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Thiefs ruin PvP/WvW for every other class ....

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
        Nothing compares to the stealthing classes DAoC had to ruin the fun of battlegrounds.....
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shatter30

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

     

    There u go

    Thank you.  Well worth all 98k views.

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 885Member Uncommon
    Thiefs are not that powerful, but they are very annoying disapearing all the time.
  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    With ground targeted Wells, increased damage Marks and Retaliation when I enter Death Shroud I find Thieves to be fine.

    But I would not like to face one if I wasn't playing my Necro (or my Mesmer alt).

    Stealth does indeed last too long, and their ability to finish downed players entirely in stealth is also a poorly designed ability.

    I beleive that both Thieves and Mesmers have the same OP abilities - I am finding this playing my Mesmer alt at the moment. It is laughably easy to win 1v1 and no problem to remove myself from combat and come back when the circumstances favour me again. Thieves enjoy the same inherent advantages even though they achieve it in different ways.

    The fact I beleive remains - good Thief players take more skill to kill than good players of other classes (with the exception of Mesmers).

    One only has to face a team with a good number of both classes to see this as clear as crystal.

    No revamp necessary - just a tone-down on the 'There's 80% of your health gone and now I'm not here until I am ready to finish you off' gameplay.

    And for the logic-challenged who might be tempted to call me a 'noob' or some other label to avoid tackling what I am saying - let me repeat myself.

    I don't find Thieves a problem - with my Necro main or Mesmer alt (I haven't played any other classes yet). I do however see how many other players do, and I get irritated when I face teams with two Thieves working in tandem who rip through the rest of my team with derisory ease and leave me holding the baby 3:1 or worse. I might not be as irritated when they are on MY side - but that is because I haven't lost an sPvP match where it happened.... not ONE....

    .... and that tells me all I need to know about the effectiveness of Thieves.... no other paired class can compare in effectiveness - hands down.

    Just because YOU find Thieves 'fine', because either you have a trick or two to deal with them, or because you play one and want things to remain as they are, doesn't mean they don't need some adjustment.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by TheHavok
    Originally posted by evilastro
    It's not that thieves are OP, it's that some classes are a bit underpowered and could do with a survivability buff - rangers, eles and necro particularly. Especially since none of them qualify as spike damage. My Mesmer has more issues with Engineers and Warriors than thieves. But everyone is manageable if you react quick enough.

    Actually, this isn't necessarily true.  Thieves are broken atm.  They are able to get off multiple abilities before being seen by their opponent, something that was not intended by the devs.  Anet calls it a "visual culling bug". Source

    Now the question is, should they still be able to do 20k damage in less then 6 seconds?  Should they be able to reset fights by stealthing and running away when targetted? 

    No, they should not.  And that is why thieves are getting nerfed com nov. 17 (or atleast tweaked).

    warrior can do well over that in 6 seconds if built right:) done it myself using a similar build to this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7NOvGobUzk

    Yep, warriors definitely have better spike damage than thieves, and even they can be managed.

    To TheHavok:

    Never had an issue with thieves not rendering after leaving invis. I am guessing thats more of a latency / hardware issue? Dozens of thieves have tried to do the dagger combo from stealth and failed, personally I have never seen this 'visual culling bug'.  The video from the 'source' clearly shows the thief becoming visible as soon as he hits the player.

  • moguy2moguy2 Saint Peters, MOPosts: 337Member
    Id make a thief then. Go do what they do to others. And yell while you are at your computer " HAHAHA I GOT YOU ! "
  • LifeEnderLifeEnder Plano, ILPosts: 45Member
    Dual axe warrior destroys 2 thieves at a time.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I kill them ll the time on my ranger.

    Frost trap, other traps drop them around, soon spot a their. Also have in spvp aoe frost on my pets (Imobilize or heals in WvW as so no point sending my pet in)

    They're a git for finishing you when stealthed though, but generally if I get the first hit, which I do with my range or traps, I win.

    I have a way harder time with mesmers, necro ain't fun either.


    Some classes beat others that's just the way it is, op plays elementalist, they nuke the hell out of people from range, the trade off is they don't like people in their face, which is why I swap to greatsword or sword and torch and get in their faces if I fight one one on one, as if I trade rdps with them I cone off worst.
  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Warhammer didn't have rogues

    It had witch hunters and witch elves neither of which were op.

