Well, Bill, you're quite late to the party, welcome anyway.
So, the Problem No One's Talking about? Looks like you never read you own forums. We, the regular posters here, are talking about the very same thing since years. You would have no problems to find 1000s of posts telling you so. The Problem No One's Talking about? Smedley from SOE talks about it, Funcom makes noises in the same general direction, Cryptic as well - it wasn't that no one talked about the problem - it was that no one at MMORPG.com wanted to hear anything about it. You guys rather prefer to praise the longevity of these same games ... wasn't it you who rewarded GW2 with a 9 for longevity a few weeks ago?
You, sir, win the internetz.
Worms from can have been removed they have. Put them back in box they cannot.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Oh, thank god Bill, for going somewhere else entirely. The title's like an intro for one of those commercials.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by colddog04 Just for the record, I am also pro-features. I thought everyone was.
Gamers have been conned into thinking million-dollar cut scenes and one-time content were what we really wanted.
Now, where are all the devs who come here to scan these articles?
Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I agree with this. Some other points is that MMO companies should be realistic about game design. An MMO doesn't need millions of players to be successful. Most servers by popular standards house 3-4 thousand players at a time. They can make design risks and build a niche core within themselves.
That's the problem I've seen. Many MMO's these days are afraid to jump into uncharted waters (pun, intended). They haven't tried to push theirselves because they belive an MMO requires an extensive sum of money to develop; they are falling into AAA category that doesn't need to be brought.
That's the problem I've seen. Many MMO's these days are afraid to jump into uncharted waters (pun, intended). They haven't tried to push theirselves because they belive an MMO requires an extensive sum of money to develop; they are falling into AAA category that doesn't need to be brought.
But the thing is, those waters have already been charted and sailed successfully. There's plenty of gaming systems out there ready to be reborn and improved upon.
UO, SWG, EQ, DAoC, etc. etc. There are wonderful systems in those titles alone that could easily be improved upon.
It's up to us, the gamers, as to where the future of MMO development takes us. Do we continue paying for subpar games designed around box sales or do we say enough is enough and DEMAND developers to take notice?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Ever since Smedley talked about sand box elements and then clearly took EQ into that direction, this has been just about the major topic of the day. I've been preaching it for years amongst the many others here chatting over fundamental flaws of themepark games. Some of the largest threads over the last few months have been about the whole themepark/sandbox debate. Simply look over my post history (from a modest post count person) and see the amount of thread content I've posted in on this very subject. I'd say this topic is the fundamental theme (outside if individual game subjects) on these boards and others for months which leads to the massive coverage of upcoming sandbox games and the obvious change in mmo design direction by both indie and AAA companies.
Now let's look at the title of this articile: "The Problem No One's Talking About". Perhaps it should be changed to: "The Problem No One's Talking About: Short Term Memory Loss".
Well, Bill, you're quite late to the party, welcome anyway.
Yeah, i was thinking "You guys only figured this out now?" all the way while reading the article .
Regardless, i completly agree Bill. I don't hate story, questing, dungeons, cutscenes, voice-overs, etc at all (expect "personal" stories and voiced pc's). I think they bring good things to the game and give it greater quality. It's developers abusing them and turning them into the main focus of the entire game by 90% that angers. Once you're finished with it, it's over and there's nothing left to achive and play.
More "systems" and "non ending" activities are necessary and fortunatly, it seems quite a few devs are figuring this out. Let's hope mmorpgs like these are coming in the future.
I consider myself the typical mmo gamer, one that plays for one or two months. In the past, you actually had more GOOD options, CoH, DAoC, EQ, or WoW. Now that all of those games are aged and one is going to be closing, the real options for mmorpg fans are slimmer by the day.
It's actually quite sad. For over ten years I've seen the potential of mmorpgs squandered. I wanted a virtual world that satisfied my different needs. PvP, creation, adventure, social interaction. But in most those areas, every mmo fails in some way.
While I only played any mmo for a month or two at a time (subscribed to CoH 18 months which is only 20% of it's lifetime), I would have played the 'right' mmo for ten years straight. I say 'would have', because I'm getting old and life is getting busier and more complicated, and my desire to stay plugged into a game 20+ hours a week is waning. So in a way, any new great game that finally gets it right is too little, too late. The genre failed me, end of story.
Well, Bill, you're quite late to the party, welcome anyway.
