Wish DF 2.0 was a move forward but it is not...it is just a patch(or expansion if you wish) to horribly designed game and it remains horribly designed game.
That is exactly what it's not.. If it was just a patch people would be much less mad.
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
Originally posted by Hotjazz EVE alignment couldn`t work otherwise.
You do not really have an idea what I talk about...
Security rating is just a secondary part of the system. The major thing is NPC retaliation and there is the issue with DF - you die in 3-4 hits with little or no investment.
Which means it is not possible to retaliate before victim target dies and when aggressor is killed, it is not losing anything.
Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made
Oh god...people really need to play EVE to understand what sandbox is.
DF is not a sandbox.
I played EVE for six years. I am qualified to inform you that you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not sure how long you're going to be permitted to continue this behaviour, but man, you're digging pretty deep, homie.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made
Oh god...people really need to play EVE to understand what sandbox is.
DF is not a sandbox.
I played EVE for six years. I am qualified to inform you that you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not sure how long you're going to be permitted to continue this behaviour, but man, you're digging pretty deep, homie.
I'll be skipping this game. They don't let us try before buying it like a weekend open beta, so they are hiding that it still sucks.
Aventurine has horrible customer skills and they will die with this game. Company will shutdown within 1 year of unholy war release.
Yeah I doubt that, considering how long AV has lasted already. Everyone thought the game wouldn't make it to it's first release, but they've said all along that they understand they are marketing to a small niche community. The amount of funding they received will last them an easy 4 years as well.
Of course I don't know why I just responded to that, as you obviously have no clue what you're talking about if you think that ESO, WarZ, or Wizardry are going to end up being successful. You should go back to your themeparks.
Originally posted by Gdemami
Originally posted by afhn2110
Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made
Oh god...people really need to play EVE to understand what sandbox is.
DF is not a sandbox.
Apparently you don't know what a sandbox is.
Darkfall has just as many sandbox features as EVE, if you think otherwise you obviously never played either game. Also Darkfall is first marketed as a Massive PvP war game, and secondly as a sandbox. I do agree with his specific statement though, Darkfall is without a doubt the best open world PvP game out there.
Being a Darkfall veteran and being one of those people that would laugh at people that played wow and Rift and GW, etc, explaining to them that they don't really understand what hardcore is, some of the new bullet points of the new Darkfall totally saddened me. Many vets reading this know what i'm talking about, going to other games and listening to people pvping and thinking, "wow...these people really think they're good." Or, "wow, did that guy really just qq about getting killed in the open world in a game where nothing happens when you die." Or, "omg, they call that a siege system." So yea...all of us veterans have been through this.
That said, everything has a beginning and an end. Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made for the niche gamers/vets that have been playing for years, but its over. Our game was great and we had great moments that we'll never forget.
Some of us since the announcement of 2.0 have resisted some of the things that cator to the masses. We know Darkfall as the hardcore game that has the niche community following it because of things like:
1. Total FFA PVP with absolutely no safezones
2. Total freedom to build your character however you want
3. 100% skill based with practically no crowd control skills
4. Basic animations as opposed to glowing skills flashing all over
5. A close knit community that loves each other but hates each other all at the same time
Truth said, these things are gone....with it some of our niche players will go away as well. All of this said, the bottom line is that you can't expect a company to launch an entirely knew game for a niche community, it just doesn't make business sense. Aventurine made a decision and they want a larger community and they want to make more money, obviously...it is a busniess. So when us vets get upset and say, "wow, really...your existing community is going to hate this" your saying the 1000 or so left (if that) won't like this...you idiots are catoring to hte 10,000...whats wrong with you!?
Its time to let go of our old Darkfall...if you can't, well...you can't, but theres no sense in comparing the two and constantly saying its stupid, what aventurine is doing that is. The company ended the old game and now they are moving forward, and with this dicision, the game will have a much healthier population.
Just speaking outloud as I started to qq when I saw safezones, and it prompted me to say to myself, "its a new game....accept it or move on."
the safe zones could change they are just disabaling the towers and not removing them so we never know what might happen.. i agree the safe zone line crossing will be a problem tho if they dont add some kinda timer to be immuned
Being a Darkfall veteran and being one of those people that would laugh at people that played wow and Rift and GW, etc, explaining to them that they don't really understand what hardcore is,
I must confess, I didn't read much further than this. It pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the post, which we've read countless times already.