    Now "mages" where op when backed by a buffing tank.

    With gw2 freeze is your weapon vs theifs, various necro skills, ranger frost trap etc..

    That is BS. Witch Elves were brought on to same level of WH but quite late after release. There were too many complaints about Witch Elves and even videos of them destroying heavy armor classes in matter of seconds. They were just way too over tuned. I have never seen so many complaining about any class being OP as i saw in Warhammer in regards of WE.

    Thiefs are not even in same league.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,124Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by TheHavok
    Originally posted by evilastro
    It's not that thieves are OP, it's that some classes are a bit underpowered and could do with a survivability buff - rangers, eles and necro particularly. Especially since none of them qualify as spike damage. My Mesmer has more issues with Engineers and Warriors than thieves. But everyone is manageable if you react quick enough.

    Actually, this isn't necessarily true.  Thieves are broken atm.  They are able to get off multiple abilities before being seen by their opponent, something that was not intended by the devs.  Anet calls it a "visual culling bug". Source

    Now the question is, should they still be able to do 20k damage in less then 6 seconds?  Should they be able to reset fights by stealthing and running away when targetted? 

    No, they should not.  And that is why thieves are getting nerfed com nov. 17 (or atleast tweaked).

    warrior can do well over that in 6 seconds if built right:) done it myself using a similar build to this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7NOvGobUzk

    Yep, warriors definitely have better spike damage than thieves, and even they can be managed.

    To TheHavok:

    Never had an issue with thieves not rendering after leaving invis. I am guessing thats more of a latency / hardware issue? Dozens of thieves have tried to do the dagger combo from stealth and failed, personally I have never seen this 'visual culling bug'.  The video from the 'source' clearly shows the thief becoming visible as soon as he hits the player.

    no its a know bug, they still keep in stealth for 2-3 secs, you can target then sooner if you know where they are or you tab and it target then, but other then that they can look perma stealth, annoying too when ou want to kill then and they run, but they will nerf thiefs, only who don't like to hear that is theifs, but they will just wait

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • WoopinWoopin LeedsPosts: 1,038Member Uncommon

    Thifes are not overpowered at all. 

    They can be dropped fast as hell if they stealth AOE, and why are you standing around for 3 to 6 seconds being smacked on you have utility skills and dodges use them.... 

    As a ranger I had loads of thiefs try and fail pretty damn hard. They jump out I dodge look at them and knockback then rappid shot they usually stealth by then I AOE or cast traps. If they are stupid and come out and try to carry on I just root them and rappid shot is usually up by then and they are done.

    The only time I die to a thief is when stuff is on cooldown but that is when fighting more than a few.

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    warrior can do well over that in 6 seconds if built right:) done it myself using a similar build to thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7NOvGobUzk

    Stun + burst DPS...

    Imbecile developers? :)

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon

    I play a thief and the developers have already confirmed that the burst is getting another nerf. 

     

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

     

    "Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate."

     

    The reason you get torn to bits in like two seconds is very simple and a lot of people do not understand how it works. Maybe someone went over it in this thread, but I don't have time to read it all right now. So here is the short version.

     

    1. Put on venoms (stun and damage) then start casting cloak and dagger.

    2. Steal to your target. Cloak and dagger will NOT be interupted as it should be by steal.

    3. You will land steal (mug) and a fraction of a second later the cloak and dagger you started will go off.

    4. Now you are invisible, your target is stunned by venoms and you can launch into a massive backstab attack (with 100% crit chance from traits) a second later.

    5. Congrats you just did 10-20k damage in about 2 seconds. 

     

    Steal SHOULD interupt the cast for cloak and dagger, but it does not. So first step is to fix this bug, then that rotation is no longer valid. 

     

    PS I use shortbow and dual pistols on my thief. I win plenty of fights, but I do not blow anyone up (with gear or a brain) in 2 seconds. 

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    I have a theif I play in WvWvW and SPVP and yes It is OP, if I face 100 people only 2 or 3 knows how to deal with a theif.

    So killing 97 people and die 3 times is a good trade off  :)

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,098Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Goromhir

    They should have kept this class out of GW2 and all was good, but no they had to implement the super destroyer class that kills any other class in a few seconds before a player can react.

    warhammer and WoW already had OPed Rogues and lost many players because of them. RIFT the same problem.