Yeah, i was thinking "You guys only figured this out now?" all the way while reading the article .
Regardless, i completly agree Bill. I don't hate story, questing, dungeons, cutscenes, voice-overs, etc at all (expect "personal" stories and voiced pc's). I think they bring good things to the game and give it greater quality. It's developers abusing them and turning them into the main focus of the entire game by 90% that angers. Once you're finished with it, it's over and there's nothing left to achive and play.
More "systems" and "non ending" activities are necessary and fortunatly, it seems quite a few devs are figuring this out. Let's hope mmorpgs like these are coming in the future.
I suppose I actually should have said, "The Problem Few Devs Are Acknowledging" but this seemed catchier.
In regards to GW2, I still think the game's fantastic... in fact, I love themeparks as much as I long for a good quality take on the Sandbox (Malu and EQNext I'm particularly looking forward to, as well as Darkfall:UW's PVP-oriented take). But a Theme-park can have quality longevity, just the same. For millions, WoW does the trick. I don't know how, but it does.
However, WoW (as the article states) is a fluke. It can afford to take time and sustain itself because of its insane amount of subscribers. As we've seen lately, that model just doesn't work with any other title.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
Originally posted by Ozivois They need to slow down level progression - that will add more time to subs. Lower experience gain to a minimum so that players have to spend inordinate amounts of time in every area of the world. Offer raids for every ten levels. Limit daily experience gain. Make it so that rare level 20 armor is worth looking for because you will be able to use it for another month as you work your way to level 30...
Why do they need to slow down level progression? So they can bilk you out of even more money? So the game can just become tedious? No thanks.
I got an idea when it comes to longevity of a game. Stop playing games like they're a second job. Does anyone hear realize how ridiculous it is to spend 5-6 hours per day playing a computer game? Maybe slow down the amount of time you play and you won't finish a game in 2 months.
To Bill's article, I think you need both. You need both the content to keep people happy and the systems. Just one of those won't be enough to keep people coming. Especially those who have apparently massive amounts of time every week to waste.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Originally posted by Ozivois They need to slow down level progression - that will add more time to subs. Lower experience gain to a minimum so that players have to spend inordinate amounts of time in every area of the world. Offer raids for every ten levels. Limit daily experience gain. Make it so that rare level 20 armor is worth looking for because you will be able to use it for another month as you work your way to level 30...
Why do they need to slow down level progression? So they can bilk you out of even more money? So the game can just become tedious? No thanks.
I got an idea when it comes to longevity of a game. Stop playing games like they're a second job. Does anyone hear realize how ridiculous it is to spend 5-6 hours per day playing a computer game? Maybe slow down the amount of time you play and you won't finish a game in 2 months.
To Bill's article, I think you need both. You need both the content to keep people happy and the systems. Just one of those won't be enough to keep people coming. Especially those who have apparently massive amounts of time every week to waste.
When you say job are you implying people hate what they are doing? What if they find their job immense fun? Is it wrong to have immense fun for 5-6 hours a day?
I agree with what your saying, and really this is why I'm a sandbox player and not a themepark player, the heart behind a sandbox MMO is that it has content such as storyline and questing, but it also has tons and tons of systems that allow you to do whatever it is you enjoy in a game.
I agree on both point completely. Yep, EQN is coming
Look to EQ2 for addresses to both issues and it's "testbed" role for EQN. The pricing model is already there, will be better still in the future when cosmetics are craftable, and it has more features than you can shake a stick at. Granted, the dungeon maker feature is not as involved as NW looks to be and the dungeon finder is a bit buggy with 29 different classes but you have all these features in one game. Level scaling, housing, good crafting, deep character advancement, various quest types, SoEMote and even 3DTV. What's my point?
EQ2 itself ends with raid progression but if you look at the tools it has built over the years the good ones have been built into EQN from the start. Apply that to the Forgelight engine and a tout of "biggest sandbox style MMO ever created" and we may very well see a resurgence of long term player retention among new MMOs based on your two great points.
Wow that was probably one of your bests articles. So true. All that content in SWTOR for example is useless, people have been through it few times and moved on. F2P people will find out the same.
I do think your comments about Neverwinter are misplaced. Cryptic has never made a decent game ever, what makes you think they can do it with this title. Secondly as I have mention a few times before, PW is well know to abuse players with a necessary item shop. I just don't see them making everything about the foundry free. Not going to happen.
