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To me DAoC was a damn fun game... but it is more to teh end of Theme Park since (again in my opinion) any game that gives you 'return 10 rat tail' types of quests is a Theme Park no matter how much paint you put on it.
Originally posted by mlauzon Originally posted by ShakyMo Daoc is a themepark as is everquestThey just aren't wow clones (obviously)
There is no such thing as a WoW-clone, all MMORPGs are in fact clones of the first: Meridian 59!
Um, UO was nothing like Meridian 59. lol.
Themepark, obviously. It was all about combat, but it was before themeparks had so much to do with questing.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I guess themepark.. But it was old school.. so no quests or anything. mostly group grinding.
You had a house that you could decorate and craft in. Plus you could go get trophies and taxadermy from mobs you killed. And guilds could hold keeps and upgrade them. So it had some sandboxy features to it.
Like your sig (poster above me) we think alike it seems
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
DAoC was a water park, zoo and wax museum mixed with a little circus.
Originally posted by Creslin321 It was a themepark. The only folks who will think it is a sandbox probably never played a sandbox, and think that EQ1 was a sandbox.
Exactly. I just wish it were easier to describe what makes a game a sandbox, for people who seem totally confused by the concept. It is tricky to put into words.
Originally posted by Vhaln Originally posted by Creslin321 It was a themepark. The only folks who will think it is a sandbox probably never played a sandbox, and think that EQ1 was a sandbox.
it is tricky to put into words because there is no one definition for the word that is agreed upon.
there is no one source we can refer to people, such as the dictionary. people write up lists and paragraphs trying to define a word that in the end, their lists and paragraphs are going to exclude some games that are considered sandboxes or include others which clearly are not.
overgeneralized crap like "pvp = sandbox" or "quests = themepark" serve only to confuse the issue by labeling games like WOW as sandboxes or EVE online as a themepark.
the crux of the matter is though, with a system as complex and involved as an entire MMO, a simple one-dimensional term like themepark or sandbox is simply never going to describe the game in its entirety and carry over from game to game. this is what is known as overgeneralizing. there are far too many possible systems and combinations of systems possible in MMOs to arrive at an actual technical definition that will appease everyone across the spectrum of games.
it is not too unlike labeling people. it may be fine colloquially but as soon as we put any degree of scrutiny to the practice you find the labels and how they fit across the spectrum of personalities in the world breaks down.
in the end. it is useless to argue which games are themepark and sandbox. the terms are fine colloquially but argument over precise definition is going to end up fruitless and unagreeable in most every venture.
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Doesnt matter if you agree or disagree. I could say soemthing like " I Think the Moon is made of Gouda Cheese" Doesnt make it right even if I believe.
Its fine to have your own narrow definition within the strata of the game, thats cool but it doesnt change the overall defintion.
Its a very simple and straight forward defintion defined by one term. Linearity!
Using Wikipedia as the definitive source on this discussion is rather humorous. Sorry but it is a subjective discussion which is self evident in this thread. Just because you happen to agree with the definitions you posted does not make them undisputed facts.
Less arrogance and more objectivity might do you some good.
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Themepark. I don't buy into the new marketing definition of sandbox.
My theme song.
Sandbox: a game where the gameplay is driven by the players (no lines to be followed) and players actions directly afects enviroment and endgame
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Originally posted by Creslin321 It was a themepark. The only folks who will think it is a sandbox probably never played a sandbox, and think that EQ1 was a sandbox. EDIT: You know, it may be more accurate to say that when DAoC was released and when it was popular, it was definitely a themepark. Nowadays though, people may consider it to be a sandbox. But this has nothing to do with changes in the game and everything to do with people expecting more linear experiences from MMORPGs.
+1 Well said, Creslin.
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Daoc was all the time a themepark with 3 realm pvp.
PVE was much a grind as quests were scarce and bad in the vanilla days and nobody did bother with questing beside the "Epic" one.The World was predefined an no player action ever left "marks" in the world.It had some crafting economy with extreme boring gameplay mostly done by bots but the stuff was needfull.More Questing and instanced Housing came with later Expansions and Additions.
PVP was an addition to the PVE-themepark that would fit into both worlds and does not define Daoc as sandbox or themepark but as 3 faction pvp game.
Big Sandbox-MMOs be EVE, Ultima and SWG.Rich economy, freedom in gameplay, skillbased, player actions change and shape the persistent gameworld.
The best parts of each Sandbox and Themepark would make great long lasting "Virtual World Simulators".Which in the 90s and early 2000s many expected mmorpgs would become until the Big Kahuna stranded the mmo business on the sandy beach.