    Why did they put THIEFs into GW2 and made them so strong that they kill every other class in no time ? 

    Stealth > Stun > boom boom boom = dead player in 2-5 seconds never mind if the target is a Warrior, Caster or whatever...

    in addition to the annoying high damage they can stealth as often as they want to which makes them stupid hard to kill. 

     

    Why the heck did ArenaNet make Thiefs almost Instant killers ?? Wasnt there a beta test period to tune them down ???

     

    This game needs alot balance work quick before to many people leave it......................................

    1.  All classes are capable of nuking if specced correctly, and all classes are squishy if specced incorrectly.  The thief class is only one of the classes this applies to.

    2.  The proper buffs and control skills can negate the strategy you just described.  For example, a Guardian can grant themselves and their allies an aegis that completely blocks one attack and any allies within an area affected by Guardian's Hallowed Ground is immune to stuns.  Another example would be a mesmer's decoy that stealths them and forces the theif to attack an illusion, and their mantras do stuff like break stuns and stun their enemies.  Yet another example is the necromancer's wells, which prevent thiefs from getting within melee distance to use their stuns, and the necromancer's death shroud, which pretty much doubles their health.  In other words, THERE ARE PLENTY OF WAYS TO COUNTER YOUR SO CALLED ULTIMATE THIEF STRATEGY.

    3.  Plenty of other classes can stealth, and they can do it as often as the thief.  Some, like the Mesmer, can even stealth multiple allies and not just themselves.

    4.  The game is fairly balanced (some people are complaining about Guardians being nerfed, but I play one and I don't see what they are complaining about), but if you feel like leaving, go ahead.  More fun for the rest of us.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    I play a thief and the developers have already confirmed that the burst is getting another nerf. 

     

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

     

    "Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate."

     

    The reason you get torn to bits in like two seconds is very simple and a lot of people do not understand how it works. Maybe someone went over it in this thread, but I don't have time to read it all right now. So here is the short version.

     

    1. Put on venoms (stun and damage) then start casting cloak and dagger.

    2. Steal to your target. Cloak and dagger will NOT be interupted as it should be by steal.

    3. You will land steal (mug) and a fraction of a second later the cloak and dagger you started will go off.

    4. Now you are invisible, your target is stunned by venoms and you can launch into a massive backstab attack (with 100% crit chance from traits) a second later.

    5. Congrats you just did 10-20k damage in about 2 seconds. 

     

    Steal SHOULD interupt the cast for cloak and dagger, but it does not. So first step is to fix this bug, then that rotation is no longer valid. 

     

    PS I use shortbow and dual pistols on my thief. I win plenty of fights, but I do not blow anyone up (with gear or a brain) in 2 seconds. 

    They will nerf some parts of the class and fix others, guess what? People will find a new way to make others cry. rinse repeat.

     

    The CnD shouldn't be interrupted as this is how it has been both in other classes in GW2 and in GW1, its how its made and a design choice.

    Executioner is better than hidden killer for spiking people down, the extra 20% damage under 50% is better to finish them off.

    10-20k? 10k sure but several classes area capable of pushing out such damage. On a player with same gear and at least specced A BIT in toughness you wont hit for such amounts. Also for the venom there is stun breakers, same as there is for 100b warriors and other classes who relies on such spikes. Once the initial burst is over and the thief has exhausted his resources he is easy meat.

    The issue with thieves is how they are built, the initiative system is quite stupid imo as it's hard to balance with no cooldowns and good spike gear available in the game further increased in effectiveness by traits.

     

    I play my thief with SB mainly and then for HS 'leaprunning' I have D/D but considering switching it for something else.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    I play a thief and the developers have already confirmed that the burst is getting another nerf. 

     

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

     

    "Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate."

     

    The reason you get torn to bits in like two seconds is very simple and a lot of people do not understand how it works. Maybe someone went over it in this thread, but I don't have time to read it all right now. So here is the short version.

     

    1. Put on venoms (stun and damage) then start casting cloak and dagger.

    2. Steal to your target. Cloak and dagger will NOT be interupted as it should be by steal.

    3. You will land steal (mug) and a fraction of a second later the cloak and dagger you started will go off.

    4. Now you are invisible, your target is stunned by venoms and you can launch into a massive backstab attack (with 100% crit chance from traits) a second later.