Yeah overall article is right and even business model wise is also right. There is no chance that in example 30 subsciption only mmorpg's (not countining very small indie ones) would thrive.
Still does not change fact that I will never again personally play freemium, f2p or similar model.
It might work for industry generally speaking but It does not really work for me. Microtransactions suck enjoyment out of me due to my specific reasons why I play mmorpg's in first place.
Yes we all bask the the epiphany right now. Just remember in two months we will be voting for all the various mmo awards of the year. Will you be surprised when it reads: themepark, themepark, themepark, themepark....
Btw, plenty of people have been talking about this issue for years. Moderators make it seem like nobody is though >_>
Sorry to bring in the sandbox/themepark take on the article but isnt that what makes sandboxes have longer longlivety? A Sandbox generally by its nature has many many systems, while a themepark has one or very few.
My problem with most recent games is the way they are telling me how to play, telling me what system i can use and when i can use it or making each system so similiar to one another that it doesnt matter which one im using, if im looking for a story, ill watch a film or play a single player game, they just dont work well in MMO's because of everyone else, if i want to play a game however I want choices, lots of them which in turn requires alot of different systems.
Being newish to the joys off MMO's I've had to learn the history of the genre and what it stands for in essense and something that has driven home the fact that modern MMO's are pale copies of their predecessors was going back to Vanguard after playing many many modern MMO's inbetween the last time I played. The feel of Vanguard is so different from modern MMO's that only one other MMO has given me that feeling and thats another old skool MMO, Lineage 2 and that feeling is a vast open world to play in that always offers new and different experiences whatever path you decide to take, with deep mechanics and lore that help you immerse yourself in a fantasy world, sadly Lineage 2 is shell of its former glory.
Now after reading these boards for a few years I've slowly come to understand that essense (all bitter vets stand and take a bow ) and what is missing from modern MMO's to sustain and build a community and Bill hits the nail on the head with, systems, systems to encourage interdepency, systems to engage the players be they deep comabt mechanics, deep crafting systems or as in Vanguard a great Diplomacy system, systems to help the players form socities be they good, bad or indifferent, systems to deepen the immersion and connection to the world you are playing in, systems to help you understand your chosen role in that world, systems that encourage you to be better at whatever you choose to be. Overall to help make the game a deeper more slow burning experience rather than a rush in and rush out as if on a conveyor belt, I'm done mentatlity that modern MMO's seem to encourage more than anything.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Very nice post, the problem with personal story and achievement for me is that it hasnt felt very personal or achieving in a very long time. I mean Skyrim felt more personal to me than any mmo and it is a single player experience.
I have to disagree about WoW being a fluke. It was the first of its kind to be friendly to new MMOers. It had a very low learning curve and most of its content was easily accessible. I remember when I first started SWG in 2003 and it took me a good 2 months to learn the ins and outs of that game. Now I can jump into any current MMO and learn all I need to know in less than a hour.
WoW did to MMOs what Starbucks did to coffee. Starbucks got the masses to drink coffee that normally didn't like coffee. And it's not really the coffee most people like about Starbucks, it's all the sweet, flavored crap they pour into it. WoW did the same to MMOs. It's not the MMO part of WoW people like, it's the Skinner box method of getting players hooked on their epic shineys and they can't let go. Most don't give a flip about any true social aspects of MMOs. People that truly enjoy the MMORPG aspect are unfortunately in the minority. A fluke? I think not. It was a brilliant business strategy.
Comments
You, sir, win the internetz.
Worms from can have been removed they have. Put them back in box they cannot.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Erectile Dysfunction? Painful Hemorrhoids? Jock itch? Toenail fungus?
Oh, thank god Bill, for going somewhere else entirely. The title's like an intro for one of those commercials.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Gamers have been conned into thinking million-dollar cut scenes and one-time content were what we really wanted.
Now, where are all the devs who come here to scan these articles?
Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I agree with this. Some other points is that MMO companies should be realistic about game design. An MMO doesn't need millions of players to be successful. Most servers by popular standards house 3-4 thousand players at a time. They can make design risks and build a niche core within themselves.
