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Why permadeath can't work.

neosapienceneosapience Reno, NVMember Posts: 164
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.
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Comments

  • XasapisXasapis VolosMember Posts: 5,512 Uncommon

    Have you actually read about the system implemented in this game? If you read it, you'll realise that it has a lot of similarities with the way EVE online is handling deaths.

    From my understanding everyone starts with 96% to recover their character in some form (ghost, whatever). So in this state your character is like insured from perma-death by that percentage. The percentage drops the more you die and I'm sure there are ways to raise it back to max (cash shop being one).

     

    It all comes down to how easy it is to level (or whatever progression system they are using), how the inheritance is handled if a perma-death does occur and generally how the system is build around the real possibility of having to start over. Generally speaking, a perma death wouldn't hurt that much, even in games that are not really built for that (GW2 for example. it's ludicrous easy to max level and gear).

  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghMember Posts: 1,019 Uncommon
    Originally posted by neosapience
    Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

    For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

    Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

    You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

    I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

    Underlined and Italics.

    If you feel that way then why bother even trying to play a permadeath game? There are many games that don't have this feature available. This game is designed to have permadeath, it doesn't care how you feel about that.

    image
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonMember Posts: 2,751 Common
    Originally posted by neosapience
    Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.
    <SNIP>

    Which is why people should realise that not every game is aimed at every gamer. If a specific crowd enjoy permadeath, then they play permadeath games. If people don't, well they don't.

     

    "People" may well be tired of zero risk games, and the solution isn't to go the exact opposite. But who said any game incorporating permadeath was trying to be a "solution" for the general gaming public? They are instead merely creating a game for a specific audience who enjoy those mechanics.

     

    It's like the whole FFA pvp debate again. Everyone realises it's not what "everyone" wants, but it is what some gamers want, and those gamers are who said games are being made for.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainMember Posts: 1,376
    Originally posted by neosapience
    Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

    For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

    Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

    You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

    I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

    The "perma" in permadeath in WO is greatly exeggerated. You have two chances at a revive and a percentage chance of survival in accordance to your soul-level and items you sacrifice.

    But nevermind that, its just a quick correction.

     

    The problem is, you (and many others) see WO as a "traditional" MMORPG or RPG.

    However, its a MMORoguelike (like Realm Of The Mad God, also permadeath, but far more fast-paced).

    Its blending RPG elements with roguelike mechanics, which isn't surprising, since the oldskool RPG games like the Gold Box games did exactly that.

    Roguelikes live and die by permadeath mechanics, its their essence, their core. Its where the fun comes from for the people that play them. Its the no-win dick-moves the game pulls on you (instadeath traps, vastly overleveled mobs, etc) that make the game fun.

    Roguelikes need a different mindset to play than RPGs. You have to abandon your feelings of character progression and the gratification it evokes. Roguelikes are about beating the -game-, overcomming it, not having an amazing character.

    Its about crafting a unique and amazing adventure and narrative of your character, not instant gratification for success.

    Its why I play FTL, NeoScavenger and DoD.

    I even feel that WO made it too much newskool with their percentage survival mechanics, but its still a better and fairer system that I saw from other hybrids.

    tldr: Disconnects are part of the roguelike mindset and just another random dick move the game can pull on you, deal with it.

     

    image
  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAMember Posts: 2,646

    I'm more a fan of the death system in EQ1.  Specifically, In PVE, if a player dies, they suffer a XP penalty, and if resurrected they can only regain some of that lost experience.  Anything being carried must be reclaimed by returning to your corpse and looting.

     

    For PVP, a defeated player should lose nothing except their dignity, perhaps respawning far away, and having a debuff for being defeated.

     

    As for grinding lower content, that is pretty much the theme of the original Wizardry classics.  Players needed to be superior to mobs, or risk becoming permanently dead (via an irrevisible condition, like being eradicated, disintegrated, stoned, or petrified, etc).  If you were much higher level than a Lich, for example, they couldn't drain you (or it was significantly unlikely).  High Sorcerer's couldn't disintegrate you, etc.  Not to mention if you were high level you would get the initiative often.

    The Wizardry I remember though let surviving characters resurrect the dead ones.  An occasional death was unavoidable.  A royal screwup involving a complete party wipe would mean pemadeath, with all items on all characters gone.  This really only happened if you went too far in, and encountered stuff you couldn't possibly handle.  Each character had an opportunity to "Run" during their turn.  Permadeath was possible, but if played well, it could be avoided.  Even if one character managed to successfully  "Run" then they would be able to drag all the dead party members back to the temple for healing.

