. 

     

    Yeah, a guy I know played SWG when it started. He told me that one day he realized that it was like a second job that he wasn't getting paid for.

    Especially when he realized that he was becoming overwhelmed with orders and couldn't work fast enough to fulfill them.

    He later started EQ and that seemed a better fit.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    What I hope to see is games that can have both features for people. Give NPCs generic kill/gather/travel quests but also have systems to let people blaze their own path. Heck, make algorithms for every single NPC in the game to have simple quests for this that like them. Other than that have a few intertwining main storylines with a lot of sandbox tools.

    I'm glad people have fun with the games that are out there, that's what games are for. I personally other than EQ2 really don't get the kind of fantasy MMO I would like and would welcome something a little more sandboxy.

    Ok, this I can stand behind.  Two games one title..a fully realized Sandbox and and a fully realized Themepark. Great but would the two sets of players be on teh same server?

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by apocoluster

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job. 

     

    Yeah, a guy I know played SWG when it started. He told me that one day he realized that it was like a second job that he wasn't getting paid for.

    Especially when he realized that he was becoming overwhelmed with orders and couldn't work fast enough to fulfill them.

    He later started EQ and that seemed a better fit.

    LOL, he could have just stepped away from crafting and did something else for awhile. I had 4 crafters (one of the first architects on Intrepid which many cities were made by my items) and never felt it was a 2nd job. In SWG the factories did the work for you, the harvesters collected the resources for you.  When crafting became too much you simply stopped and went out exploring, went to the local pvp area, went to the cantina and just TALKED to people, went to places you havent seen before for quests, ran missions, went out with the guild to help new players, and so much more. I would break my jedi out and go fight, would break my bh out and go hunt, i would take my scout and go get hide/meat/bone for other crafters, and even break my entertainer out just to go chat with my fellow community brothers.

    None of which you can do in these simplified games, because the past 6 "themepark" things you call games no one does any of that. They are rushing to the end and then quit. That is the norm for the new age mmo's.

    With larger open world the fact you can do anything at any time and pick and choose how you want to do it is key.

     

    And its the reason why sandboxes are coming out in force soon. Gamers are sick of these other games they try to call mmorpg's. If you want a game and not a full fledged game, go play a console game. Because there is no diffrence between that and the garbage released lately. Matter of fact most the console games now have 100% more than the mmo's lol.

    If I am to pay for a game and a monthly fee I do not want limitations just because some cant figure out they can do more in a mmo.

     

    And there are more than 1% that like larger world, why there are tons of posts on the subject ;)

    And player content > everything else. Just saying, creativity seems to be at an all time low :/

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Wholly agree with the OP, we need more 'Worlds' as games these days are too ephemeral in nature, we get all this hype about them before launch, and then a few weeks later everyone is waiting for the next thing, and then there is the increasing nature of games to be less of a social experience, i can't think of a single game released in the last few years that really attempted to make the actions of other players count for something, everything has to be solo, and when you do group, its an 'anonymous' experience, your not a person, just a place holder whether its as part of a trinity or as just another warm body to do/soak damage. So while i do agree with the op about games being more 'World' i think they also need to encourage interdependance. Burning through solo content in a 'game' is not a replacement for gameplay, and it requires constant additions to the game, or players leave once they have done everything, repeatable content is just boring, hence why its often referred to as 'grind' where its only done to obtain rare loot of some kind, or points to buy better/more things. SWG had a lot of these things years ago, it still strikes me as odd that despite all its flaws, and there were many, SWG still has more advanced gameplay than so many modern games, which, for me is an indicator that themepark games are not evolving, rather their marking time waiting for something to 'copy'..  image
  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member

    Why not have both a game and a world come to think of it i play an MMO that offers both.

     

    Vanguard.

    image
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Apocoluster

    For development cost purposes and community I would say yes, have everyone in the same space. Here are a few ways to integrate themeparks and sandboxes IMO:

    1. Material based loot rather than dropped armor and weapons.

    2. NPC quest algorythm that automated simple quest objectives based on area, season and mob availablility.

    3. If there are levels there needs to be level scaling of some sort with actual power taken into account, not just base stats.

    Raiding, a mainstay of themepark MMOs, would be tougher to make work for both play types. I think It would work with the coupling of a few systems at the same time however. Level scaling, or skill based making it negligible, that enabled forked progression rather than linear. Image that there were invisible cow spots on a world map. The areas would be city/town/village, soloable content, group content, raid content. At any one point there would be areas to go in order to solo, group or raid. The only difference would be the toughness and frequency of mobs along with materials associated with them.

    This by no means covers all but I believe a ybrid that makes both fans happy is more than possible.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by apocoluster

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job. 

     

    Yeah, a guy I know played SWG when it started. He told me that one day he realized that it was like a second job that he wasn't getting paid for.

    Especially when he realized that he was becoming overwhelmed with orders and couldn't work fast enough to fulfill them.

    He later started EQ and that seemed a better fit.

    LOL, he could have just stepped away from crafting and did something else for awhile

    He did. EQ, and he liked it better.

    I suppose nothing else in SWG appealed to him.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by apocoluster

     

      Disagree.  Give me somthing to relax with after a long day of work.  Sandbox games for me seem to be essentially a 2nd job. 

     

    Yeah, a guy I know played SWG when it started. He told me that one day he realized that it was like a second job that he wasn't getting paid for.

    Especially when he realized that he was becoming overwhelmed with orders and couldn't work fast enough to fulfill them.

    He later started EQ and that seemed a better fit.

    This is kind of silly, since there is no real pressure to get anything done in SWG unless you did it to yourself.    I managed to run one of the top Weapon shops on my server back in the day, including selling the stuff that was insane to manufacture such as krayt tissue weapons and rocket launchers, and I never felt like it was a second job.

    Sorry, but his issue was self-inflicted. 

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • KenzeKenze Posts: 1,214Member Uncommon

    here you guys go..

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/05/crafting-focused-sandbox-greed-monger-starts-kickstarter-campaig/

     

    I guess if you guys want it so badly you could put your money where your mouth is, as they say :)

    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    —Lao-Tze

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    I like the concept of this game. The graphics are ok, but the mechanics behind the game sound solid. I do hope this game does well.

    Archeage, the repopulation, and a few other sandbox style games are on the horizon as well.

    If one or two can do well, we may see the industry slide in that direction, because themeparks just dont seem to be going anywhere.

     

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