I will say this however :
hard core
n.
1. The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization: the hard core of the separatist movement.
2. An intractable core or nucleus of a society, especially one that is stubbornly resistant to improvement or change.
3. often hard·core (härdkôr, -kr) A form of exceptionally harsh punk rock.
Playing DarkFall does not appear to be in the definition, nor Full Loot FFA PvP or anything along those lines. However, according to the first definition "The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization", I'd say those WoW, EQ and other MMORPG players can be hardcore as well, just as the DarkFall players. Rather, it is you who that does not understand what "hardcore" means. Enough with the flexing already. People will play the games they like, and enjoy it the way they see fit. Hardcore has nothing to do with what kind of game they play.
Besides, DarkFall is a pretty easy game considering how easy it is to recover what you've lost. It's a lot more difficult to do so in a game like EVE.
Wish DF 2.0 was a move forward but it is not...it is just a patch(or expansion if you wish) to horribly designed game and it remains horribly designed game.
That is exactly what it's not.. If it was just a patch people would be much less mad.
if you think its just a patch then i guess you will see
Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made
Oh god...people really need to play EVE to understand what sandbox is.
DF is not a sandbox.
It's not total PVP it has gone soft and the sound of the new expansion worries me I have 6 Eve accounts and am concerned but will have to wait and see how it pans out before judging it. As for DF2.0 not sure if I'll bother until it's been about for a few months. I got bored with DF1 same old shit all the time, not enough love for the game so I deleted both my accounts and have not been back since.
I really hope that DF2.0 is a lot better for everyones sake and that it's evolved in all aspects from DF1
Being a Darkfall veteran and being one of those people that would laugh at people that played wow and Rift and GW, etc, explaining to them that they don't really understand what hardcore is, some of the new bullet points of the new Darkfall totally saddened me. Many vets reading this know what i'm talking about, going to other games and listening to people pvping and thinking, "wow...these people really think they're good." Or, "wow, did that guy really just qq about getting killed in the open world in a game where nothing happens when you die." Or, "omg, they call that a siege system." So yea...all of us veterans have been through this.
That said, everything has a beginning and an end. Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made for the niche gamers/vets that have been playing for years, but its over. Our game was great and we had great moments that we'll never forget.
Some of us since the announcement of 2.0 have resisted some of the things that cator to the masses. We know Darkfall as the hardcore game that has the niche community following it because of things like:
1. Total FFA PVP with absolutely no safezones
2. Total freedom to build your character however you want
3. 100% skill based with practically no crowd control skills
4. Basic animations as opposed to glowing skills flashing all over
5. A close knit community that loves each other but hates each other all at the same time
Truth said, these things are gone....with it some of our niche players will go away as well. All of this said, the bottom line is that you can't expect a company to launch an entirely knew game for a niche community, it just doesn't make business sense. Aventurine made a decision and they want a larger community and they want to make more money, obviously...it is a busniess. So when us vets get upset and say, "wow, really...your existing community is going to hate this" your saying the 1000 or so left (if that) won't like this...you idiots are catoring to hte 10,000...whats wrong with you!?
Its time to let go of our old Darkfall...if you can't, well...you can't, but theres no sense in comparing the two and constantly saying its stupid, what aventurine is doing that is. The company ended the old game and now they are moving forward, and with this dicision, the game will have a much healthier population.
Just speaking outloud as I started to qq when I saw safezones, and it prompted me to say to myself, "its a new game....accept it or move on."
the safe zones could change they are just disabaling the towers and not removing them so we never know what might happen.. i agree the safe zone line crossing will be a problem tho if they dont add some kinda timer to be immuned
I don't know, in the blog it specifically says pvp is set to off when you get in npc cities...so red or not doesn't matter, you can't pvp at all.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
"Darkfall 1.0 while having its downfalls, was the greatest sandbox owpvp game ever made for the niche gamers/vets that have been playing for years"
I couldnt disagree with you more. Ultima Online holds that title and seeing as a LOT of the loot rules and hell, even the non item-slot containers and some UI elements come straight out of UO, it is still the King.
Both UO and even original SWG were superior in every way to the thing that is DF.
Too bad many players of DF will never know how good those were from the sandbox perspective (even tho SWG had flagged PvP).