     

    The Wizardry classics handled permadeath well, but that was in an age of using strategy in RPG games.  As an MMORPG with permadeath, I'm not too excited.  But I'm not familiar yet with their entire mechanics and how often deaths occur.  Can a player be griefed by being ditched by their entire group mid-fight?  How will PVP deaths work?

     

    F2P games with a cash shop to cheat death is a bit of a turn off as well.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • TorgenTorgen MoenchengladbachMember Posts: 154

    This is why permadeath is working: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/53023/page/10#p685249

     

    This guy just lost his lvl 79 HC character and stays totally calm, even in the stream that he linked in the thread. You just have to take a different approach to the game and not get too emotionally linked to your char and just see it as a challenge. I know it works and I know I dont really like it ;)

  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLMember Posts: 330 Uncommon
    It's not really perma-death. When you die, you get two chances to rez before you are erased. The only kind of lag I get anymore is related to graphics so you don't have to be paranoid about that. Server lag is something no one but the companies can deal with. Unless they're incompetent like Nexon is with Mabinogi, you probably won't be seeing any of that either.
  • JakdstripperJakdstripper British Columbia, CanadaMember Posts: 2,178 Uncommon
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?
  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainMember Posts: 1,376
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    yes

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember Posts: 22,781 Epic
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    The difference being in your example permadeath is 100% assured, and in the Wizardry scenario it's a gamble, with players trying to beat the house, while everyone else does the same.

    Different mindset completely.

    "Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007! 

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORMember Posts: 464
    "Why permadeath doesn't work for me," is what this should be titled. There are plenty of hardcore gamers out there like myself that think permadeath is freakin sweet. 
  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownMember Posts: 3,452 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    Except the games are not designed around permadeath, a game without a death penalty is designed so you dying is not a big thing and so is far more common. A permadeath game needs to be designed that way from the floor up not tagged on to a different mechanic.

    I am guessing you have never ever played a permadeath game.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonMember Posts: 2,751 Common
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    yes

    no

     

    Do you think people doing extreme sports should do them in complete safety and then just kill themselves afterwards if they make a balls up of it? Yeah, right o.

     

    The whole "just wipe your toon dude" argument is beyond lolworthy.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainMember Posts: 1,376
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    yes

    no

     

    Do you think people doing extreme sports should do them in complete safety and then just kill themselves afterwards if they make a balls up of it? Yeah, right o.

     

    The whole "just wipe your toon dude" argument is beyond lolworthy.

    your sarcasm detector is broken.

    image
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonMember Posts: 2,751 Common
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
     

     

    your sarcasm detector is broken.

    Probably just needs new batteries.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityMember Posts: 1,037 Uncommon


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Except the games are not designed around permadeath, a game without a death penalty is designed so you dying is not a big thing and so is far more common. A permadeath game needs to be designed that way from the floor up not tagged on to a different mechanic.I am guessing you have never ever played a permadeath game.

    Exactly. Lots of people hear the word "permadeath" and immediately visualize trying to do a WoW raid or something and losing their character with hundreds of days /played worth of l00t if they stand in the fire.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Banquetto
      Originally posted by RefMinor
    Except the games are not designed around permadeath, a game without a death penalty is designed so you dying is not a big thing and so is far more common. A permadeath game needs to be designed that way from the floor up not tagged on to a different mechanic.
      I am guessing you have never ever played a permadeath game.

     

    Exactly. Lots of people hear the word "permadeath" and immediately visualize trying to do a WoW raid or something and losing their character with hundreds of days /played worth of l00t if they stand in the fire.

    ^ also from the sound of it you will save some progression on your "soul" as in account wide.. but a game designed around this concept will be very differn't from a game without it. Aside from the so so graphics(from what I have seen) game does sound pretty interesting..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 11,155 Rare

    There is a really big factor that proves perma death is not a good idea.it encourages large groups to protect each other.This can lead to a massive server wipe by one large faction/group/guild.

    often i see people trying to make an excuse for it,however they are not looking at it realistically.When you mention the RUSH,is there a rush if one player is say using example ...level 50 and the other guy is level 5?There is no rush there,more so an obvious outcome that would make pvp literally a waste of time.