That's the problem I've seen. Many MMO's these days are afraid to jump into uncharted waters (pun, intended). They haven't tried to push theirselves because they belive an MMO requires an extensive sum of money to develop; they are falling into AAA category that doesn't need to be brought.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
But the thing is, those waters have already been charted and sailed successfully. There's plenty of gaming systems out there ready to be reborn and improved upon.
UO, SWG, EQ, DAoC, etc. etc. There are wonderful systems in those titles alone that could easily be improved upon.
It's up to us, the gamers, as to where the future of MMO development takes us. Do we continue paying for subpar games designed around box sales or do we say enough is enough and DEMAND developers to take notice?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Ever since Smedley talked about sand box elements and then clearly took EQ into that direction, this has been just about the major topic of the day. I've been preaching it for years amongst the many others here chatting over fundamental flaws of themepark games. Some of the largest threads over the last few months have been about the whole themepark/sandbox debate. Simply look over my post history (from a modest post count person) and see the amount of thread content I've posted in on this very subject. I'd say this topic is the fundamental theme (outside if individual game subjects) on these boards and others for months which leads to the massive coverage of upcoming sandbox games and the obvious change in mmo design direction by both indie and AAA companies.
Now let's look at the title of this articile: "The Problem No One's Talking About". Perhaps it should be changed to: "The Problem No One's Talking About: Short Term Memory Loss".
You stay sassy!
Yeah, i was thinking "You guys only figured this out now?" all the way while reading the article
.
Regardless, i completly agree Bill. I don't hate story, questing, dungeons, cutscenes, voice-overs, etc at all (expect "personal" stories and voiced pc's). I think they bring good things to the game and give it greater quality. It's developers abusing them and turning them into the main focus of the entire game by 90% that angers. Once you're finished with it, it's over and there's nothing left to achive and play.
More "systems" and "non ending" activities are necessary and fortunatly, it seems quite a few devs are figuring this out. Let's hope mmorpgs like these are coming in the future.
I consider myself the typical mmo gamer, one that plays for one or two months. In the past, you actually had more GOOD options, CoH, DAoC, EQ, or WoW. Now that all of those games are aged and one is going to be closing, the real options for mmorpg fans are slimmer by the day.
It's actually quite sad. For over ten years I've seen the potential of mmorpgs squandered. I wanted a virtual world that satisfied my different needs. PvP, creation, adventure, social interaction. But in most those areas, every mmo fails in some way.
While I only played any mmo for a month or two at a time (subscribed to CoH 18 months which is only 20% of it's lifetime), I would have played the 'right' mmo for ten years straight. I say 'would have', because I'm getting old and life is getting busier and more complicated, and my desire to stay plugged into a game 20+ hours a week is waning. So in a way, any new great game that finally gets it right is too little, too late. The genre failed me, end of story.
I suppose I actually should have said, "The Problem Few Devs Are Acknowledging" but this seemed catchier.
In regards to GW2, I still think the game's fantastic... in fact, I love themeparks as much as I long for a good quality take on the Sandbox (Malu and EQNext I'm particularly looking forward to, as well as Darkfall:UW's PVP-oriented take). But a Theme-park can have quality longevity, just the same. For millions, WoW does the trick. I don't know how, but it does.
However, WoW (as the article states) is a fluke. It can afford to take time and sustain itself because of its insane amount of subscribers. As we've seen lately, that model just doesn't work with any other title.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
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Why do they need to slow down level progression? So they can bilk you out of even more money? So the game can just become tedious? No thanks.
I got an idea when it comes to longevity of a game. Stop playing games like they're a second job. Does anyone hear realize how ridiculous it is to spend 5-6 hours per day playing a computer game? Maybe slow down the amount of time you play and you won't finish a game in 2 months.
To Bill's article, I think you need both. You need both the content to keep people happy and the systems. Just one of those won't be enough to keep people coming. Especially those who have apparently massive amounts of time every week to waste.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
IMO they should get rid of the whole "the world revolves around me" feeling you get from most, if not all new MMO's.
Combat shouldn't be the only main aspect of the RPG experience. Crafting and socialising systems should be on an equal footing as combat.
When you say job are you implying people hate what they are doing? What if they find their job immense fun? Is it wrong to have immense fun for 5-6 hours a day?