Well as a new guy who will be there day one , I can see where a lot of the vets are coming from, but none of this is a deal breaker or even seems bad...
As a Darkfall veteran myself, I am of two minds about this.
I understand the OP's perspective and agree with most of it.
I don't believe Darkfall was perfect by any stretch but it was indeed the "best" of its kind.
I think the direction they are going will indeed bring and keep more new players, which is invariably a good thing both from a gameplay and business standpoint.
However, I do think there was a way to solve the issues without creating safe zones. Safe zones, to me, is a lazy solution. An actual crime and punishment system, bounty system, etc could have been a lot more immersive while still being able to allow the "kill anyone anywhere anytime" freedom that this game created.
Personally, once I leave that safe zone I will never return to it, so I don't really have to worry about it, and I do like the idea of a lawful area populated by a large amount of newer or peaceful players, but I wish there were NPC guards, and actual disabling and arrest system.
I mean, I've always thought it was way too easy, unrealistically so, to be a murdering thieving bastard in these games. I myself am a murdering thieving bastard, but I think if there was a lot higher stakes to it, murderers and thieves would have a lot more fun.
The only people who would be negatively affected are cowards and gankers. Just jumping someone in the wild and killing them is not ganking IMO, that's just a fight. Specifically targetting noobies however, is ganking, as well as pointless and cowardly. And also...no fun. Just boring and easy.
But heres the thing, if you siege...you will return to it...and heres why. This limbo system they are adding in, which really is a bad idea allows it so you can die and instantly get back into the battle (one time a day). So in a siege, you can bind in the safe NPC city and if your force wipes...you don't get distracted at all...you are totally safe preparing to port back in. This really hurts the elitest types of clans and totally favors the zerg. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind zerging at all...but when the game favors the zerg...thats bad.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Originally posted by afhn2110 But heres the thing, if you siege...you will return to it...and heres why. This limbo system they are adding in, which really is a bad idea allows it so you can die and instantly get back into the battle (one time a day). So in a siege, you can bind in the safe NPC city and if your force wipes...you don't get distracted at all...you are totally safe preparing to port back in. This really hurts the elitest types of clans and totally favors the zerg. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind zerging at all...but when the game favors the zerg...thats bad.
we havent heard if its goign to be in or not its a feature no one wants
Beside how ridiculous this statement is...features do not make a design.
DF is what 0.0 space in EVE is, which is about 15% of whole game.
It is open world PVP game but that is about all. No more.
Obviously you've never played Darkfall or EVE to any extent of time. When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to not type.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by afhn2110
Being a Darkfall veteran and being one of those people that would laugh at people that played wow and Rift and GW, etc, explaining to them that they don't really understand what hardcore is,
Besides, DarkFall is a pretty easy game considering how easy it is to recover what you've lost. It's a lot more difficult to do so in a game like EVE.
My 2 cents.
I can tell you haven't played DF for any extent of time. Perhaps you should talk to some of the EVE players out there who will be returning to Darkfall. They can enlighten you since apparently you enjoy throwing remarks out that you clearly have no clue about.
As to your hardcore comment, it's usually used in gaming reference to a group of players that go the extra mile when it comes to gaming. I would agree that there are people who play EQ and other PvE games hardcore. But what he meant by hardcore has nothing to do with the actual defniition of the word.
To give an example would be Diablo2: Hardcore mode. It has nothing to do with the literal definition of the word and more to do with the mindset of the gamer playing that mode. I believe his intention in use of the word was that people who do play Darkfall tend to put way more hours into the game than most players put into their game, I'd be willing to guess that on a basis of hours played per character, Darkfall is quite a bit higher than every other MMO out there.
All you guys out there who act like EVE is some great masterpiece compared to DF are way off your rocker, I've played both for years. In small clans, large alliances, and everything in between. They're the same game in most ways except in one you have a spaceship and in another you swing your sword. The combat itself is quite a bit more difficult because of the FPS style in Darkfall, but EVE certainly has it's advantages when it comes to population and fodder to play against.
Beside how ridiculous this statement is...features do not make a design.
DF is what 0.0 space in EVE is, which is about 15% of whole game.
It is open world PVP game but that is about all. No more.