    Or how about a gorup of 30 friends attacking 15,they could most likely wipe all 15 sending them packing back to noob status,while those 30 continue to further themselves from the server level/skill gap.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • tazarconantazarconan athensMember Posts: 1,013
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper
    i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?

    Sure point is not every game could just have permadeath fitted in. You need to have a game made from scratch and build everything around it.Wow for example as it was/is couldnt have permadeath. Many other games also.  If u read and get informed how permadeath is being implemented in WO u ll get the picture....

  • tazarconantazarconan athensMember Posts: 1,013
    Originally posted by Wizardry
    There is a really big factor that proves perma death is not a good idea.it encourages large groups to protect each other.This can lead to a massive server wipe by one large faction/group/guild. often i see people trying to make an excuse for it,however they are not looking at it realistically.When you mention the RUSH,is there a rush if one player is say using example ...level 50 and the other guy is level 5?There is no rush there,more so an obvious outcome that would make pvp literally a waste of time. Or how about a gorup of 30 friends attacking 15,they could most likely wipe all 15 sending them packing back to noob status,while those 30 continue to further themselves from the server level/skill gap.

    Those things exactly u describe ,are elements missing from current mmo scene. First of all the what could possiblt happen every time u login makes the game way more intresting from any other mmorpg. Secondly all the things u describe bring all players to a whole new interactivity and sociallity level. U have friends that your own avatar's life will be in their hands and theirs on u (dungeon fighting as groups,guild runs,friends u make inside the game..etc etc etc.These will not be friendships for the shake of friendships.

    So u have have immersion,real interactivity and social lvl in good doses in this game.Good and bad things could happen.Bring it on !!!!

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by tazarconan
    Originally posted by Wizardry
    There is a really big factor that proves perma death is not a good idea.it encourages large groups to protect each other.This can lead to a massive server wipe by one large faction/group/guild. often i see people trying to make an excuse for it,however they are not looking at it realistically.When you mention the RUSH,is there a rush if one player is say using example ...level 50 and the other guy is level 5?There is no rush there,more so an obvious outcome that would make pvp literally a waste of time. Or how about a gorup of 30 friends attacking 15,they could most likely wipe all 15 sending them packing back to noob status,while those 30 continue to further themselves from the server level/skill gap.

    Those things exactly u describe ,are elements missing from current mmo scene. First of all the what could possiblt happen every time u login makes the game way more intresting from any other mmorpg. Secondly all the things u describe bring all players to a whole new interactivity and sociallity level. U have friends that your own avatar's life will be in their hands and theirs on u (dungeon fighting as groups,guild runs,friends u make inside the game..etc etc etc.These will not be friendships for the shake of friendships.

    So u have have immersion,real interactivity and social lvl in good doses in this game.Good and bad things could happen.Bring it on !!!!

    that and with the bounty/criminal systems you could have everyone else put bountys on all these guys heads.. you think they will all play together at all times? i say no and then you work together and take them out

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • VidirVidir GothenburgMember Posts: 956 Uncommon
    Originally posted by neosapience
    Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

    For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

    Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

    You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

    I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

     Hm, permadeath. That sounds interesting but most of the players wishing this as a feature in games have no clue what perma death is. Well lets say next game comes with perma death,maybe everquest next or guildwars 2 maybe rift 4.

    If you have permadeath that means if you die in the game   it is game over for you, you may never more play this game,there is no second chance if you die. That is death as in rl no second chanse if you die therfore permadeath.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Vidir
     

     Hm, permadeath. That sounds interesting but most of the players wishing this as a feature in games have no clue what perma death is. Well lets say next game comes with perma death,maybe everquest next or guildwars 2 maybe rift 4.

    If you have permadeath that means if you die in the game   it is game over for you, you may never more play this game,there is no second chance if you die. That is death as in rl no second chanse if you die therfore permadeath.

    no one in their right mind thinks that what permadeath in a game means...

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • TalemireTalemire Clearwater, FLMember Posts: 737 Uncommon

    Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

    So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

    ------------------------------
    MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Talemire
    Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game. So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

    this sort of goes back to the darkfall pve server or gw2 pvp server.. when an entire games ruleset including xp, drops, enemies, and all systems are based off a main concept it doesn't make much sense to make another server that destroys all that and completely changes the game you are making.. not only does that server not follow the dev's vision it also would make a huge issue with supporting a server and all aspects of it.. It wouldn't be as simple as just turning off permadeath on one server and have it on in another

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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