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Guild Wars 2 should totally get rid of Levels

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Comments

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I'm not sure on the secret world has no levels, they certainly stuck to the no classes bit, but.. they have pseudo levels with the weapon & talisman skills, and unfortunately they stuck with a wow style heavily gear based progression system which imo is worse than gw2 having levels but not having gear barriers.
  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    I'm not sure on the secret world has no levels, they certainly stuck to the no classes bit, but.. they have pseudo levels with the weapon & talisman skills, and unfortunately they stuck with a wow style heavily gear based progression system which imo is worse than gw2 having levels but not having gear barriers.

    Yeah, that's the false beliefs of the TSW fans that TSW has no level and therefore gives more "freedom".

    Even UO, a sandbox, has skill progression - if you take a freshly rolled character with noob gear to a dragon, the dragon will have a feast of roasted noob meat that day, without you even standing a chance.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

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  • sfc1971sfc1971 UtrechtPosts: 421Member
    Originally posted by Vorch

    can someone please clear up the definition of sandbox for me?

     

    I thought it simply meant the option of player created content.

     

    Also, if ANet follows their pattern, future expansions/content will focus on max level characters rather than low level content.

     

    But I do understand where you are coming from.

    Sandbox = Sandbox in which you use a base material like ehhhh, sand? to build things, adventures, fantasies. A sandpit can become ANYTHING, see Calvin & Hobbes.

    Themepark = Somebody else build the adventure, you go from pre-builld attraction to pre-build attraction and sometimes there is a parade.

    GW2 = themepark just somepeople got confused because the guest givers at hubs got a heart instead of a exclemation mark.

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    The freedom is not on the levels (or lack of), but on the role you play.

     

    Imagine your favorite GW2 only without any classes and all the skills pooled into one big tank where you could mix and match anything you felt made sense.

    Doesn't that offer more freedom than what you currently have?

     

    As for the friend above, yes, GW2 is a themepark, but only in the PvE aspect. The WvW is a sandbox. The unfortunate bit is that they have separated them, so it's like you're playing four distingtivly different games (third being the dungeon system and fourth the sPvP) that can't cooexist in the same space as a whole.

  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo HindPosts: 662Member
    I agree. Remove level restrictions in zones and open up the whole game for everyone. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to go to Orr for example at lvl 10 and get buffed up. There's still Traits and Stats + Gear which will make it harder for you in Orr than it would for a lvl 80. But when you think about it, why would you go to Orr at level 10? the personal story tells you you're not ready for Orr at that low level. I think it wouldn't work but it would indeed give a better gameplay experience.

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  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak
    Originally posted by Vorch

    can someone please clear up the definition of sandbox for me?

     

    I thought it simply meant the option of player created content.

     

    If payer created content means something like player created quests as in Neverwinter for you, you are wrong. Sandbox means "player driven" in all aspects of the game: player driven progression, player driven economy, player driven politics, player driven environment, player driven combat & tactics,  ....

    Levels are unusual in a sandbox, but could be feasible. Levels = thempark is an old urban myth like sandbox = Open PvP.

    GW2 is a themepark and getting rid of levels would not make a sandbox out of it. However my first idea was too, that this game needs no levels, as it need no heartsquests. This was done to give more orientation to players, but ttis also leaded to a certain grade of linearity: the plague of all themeparks. Dont get me wrong, GW2 is refreshingly unlinear. But just inside of a zone. The world design is linear, due to level-oriented zones. Looking to PVE, you have to follow a path from Level 1 to 80, even if you ignore the personal story fully. The advantage compared to other themeparks is, that there are dozens of pathes you may follow and the pathes are very broad. 

     

    levels are a themepark element. doesnt mean a more sandbox game cant have them. which is why I stated that no levels would make GW2 more sandbox like. Didnt mean it would make the game into a sandbox.

     

    Levels are an RPG element, have been since the first pen and paper RPG.

    But wait!!!!!  I thought GW2 wasn't an RPG!  Or an MMO!

     

    I think it's funny that now, after all the threads/comments about how easy GW2 is to level, we have one that talks about having no levels.  I guess you should be able to go fight (and defeat) Zhaitan at level 1, huh?  Or, since we're talking about no levels here, after playing the game for 5 minutes we should be able to go fight Zhaitan.  I can see the "game is over too fast" threads on that one.