Obviously you've never played Darkfall or EVE to any extent of time. When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to not type.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by afhn2110
Being a Darkfall veteran and being one of those people that would laugh at people that played wow and Rift and GW, etc, explaining to them that they don't really understand what hardcore is,
Besides, DarkFall is a pretty easy game considering how easy it is to recover what you've lost. It's a lot more difficult to do so in a game like EVE.
My 2 cents.
I can tell you haven't played DF for any extent of time. Perhaps you should talk to some of the EVE players out there who will be returning to Darkfall. They can enlighten you since apparently you enjoy throwing remarks out that you clearly have no clue about.
As to your hardcore comment, it's usually used in gaming reference to a group of players that go the extra mile when it comes to gaming. I would agree that there are people who play EQ and other PvE games hardcore. But what he meant by hardcore has nothing to do with the actual defniition of the word.
To give an example would be Diablo2: Hardcore mode. It has nothing to do with the literal definition of the word and more to do with the mindset of the gamer playing that mode. I believe his intention in use of the word was that people who do play Darkfall tend to put way more hours into the game than most players put into their game, I'd be willing to guess that on a basis of hours played per character, Darkfall is quite a bit higher than every other MMO out there.
All you guys out there who act like EVE is some great masterpiece compared to DF are way off your rocker, I've played both for years. In small clans, large alliances, and everything in between. They're the same game in most ways except in one you have a spaceship and in another you swing your sword. The combat itself is quite a bit more difficult because of the FPS style in Darkfall, but EVE certainly has it's advantages when it comes to population and fodder to play against.
You seem to be the one throwing remarks that you clearly have no clue about. I've played Darkfall from Launch up to late 2010. And yes, it is extremely easy to recover items you've lost. Perhaps it is you who hasn't played long enough, who knows...
I'm aware that he wasn't using the word "hardcore" in a way that has to do with it's actual definition. He uses the word hardcore to class himself above other players, to make himself look better a.k.a flexing. Which is actually fairly common from Forumfall, and a terrible misuse of the word (as with many other words used by gamers today). And no, Darkfall doesn't have the highest average hours played per character. Considering how most clans are so inactive that they barely ever log on unless there's a siege going on...I don't think I need to explain this further (and that was before the wipe issue was mentionned).
Finally, I think it's quite ridiculous to claim that DarkFall and EVE are "the same games in most ways". Ignoring the gameplay aspect (combat) and setting (Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi), the only thing DF and EVE have in common is it's FFA PvP with Full Loot nature. I'm hesitating to put clan warfare in there as well, but the diplomacy aspect of EVE is on such a different level that I'm not sure I'd say they're alike. The economy plays a much larger aspect of EVE as well with players that can truely dedicate themselves at it and be better than others. Whereas in DF the economy is often limited within ones Clan or Alliance with little trading outside of it, and accessibility to all skills has rendered most players entirely self-sufficient, with gathering and crafting used as an activity when going AFK or multitasking to gain stats.
Originally posted by bcbully Well as a new guy who will be there day one , I can see where a lot of the vets are coming from, but none of this is a deal breaker or even seems bad...
Comments
That is exactly what it's not.. If it was just a patch people would be much less mad.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
You do not really have an idea what I talk about...
Security rating is just a secondary part of the system. The major thing is NPC retaliation and there is the issue with DF - you die in 3-4 hits with little or no investment.
Which means it is not possible to retaliate before victim target dies and when aggressor is killed, it is not losing anything.
Twitch combat has severe shortcomings...
I've never played DF1, so my opinion might be invalid, but who gives a shit what they call it?
Expansion/Patch/New game, none of that matters.
All that matters is whats in this new expansion/game/patch.
Take issue with those if you want, but going bac k and forth and debating about WHAT it's called is....silly.
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
I played EVE for six years. I am qualified to inform you that you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not sure how long you're going to be permitted to continue this behaviour, but man, you're digging pretty deep, homie.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm afraid you may be right.
But we can't know for sure until we try it.
My blog:
Yeah I doubt that, considering how long AV has lasted already. Everyone thought the game wouldn't make it to it's first release, but they've said all along that they understand they are marketing to a small niche community. The amount of funding they received will last them an easy 4 years as well.
Of course I don't know why I just responded to that, as you obviously have no clue what you're talking about if you think that ESO, WarZ, or Wizardry are going to end up being successful. You should go back to your themeparks.
Apparently you don't know what a sandbox is.
