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I hope EQNEXT is a hybrid

2

Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Assuming actions lead to consequences.

    This is easier to say than pull off thus FFA PVP usually does kill the game for many.


    Not to say that FFA PVP gets more than often tagged along with stupid ideas like alignment system or player self-policing...

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Assuming actions lead to consequences.


     

    This is easier to say than pull off thus FFA PVP usually does kill the game for many.


    Not to say that FFA PVP gets more than often tagged along with stupid ideas like alignment system or player self-policing...

     

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.

     

    Other than that, the regular alignment system never works, just because the penalties aren't severe enough.

     

     

    image

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Assuming actions lead to consequences.


     

    This is easier to say than pull off thus FFA PVP usually does kill the game for many.


    Not to say that FFA PVP gets more than often tagged along with stupid ideas like alignment system or player self-policing...

     

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.

     

    Other than that, the regular alignment system never works, just because the penalties aren't severe enough.

     

     

    Yep that's why shadowbane was so successful . 

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.

    You mean where everyone else was driven off the game? That is how it "works" for all games...it annihilates their player base.


    Alignment system never works because:

    1) It presumes a state of consequence that can be reverted - you can work your penalty off.
    2) It does nothing for victims.

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Amaranthar
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer
    Originally posted by Amaranthar
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer
    Pretty much sums up what i want. I want the world to actually have some interesting background, lore, npc's, mobs, bosses and general characters, quests, story, etc, but still allow us to affect and be affected by it and others player's actions. But for now, since Smed on gave vague clues of the game, i'm not holding my breath.

    Really? In a game with the power gaps of a Themepark, and you want player's actions to affect other players?

    When the hell did i ever say anything about power gaps? I didn't meantion anything about the progression system. 

    MMOExposed- Who said anything about FFA PVP. We have no idea what the game's going to be like. 

    Well, the OP was about wanting a "hybrid", and you said that's what you want. And a hybrid has Themepark in it, so levelling through content for level based rewards.

    But I take it that's NOT what you want? (That's why I asked.)

    Of course not. Sorry, if i didn't make myself clear. I pointed out in my own post that i don't mind quests, story, etc. Never talked about the kind off progression system.

    Trust me, if there's one thing i don't want is a zoned world with different level ranges instead of a "go in any direction" kind of game.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.


     

    You mean where everyone else was driven off the game? That is how it "works" for all games...it annihilates their player base.


    Alignment system never works because:

    1) It presumes a state of consequence that can be reverted - you can work your penalty off.
    2) It does nothing for victims.

     i agree, it should be a one way street, and a painful one at that. If fact it should be so painful that most wouldnt even consider it. Exceptions would be for wartime states and lawless areas.

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by pvpirl

    It will be.

    EQ1 and SWG and PS2 are going to hatch a baby.

    EQ1 and Vanguard and SWG and EQ2 (player made content system) and PS2 are going to have a baby.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by rungard

    i agree, it should be a one way street, and a painful one at that. If fact it should be so painful that most wouldnt even consider it. Exceptions would be for wartime states and lawless areas.

    Penalty severity is non-factor, secondary at best.

    Regardless how severe the penalty is, it won't fix basic issue with any alignment system:

    Aggressor needs a chance to fail and lose, and victims needs tools or mechanics that protects them.


    No alignment can ever address those issue and fix that broken formula.

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member

    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Assuming actions lead to consequences.


     

    This is easier to say than pull off thus FFA PVP usually does kill the game for many.


    Not to say that FFA PVP gets more than often tagged along with stupid ideas like alignment system or player self-policing...

     

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.

     

    Other than that, the regular alignment system never works, just because the penalties aren't severe enough.

     

     

    Yep that's why shadowbane was so successful . 

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Neherun

    Player self-policing worked well in Shadowbane, where people had balls.


     

    You mean where everyone else was driven off the game? That is how it "works" for all games...it annihilates their player base.


    Alignment system never works because:

    1) It presumes a state of consequence that can be reverted - you can work your penalty off.
    2) It does nothing for victims.

     

    Shadowbane's level of succeeding on the market and people leaving the game had little to do with its system, the games "politcal siege warfare" as a concept was endorsed by most. Also, it wasn't the rough world where the weaker got stomped that turned people off. It was the horrific graphics from the 90's, the extremely horrible standard UI, the amount of bugs in the game, the lag and simple lack of polishing that alianated players from the game.

    It still is considered the best player vs. player scene by many.

     

    Like many of MMORPG's, Shadowbane didn't have millions of dollars spent into marketing, same applies to many MMORPG's. I still find it funny that people think the success of themeparks is their systems themselves. Its the amount of capital used for marketing. Using an old IP can directly be translated to a marketing scheme in business world.

     

     

    image

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by rungard

    i agree, it should be a one way street, and a painful one at that. If fact it should be so painful that most wouldnt even consider it. Exceptions would be for wartime states and lawless areas.

     

    Penalty severity is non-factor, secondary at best.

    Regardless how severe the penalty is, it won't fix basic issue with any alignment system:

    Aggressor needs a chance to fail and lose, and victims needs tools or mechanics that protects them.