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Originally posted by Thorqemada Daoc was all the time a themepark with 3 realm pvp. PVE was much a grind as quests were scarce and bad in the vanilla days and nobody did bother with questing beside the "Epic" one. The World was predefined an no player action ever left "marks" in the world. It had some crafting economy with extreme boring gameplay mostly done by bots but the stuff was needfull. More Questing and instanced Housing came with later Expansions and Additions. PVP was an addition to the PVE-themepark that would fit into both worlds and does not define Daoc as sandbox or themepark but as 3 faction pvp game. Big Sandbox-MMOs be EVE, Ultima and SWG. Rich economy, freedom in gameplay, skillbased, player actions change and shape the persistent gameworld. The best parts of each Sandbox and Themepark would make great long lasting "Virtual World Simulators". Which in the 90s and early 2000s many expected mmorpgs would become until the Big Kahuna stranded the mmo business on the sandy beach.
I really don't get why people believe a themepark game becomes sandbox just becouse of adding lots of fluff.
Building houses on 3000 possible ways, underwater fighting, flying, diverse character look, huge world with million of small interactive details, etc etc, do not make a game sandbox.
Get this in your thick skulls. A real sandbox will always have at least partial "full loot" and "no safe zone" system.
Just so you get a real meaning to social interaction; politics, etc.
It`s difficult to associate DaoC with themepark, because than you only can think of WoW. It`s was a themepark game but nowhere near has WoW. You had no map direction and a very limited amount of quest ( No exclamation point either) . You had zone with monster of different level but no indicator telling you that . You could get lost easily when you started to explore.
So it`s felt more open than WoW or GW2 because it`s was left to the player to discover the world and the dungeons You could get lost in daoc and dying etc had much more impact than most modern MMORPG.
Level has nothing to do with sandboxes (and classe also) . In Uo you were also limited by the 7 skill you picked. Has a newbies you could not venture into Shame and expect to kill any elemental. So you was restricted by your power level just like DAOC or everquest by your level.
A Fisher alone in the Ocean ? Possible. Until a giant octopus spawned in a fishnet and pwned your ass. Even if you were a trader in UO , you had to possess combat skill. GTA4 is also a sandbox game. It`s simply mean a open world with seamless interconnection. You`re just limited by your character. Killing rat has a grandmaster Swordman did not give you much benefit.
The whole idea behind game such has Everquest and DAOC was to combat griefing. Well in daoc plenty of griefing was to be fund. Like Ninja-Looting etc. WoW came with the idea of Bind on pick-up and carebears system
The problem I see is .. Themepark is associated with carebear and Daoc was anything but Carebears.
Originally posted by punkrock There was no quest reallty in the old DAOC*unless you ask a guard but few knew of those lol* I would say a sandbox in some ways, but not really a theme park becouse there was no line to follow.
lol, which daoc did you play? sure there were quests, lots of them.
themepark. no sandbox.
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As I measure MMO's, DAOC was an early themepark, but with heavy virtual world elements. The player progression experience was definitely directed and there was no real player metagame, you played with the tools the Devs gave you.
Was still a damn fine MMORPG and provided a unique experience not likely to be repeated.
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Originally posted by Wicoa Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party. In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people. You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation. Let me know what you think.
It was NOT EITHER.
It was a "SandPark" like EQ was. It was neither a Sandbox or Themepark. Calling either a Themepark is pretty much a blatant lie no matter how you look at it. Sure, i'd love to call it a Sandbox, but i'd be lieing to you. Similarly, anyone calling it a themepark have no idea what a themepark even is to begin with, or never played DAOC pre-Lab of Minotaur.
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I would say "Sandpark" for both EQ1 and Daoc as well..
they both had elements of both themeparks and sandboxes..
probably why they were so good ; )
DAOC had almost none of that at launch...
I think people forget how long some of these games have been around and what was added to them years after release.
- Housing was a major patch long after release
- RvR didn't really work for a long time. lots of issues with siege equipment (which didn't really work for along time) along with claiming/attacking keeps and such
DAOC was awesome and I loved and played the crap out of it back in day... Just reminding people it took a long time to become what most remember it for.
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Originally posted by Fishu It`s difficult to associate DaoC with themepark, because than you only can think of WoW.
Not everyone has this problem. It was a themepark in the tradition of EverQuest and the themepark MUDs that came before it. The only thing that set it apart was the RvR, but that didn't make it any less of a themepark. There was basically nothing sanbox-like about DAOC at all.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Themepark it had a leveling game, then it had an endgame. It's just its endgame was very different to most themeparks.
A themepark implies two things
a) that the experience is on rails
b) that it's safe and all well explained
These were not true of DAoC. Classes were totally open ended. There were no guided leveling paths. There was a death penalty.
There were very few quests, too.