     

    Yes, levels don't mean much in the game, that's true.  However, leveling is a way they used to track your progression through the world and your personal story.  I imagine the game was intended to be done kind of the way I've been playing it - I've been playing it this way because I think it's the way it was intended:  Use the personal story as your guide through the world, playing each instance of your story as you get to the appropriate level (or somewhere close to it).  In the meantime, when there are level gaps in your story, you explore the world and help out the NPCs until you are the correct level to do the personal storyline again.  Then, once you finish your personal story, you are level 80 and you still have the rest of the world/game as your endgame:  You can go anywhere you want and still get XP, skill points, etc. and have a little bit of a challenge, plus you have WvWvW and sPvP as well as crafting, etc. to fill your time.

     

    So I guess they could get rid of levels, but then people would scream even more about "progression"

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    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

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  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by ice-vortex
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak
    Originally posted by Vorch

    can someone please clear up the definition of sandbox for me?

     

    I thought it simply meant the option of player created content.

     

    If payer created content means something like player created quests as in Neverwinter for you, you are wrong. Sandbox means "player driven" in all aspects of the game: player driven progression, player driven economy, player driven politics, player driven environment, player driven combat & tactics,  ....

    Levels are unusual in a sandbox, but could be feasible. Levels = thempark is an old urban myth like sandbox = Open PvP.

    GW2 is a themepark and getting rid of levels would not make a sandbox out of it. However my first idea was too, that this game needs no levels, as it need no heartsquests. This was done to give more orientation to players, but ttis also leaded to a certain grade of linearity: the plague of all themeparks. Dont get me wrong, GW2 is refreshingly unlinear. But just inside of a zone. The world design is linear, due to level-oriented zones. Looking to PVE, you have to follow a path from Level 1 to 80, even if you ignore the personal story fully. The advantage compared to other themeparks is, that there are dozens of pathes you may follow and the pathes are very broad. 

     

    levels are a themepark element. doesnt mean a more sandbox game cant have them. which is why I stated that no levels would make GW2 more sandbox like. Didnt mean it would make the game into a sandbox.

     

    Levels are an RPG element, have been since the first pen and paper RPG.

    But wait!!!!!  I thought GW2 wasn't an RPG!  Or an MMO!

     

    I think it's funny that now, after all the threads/comments about how easy GW2 is to level, we have one that talks about having no levels.  I guess you should be able to go fight (and defeat) Zhaitan at level 1, huh?  Or, since we're talking about no levels here, after playing the game for 5 minutes we should be able to go fight Zhaitan.  I can see the "game is over too fast" threads on that one.

     

    Yes, levels don't mean much in the game, that's true.  However, leveling is a way they used to track your progression through the world and your personal story.  I imagine the game was intended to be done kind of the way I've been playing it - I've been playing it this way because I think it's the way it was intended:  Use the personal story as your guide through the world, playing each instance of your story as you get to the appropriate level (or somewhere close to it).  In the meantime, when there are level gaps in your story, you explore the world and help out the NPCs until you are the correct level to do the personal storyline again.  Then, once you finish your personal story, you are level 80 and you still have the rest of the world/game as your endgame:  You can go anywhere you want and still get XP, skill points, etc. and have a little bit of a challenge, plus you have WvWvW and sPvP as well as crafting, etc. to fill your time.

     

    So I guess they could get rid of levels, but then people would scream even more about "progression"

    They can scream all they want, but GW2 was never intended to be a game about progression, it was on the contrary tailored to be all about fun without any "mandatory progression" to get to the fun. 

     

    Of course, not even Arenanet gets everything right and unfortunely to appeal to the WoW masses, they included some barebones mandatory progression. 

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    Calling the casual crowd WoW mass is bad taste.

    Both games are targetting the same crowd, that much is obvious. It's also obvious that WoW has done something right to maintain those people for so long. Yet, if you present people with the exact same game, why would they change from what they currently playing?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,801Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    The freedom is not on the levels (or lack of), but on the role you play.

     

    Imagine your favorite GW2 only without any classes and all the skills pooled into one big tank where you could mix and match anything you felt made sense.

    Doesn't that offer more freedom than what you currently have?

     

    As for the friend above, yes, GW2 is a themepark, but only in the PvE aspect. The WvW is a sandbox. The unfortunate bit is that they have separated them, so it's like you're playing four distingtivly different games (third being the dungeon system and fourth the sPvP) that can't cooexist in the same space as a whole.

    On the other hand a tank spec in TSW tanks, a healing spec heals and a DPS spec DPS. An hybrid spec is soloing.

    A defensive Warrior spec in GW2 "tanks", DPS and support. An offensive Warrior spec in GW2 "tanks", DPS and support. A support Warrior spec in GW2 "tanks", DPS and support.

    A Thief willd do the same, but on a "thieving flavour", a mesmer in a mesmerish way, etc.

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    You can have a themepark without levels - planetside.

    And The Secret World.

    TSW does have levels, in a way. You unlock more of the skills in the Skill Wheel. That is levling in a way.