    5. Congrats you just did 10-20k damage in about 2 seconds. 

     

    Steal SHOULD interupt the cast for cloak and dagger, but it does not. So first step is to fix this bug, then that rotation is no longer valid. 

     

    PS I use shortbow and dual pistols on my thief. I win plenty of fights, but I do not blow anyone up (with gear or a brain) in 2 seconds. 

    They will nerf some parts of the class and fix others, guess what? People will find a new way to make others cry. rinse repeat.

     

    The CnD shouldn't be interrupted as this is how it has been both in other classes in GW2 and in GW1, its how its made and a design choice.

    Executioner is better than hidden killer for spiking people down, the extra 20% damage under 50% is better to finish them off.

    10-20k? 10k sure but several classes area capable of pushing out such damage. On a player with same gear and at least specced A BIT in toughness you wont hit for such amounts. Also for the venom there is stun breakers, same as there is for 100b warriors and other classes who relies on such spikes. Once the initial burst is over and the thief has exhausted his resources he is easy meat.

    The issue with thieves is how they are built, the initiative system is quite stupid imo as it's hard to balance with no cooldowns and good spike gear available in the game further increased in effectiveness by traits.

     

    I play my thief with SB mainly and then for HS 'leaprunning' I have D/D but considering switching it for something else.

    My highest stat is Toughness. I weigh in around 2,225 toughness and those specs can still rip me into two pieces with the opener. So a "bit" of toughness is not going to cut it. I have also run max vitality, max toughness, max survivability spec guardians against these kinda thieves in spvp and wvw. It is still a struggle to survive the burst.

     

    At the end of the day.. there is obviously issues and this guy right here knows it.

     

     

    Thankfully... I saw this coming weeks ago. So I have geared, traited and practiced with the non fotm junk. I'm ready for it. Sorry that so many others have the blinders on. 

     

    Edit -

     

    Also.. no thief is easy meat after they have burnt an opener. Depending on what secondary weapon set and what utility skills they are carrying around.. They have a number of ways of reseting fights. Stealth, stealth fields, shadow step, thieves guild (elite). Many thieves also have skills that refund intiative, there is one based on crits, one based on being in stealth, one that procs 2 intiative per 10 secs, one that gives 4 intiative when healing. We are not nullfied magically after the opener is done. 

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    I play a thief and the developers have already confirmed that the burst is getting another nerf. 

     

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/2

     

    "Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate."

     

    The reason you get torn to bits in like two seconds is very simple and a lot of people do not understand how it works. Maybe someone went over it in this thread, but I don't have time to read it all right now. So here is the short version.

     

    1. Put on venoms (stun and damage) then start casting cloak and dagger.

    2. Steal to your target. Cloak and dagger will NOT be interupted as it should be by steal.

    3. You will land steal (mug) and a fraction of a second later the cloak and dagger you started will go off.

    4. Now you are invisible, your target is stunned by venoms and you can launch into a massive backstab attack (with 100% crit chance from traits) a second later.

    5. Congrats you just did 10-20k damage in about 2 seconds. 

     

    Steal SHOULD interupt the cast for cloak and dagger, but it does not. So first step is to fix this bug, then that rotation is no longer valid. 

     

    PS I use shortbow and dual pistols on my thief. I win plenty of fights, but I do not blow anyone up (with gear or a brain) in 2 seconds. 

    They will nerf some parts of the class and fix others, guess what? People will find a new way to make others cry. rinse repeat.

     

    The CnD shouldn't be interrupted as this is how it has been both in other classes in GW2 and in GW1, its how its made and a design choice.

    Executioner is better than hidden killer for spiking people down, the extra 20% damage under 50% is better to finish them off.

    10-20k? 10k sure but several classes area capable of pushing out such damage. On a player with same gear and at least specced A BIT in toughness you wont hit for such amounts. Also for the venom there is stun breakers, same as there is for 100b warriors and other classes who relies on such spikes. Once the initial burst is over and the thief has exhausted his resources he is easy meat.

    The issue with thieves is how they are built, the initiative system is quite stupid imo as it's hard to balance with no cooldowns and good spike gear available in the game further increased in effectiveness by traits.