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
I agree on both point completely. Yep, EQN is coming
Look to EQ2 for addresses to both issues and it's "testbed" role for EQN. The pricing model is already there, will be better still in the future when cosmetics are craftable, and it has more features than you can shake a stick at. Granted, the dungeon maker feature is not as involved as NW looks to be and the dungeon finder is a bit buggy with 29 different classes but you have all these features in one game. Level scaling, housing, good crafting, deep character advancement, various quest types, SoEMote and even 3DTV. What's my point?
EQ2 itself ends with raid progression but if you look at the tools it has built over the years the good ones have been built into EQN from the start. Apply that to the Forgelight engine and a tout of "biggest sandbox style MMO ever created" and we may very well see a resurgence of long term player retention among new MMOs based on your two great points.
Wow that was probably one of your bests articles. So true. All that content in SWTOR for example is useless, people have been through it few times and moved on. F2P people will find out the same.
I do think your comments about Neverwinter are misplaced. Cryptic has never made a decent game ever, what makes you think they can do it with this title. Secondly as I have mention a few times before, PW is well know to abuse players with a necessary item shop. I just don't see them making everything about the foundry free. Not going to happen.
Yeah overall article is right and even business model wise is also right. There is no chance that in example 30 subsciption only mmorpg's (not countining very small indie ones) would thrive.
Still does not change fact that I will never again personally play freemium, f2p or similar model.
It might work for industry generally speaking but It does not really work for me. Microtransactions suck enjoyment out of me due to my specific reasons why I play mmorpg's in first place.
Yes we all bask the the epiphany right now. Just remember in two months we will be voting for all the various mmo awards of the year. Will you be surprised when it reads: themepark, themepark, themepark, themepark....
Btw, plenty of people have been talking about this issue for years. Moderators make it seem like nobody is though >_>
Sorry to bring in the sandbox/themepark take on the article but isnt that what makes sandboxes have longer longlivety? A Sandbox generally by its nature has many many systems, while a themepark has one or very few.
My problem with most recent games is the way they are telling me how to play, telling me what system i can use and when i can use it or making each system so similiar to one another that it doesnt matter which one im using, if im looking for a story, ill watch a film or play a single player game, they just dont work well in MMO's because of everyone else, if i want to play a game however I want choices, lots of them which in turn requires alot of different systems.
Good point. Threads about sandboxes, more varied gameplay, less linearity, etc are endless and reappear all the time for looooong years already.
Being newish to the joys off MMO's I've had to learn the history of the genre and what it stands for in essense and something that has driven home the fact that modern MMO's are pale copies of their predecessors was going back to Vanguard after playing many many modern MMO's inbetween the last time I played. The feel of Vanguard is so different from modern MMO's that only one other MMO has given me that feeling and thats another old skool MMO, Lineage 2 and that feeling is a vast open world to play in that always offers new and different experiences whatever path you decide to take, with deep mechanics and lore that help you immerse yourself in a fantasy world, sadly Lineage 2 is shell of its former glory.
Now after reading these boards for a few years I've slowly come to understand that essense (all bitter vets stand and take a bow
) and what is missing from modern MMO's to sustain and build a community and Bill hits the nail on the head with, systems, systems to encourage interdepency, systems to engage the players be they deep comabt mechanics, deep crafting systems or as in Vanguard a great Diplomacy system, systems to help the players form socities be they good, bad or indifferent, systems to deepen the immersion and connection to the world you are playing in, systems to help you understand your chosen role in that world, systems that encourage you to be better at whatever you choose to be. Overall to help make the game a deeper more slow burning experience rather than a rush in and rush out as if on a conveyor belt, I'm done mentatlity that modern MMO's seem to encourage more than anything.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I have to disagree about WoW being a fluke. It was the first of its kind to be friendly to new MMOers. It had a very low learning curve and most of its content was easily accessible. I remember when I first started SWG in 2003 and it took me a good 2 months to learn the ins and outs of that game. Now I can jump into any current MMO and learn all I need to know in less than a hour.
WoW did to MMOs what Starbucks did to coffee. Starbucks got the masses to drink coffee that normally didn't like coffee. And it's not really the coffee most people like about Starbucks, it's all the sweet, flavored crap they pour into it. WoW did the same to MMOs. It's not the MMO part of WoW people like, it's the Skinner box method of getting players hooked on their epic shineys and they can't let go. Most don't give a flip about any true social aspects of MMOs. People that truly enjoy the MMORPG aspect are unfortunately in the minority. A fluke? I think not. It was a brilliant business strategy.