    No alignment can ever address those issue and fix that broken formula.

     i dont believe you to be correct here. If we choose a good/evil alignment with a one way street path to the evil side we can achieve a working alignment system.

    you do it by introducing a gods system where players choose a god who "protects" them or gives them power. When you choose a "good god" you gain access over time to skills and abilities that protect the player from "evil" players. This could include item soul binding, untouchable planar storage bags, ressurection options, evil detection and tracking powers and other neat powers that reduce the effect of evil players on your character. So you could defend yourself in many ways if you were good.

    for evil you dont get any protections as they would be seen as weak, so you get access to additional powers instead. You sacrifice safety for power and live the hardcore life. Expensive resurections, no ability to soulbind items, no safe storage, kos in guarded areas etc.

     

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    The short answer is it will be. It may lean more toward sandbox though. A true sandbox would be boring as hell that is why we've never seen one in the MMO genre. All games are hybrids as "Sandbox" and "Themepark" are two extremes on each end of a very broad spectrum. All games fall into this spectrum at various places but absolutely none are at either end.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BrenelaelA true sandbox would be boring as hell that is why we've never seen one in the MMO genre.

    Seems like www.eveonline.com passed unnoticed by you for almost a decade...

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

     

    A true sandbox would be boring as hell that is why we've never seen one in the MMO genre.


     

    Seems like www.eveonline.com passed unnoticed by you for almost a decade...

    I've played EVE quite a bit and although it is close it still isn't a true sandbox. There are NPC given missions in EVE. This is a Themepark feature. Like it or not even EVE has a few Themepark features and is a Hybrid.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    I've played EVE quite a bit and although it is close it still isn't a true sandbox. There are NPC given missions in EVE. This is a Themepark feature. Like it or not even EVE has a few Themepark features and is a Hybrid. Bren

    There are no hybrids...meaningless term.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    I've played EVE quite a bit and although it is close it still isn't a true sandbox. There are NPC given missions in EVE. This is a Themepark feature. Like it or not even EVE has a few Themepark features and is a Hybrid.

     

     

    Bren


     

    There are no hybrids...meaningless term.

    I would agree since they are all hybrids. Every game out there has both Sandbox and Themepark features. So it is meaningless when it describes 100% of games. Just as meaningless as describing a game a Sandbox or a Themepark when no game fits either of those descriptions either.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Every game out there has both Sandbox and Themepark features.

    There are themepark or sandbox features exist thus there are no hybrids.

    Meaningless terms invented because some people cannot distinguish the difference between feature and design.

    Features do not make a design.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Every game out there has both Sandbox and Themepark features.

     

    There are themepark or sandbox features exist thus there are no hybrids.

    Meaningless terms invented because some people cannot distinguish the difference between feature and design.

    Features do not make a design.

    The combined features of a game do define it's design. It is the very essence of what a game is. A "Design Document" in game development is nothing more than an organized list of features.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAPosts: 2,192Member
    Id be just fine with a hybrid.Just anything away from the full on theme park stagnation is fine with me at this point.
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    The combined features of a game do define it's design.

    See, that is what I was talking about - they don't.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brenelael
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Every game out there has both Sandbox and Themepark features.

    There are themepark or sandbox features exist thus there are no hybrids.

    Meaningless terms invented because some people cannot distinguish the difference between feature and design.

    Features do not make a design.

    The combined features of a game do define it's design. It is the very essence of what a game is. A "Design Document" in game development is nothing more than an organized list of features.

    Bren

    I agree with the statement in red and that the collection of features, their implementation, and integration define the design and mechanics of the game.  Hybrid might be vague, but isn't really incorrect because it's use to refer to those designs where features are blended - whcih like you said is 99.99% (repeating) of all mmos out there.

    Yeah, EQN is going to have both sandbox and themepark design elements.  What is more important though is if it has robust, well integrated systems that provide game depth and something more to do than stabby genocidal activities.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    the collection of features, their implementation, and integration define the design and mechanics of the game. 

    This.

    There is no such thing as sandbox or themepark features. A game can have basically identical list of features but what makes the game a sandbox or themepark is how they are implemented, not the features itself.

    Just meaningless terms.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    the collection of features, their implementation, and integration define the design and mechanics of the game. 

    This.

    There is no such thing as sandbox or themepark features. A game can have basically identical list of features but what makes the game a sandbox or themepark is how they are implemented, not the features itself.

    Just meaningless terms.

    Well, not to speak for Bren, but I think that is what he was getting at.  At least that is what I took away from his post.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    the collection of features, their implementation, and integration define the design and mechanics of the game. 

    This.

    There is no such thing as sandbox or themepark features. A game can have basically identical list of features but what makes the game a sandbox or themepark is how they are implemented, not the features itself.

    Just meaningless terms.

    Well, not to speak for Bren, but I think that is what he was getting at.  At least that is what I took away from his post.

    Exactly... Apples and Oranges... LOL

     

    EDIT Just to be clear:

    Sandbox Feature - A tool provided to the player to create content.

    Themepark Feature - A tool provided to deliver predefined content to the player.

    Then there are many features that apply to both designs

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by TorvaldrWell, not to speak for Bren, but I think that is what he was getting at. 

    If he would, he would not used those meaningless terms. Simple..

    EDIT: See? He still has no idea what we just talked about...

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Well, not to speak for Bren, but I think that is what he was getting at. 

     

    If he would, he would not used those meaningless terms. Simple..

    Only meaningless to you it would seem.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

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