     

    I play my thief with SB mainly and then for HS 'leaprunning' I have D/D but considering switching it for something else.

    My highest stat is Toughness. I weigh in around 2,225 toughness and those specs can still rip me into two pieces with the opener. So a "bit" of toughness is not going to cut it. I have also run max vitality, max toughness, max survivability spec guardiansagainst these kinda thieves in spvp and wvw. It is still a struggle to survive the burst.

     

    At the end of the day.. there is obviously issues and this guy right here knows it.

     

     

    Thankfully... I saw this coming weeks ago. So I have geared, traited and practiced with the non fotm junk. I'm ready for it. Sorry that so many others have the blinders on. 

     

    Edit -

     

    Also.. no thief is easy meat after they have burnt an opener. Depending on what secondary weapon set and what utility skills they are carrying around.. They have a number of ways of reseting fights. Stealth, stealth fields, shadow step, thieves guild (elite). Many thieves also have skills that refund intiative, there is one based on crits, one based on being in stealth, one built into a heal, one that procs 2 intiative per 10 secs, one that gives 4 intiative when healing. We are not nullfied magically after the opener is done. 

    A backstab build will have burnt the signet and elite on getting to the enemy and making them rock so no thieves guild unless its actually not the backstab build which is popular atm.

    Actually I ran with a condition build before but seeing how useless it was in general with condition I just decided to start over with pow/prec/cdmg. Imo Anet didn't do enough testing prior to release.

    Tbh I don't see how backstab is more OP than other classes/skills that does the same thing: stun/knockdown + kill.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6VrSvyuHg

     

    EDIT: No need to post the link to the post and then post the image, I saw it the first time around.

  • VolenibbletsVolenibblets London, LAPosts: 212Member Uncommon
    Roll a mesmer...endless fun watching 99% of thieves flail about like spinning fools chasing illusions as you lay down more and more decoys and slap them silly till they're face down. Admittedly they are a pain in the rectum on any other class...besides guardians ofc.     
  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volenibblets
    Roll a mesmer...endless fun watching 99% of thieves flail about like spinning fools chasing illusions as you lay down more and more decoys and slap them silly till they're face down. Admittedly they are a pain in the rectum on any other class...besides guardians ofc.     

    Thats one of the main reasons I stopped using the silly burst builds. Mezmers do not have it so easy when I'm bouncing around trick arrow (with fire signet) and killing all their copies. Then throwing out thieves guild and then switching to pistol/pistol for burst after the clones are on CD. 

     

  • timeraidertimeraider BredaPosts: 568Member Uncommon

    *cough* L2P *cough*

     

    meh, any profession so far can be build anti-thief. Go for alot of toughness, minimal 1-2 escape skills and focus on either areadmg or conditions.

    If you say like "i dont want to change my build" .. sure, but every build has it counters and unless you change to counter thieves .. well, nothing can be changed. With an anti-thief build you will be weaker against certain other professions though..

     

    yust make sure the profession that counters you is the underpowered one :P

    Main games: Heroes of the Storm, Starcraft 2, Brawlhalla
    Waiting for: Overwatch

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member
    Originally posted by Channce
    Originally posted by Tiller
    Learn to play and stop complaining...I've been killed plenty times by other classes, and done plenty. To be honest thief is like paper if you drop the right attack on them.  Nerf herders like you are what ruin games.

    what a dumb thing to say, people who spew this unique line (lol) are typically the loudest whiners and worse ppl in a mmo.

    Thing is after people worked hard for their gear to spec their character for what is the only really viable build on a char its not very weird they defend it. Anet should have had better testing done so things like this didnt get discovered so late. However I do not think that Thiefs are that OP it's rather that some classes are lacking or needs to have bugs fixed until it can be measured in a good way. Just look at the state of engineer, necro and ranger. While engineer has a role in spvp it has several kits that arent very used and ranger + necro are just plain fucked atm. Fact is if you check spvp; thiefs aren't as popular as many other classes in higher ranks as for example guardians and engineers. This was all posted by a guy who made extensive testing and wrote about it on the official forum if you wish to read about it.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    instant invisibility has and always will be OP.
  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    instant invisibility has and always will be OP.

    Try playing thief. The invis isn't an issue rather the bug which makes you not go visible for the enemy for quite some time.

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