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  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    I think a better representation of what GW2 could have been if it had more freedom is Archeage system of skills/classes, not TSW.
  • motmot84motmot84 MandaluyongPosts: 11Member
    Removing level progression and make all areas accessible at once any time will opt people to skip story/content and just go to the high-end map. This will lead to lack of immersion in the game. Heck if you're gonna remove levels then remove other maps as well.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon

    1) there really isn't much of an endgame

    2) leveling is the only fun I had in GW2

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,059Member Uncommon
    They should also give you unlimited gold while they are at it. Every drop should be an Exotic or given to us from vendors of our choice.

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  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Whether you are in favor of getting rid of levels or not, I think it's too late for them to do that right now.

    HOWEVER, what I think they should do, is NOT increase the level cap in expansions, and make them kind of like how GW1 expansions were.  Where you get 80 pretty fast, and most of the world consist of level 80 zones.  But you want to explore them because there are "goodies" (skills in GW1) spread throughout the world, and you need to see a large amount of the world to get them all.

    As for what kind of goodies could be put into GW2...I think that maybe they should add new special skills to the expansion that are only attainable by special mystic forge recipes or something.  And you would have to get the ingredients for these recipes by going to specific places in the world.

    The skills could even be cross-class PvE only skills that were mainly for fun stuff.  Or even emotes or something.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by motmot84
    Removing level progression and make all areas accessible at once any time will opt people to skip story/content and just go to the high-end map. This will lead to lack of immersion in the game. Heck if you're gonna remove levels then remove other maps as well.

    I'd argue the opposite really. If levels were removed than all maps would have the same value and people could spread out without losing Karma points due to lesser rewards. It would probably add to immersion as people are free to roam as they pleased without being herded into one direction. 

  • tv2zulutv2zulu CopenhagenPosts: 73Member

    Okay, seems some people are confused in here.

    Skills != Levels.

    UO does not have levels, it has progression via skills.

    EVE does not have levels, it has progression via skills.

    All MMOs have character progression, that is one of the defining mechanics of (MMO)RPGs. That dosn' mean every MMO has levels or skills. However, a skill-based progression system is quite different from a level based one.

    Yes, most of us know this, just made me cringe to read someone call a new character in UO "level 1".

  • tv2zulutv2zulu CopenhagenPosts: 73Member

    Wanted to chime in on the remove levels thing as well.

    It's not feasible the way drops and resources are implemented in GW2. It's a much bigger task than just removing the levels on characters, zones and MOBs.

    They would have to re-itemize the entire game, and the result would be negligible since GW2 is still a themepark at its core.

    There would still be no reason to visit the areas with the lower tier resources, since the population will progress past them as the game matures. So crafting and weapon/armor/item wear and tear would need to be redone as well. Now this has to happen anyway if they want crafting and the player economy to be viable at all tiers anyway, but they'll most likely leave it and concentrate on expanding the highest tier horizontally.

    Which is what will most likely happen with GW2 overall. I think, and hope, that 80 is as high as we'll ever go. They stretched out the 20 levels from GW1 to allow for a more flexible approach in terms of advancement and sense of character direction through the leveling process.

    Thus, I doubt that they will continue the GW1 style with "mini" standalone expansions and do regular expansions, that focus on expanding the game horizontally, focused on level 80 content.

    However, the short version is; the way GW2 is designed, just removing levels wont amke for a better gameplay experience, so there's really no reason for ANet to dump resources into it at this point, neither should we really wish for it.

     

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    Stupid Idea OP...

     

    Most people love when numbers proof that they are advancing... the level numbers are perfect for this.

     

    GW2 has by far the best zone level system around.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Whether you are in favor of getting rid of levels or not, I think it's too late for them to do that right now.

    HOWEVER, what I think they should do, is NOT increase the level cap in expansions, and make them kind of like how GW1 expansions were.  Where you get 80 pretty fast, and most of the world consist of level 80 zones.  But you want to explore them because there are "goodies" (skills in GW1) spread throughout the world, and you need to see a large amount of the world to get them all.

    As for what kind of goodies could be put into GW2...I think that maybe they should add new special skills to the expansion that are only attainable by special mystic forge recipes or something.  And you would have to get the ingredients for these recipes by going to specific places in the world.

    The skills could even be cross-class PvE only skills that were mainly for fun stuff.  Or even emotes or something.

    I wish Anet would put the elite skill search (or even better - a weapons skill search) into GW2 like they had for GW1.  You know, kill a certain boss and learn their elite skill.  Would love to see that.  Maybe some of the Champions could have certain weapons skills you could learn to mix and match like they did with GW1.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

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