Darkfall has just as many sandbox features as EVE, if you think otherwise you obviously never played either game. Also Darkfall is first marketed as a Massive PvP war game, and secondly as a sandbox. I do agree with his specific statement though, Darkfall is without a doubt the best open world PvP game out there.
Sennheiser
Assist
Thage
Beside how ridiculous this statement is...features do not make a design.
DF is what 0.0 space in EVE is, which is about 15% of whole game.
It is open world PVP game but that is about all. No more.
the safe zones could change they are just disabaling the towers and not removing them so we never know what might happen.. i agree the safe zone line crossing will be a problem tho if they dont add some kinda timer to be immuned
I must confess, I didn't read much further than this. It pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the post, which we've read countless times already.
I will say this however :
hard coren.
2. An intractable core or nucleus of a society, especially one that is stubbornly resistant to improvement or change.
3. often hard·core (härd
kôr
, -k
r
) A form of exceptionally harsh punk rock.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hardcore
Playing DarkFall does not appear to be in the definition, nor Full Loot FFA PvP or anything along those lines. However, according to the first definition "The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization", I'd say those WoW, EQ and other MMORPG players can be hardcore as well, just as the DarkFall players. Rather, it is you who that does not understand what "hardcore" means. Enough with the flexing already. People will play the games they like, and enjoy it the way they see fit. Hardcore has nothing to do with what kind of game they play.
Besides, DarkFall is a pretty easy game considering how easy it is to recover what you've lost. It's a lot more difficult to do so in a game like EVE.
My 2 cents.
if you think its just a patch then i guess you will see
It's not total PVP it has gone soft and the sound of the new expansion worries me I have 6 Eve accounts and am concerned but will have to wait and see how it pans out before judging it. As for DF2.0 not sure if I'll bother until it's been about for a few months. I got bored with DF1 same old shit all the time, not enough love for the game so I deleted both my accounts and have not been back since.
I really hope that DF2.0 is a lot better for everyones sake and that it's evolved in all aspects from DF1
Asbo
I don't know, in the blog it specifically says pvp is set to off when you get in npc cities...so red or not doesn't matter, you can't pvp at all.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Both UO and even original SWG were superior in every way to the thing that is DF.
Too bad many players of DF will never know how good those were from the sandbox perspective (even tho SWG had flagged PvP).
Compared to those, DF is a joke.
As a Darkfall veteran myself, I am of two minds about this.
I understand the OP's perspective and agree with most of it.
I don't believe Darkfall was perfect by any stretch but it was indeed the "best" of its kind.
I think the direction they are going will indeed bring and keep more new players, which is invariably a good thing both from a gameplay and business standpoint.
However, I do think there was a way to solve the issues without creating safe zones. Safe zones, to me, is a lazy solution. An actual crime and punishment system, bounty system, etc could have been a lot more immersive while still being able to allow the "kill anyone anywhere anytime" freedom that this game created.
Personally, once I leave that safe zone I will never return to it, so I don't really have to worry about it, and I do like the idea of a lawful area populated by a large amount of newer or peaceful players, but I wish there were NPC guards, and actual disabling and arrest system.
I mean, I've always thought it was way too easy, unrealistically so, to be a murdering thieving bastard in these games. I myself am a murdering thieving bastard, but I think if there was a lot higher stakes to it, murderers and thieves would have a lot more fun.
The only people who would be negatively affected are cowards and gankers. Just jumping someone in the wild and killing them is not ganking IMO, that's just a fight. Specifically targetting noobies however, is ganking, as well as pointless and cowardly. And also...no fun. Just boring and easy.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
we havent heard if its goign to be in or not its a feature no one wants
All I read was, "I am da shit" "I am a vet" and "I am a vet"..
Lets let the game release before we deside that you are not that good you think you are?
*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.
Obviously you've never played Darkfall or EVE to any extent of time. When you don't know what you're talking about it's best to not type.
I can tell you haven't played DF for any extent of time. Perhaps you should talk to some of the EVE players out there who will be returning to Darkfall. They can enlighten you since apparently you enjoy throwing remarks out that you clearly have no clue about.
As to your hardcore comment, it's usually used in gaming reference to a group of players that go the extra mile when it comes to gaming. I would agree that there are people who play EQ and other PvE games hardcore. But what he meant by hardcore has nothing to do with the actual defniition of the word.
To give an example would be Diablo2: Hardcore mode. It has nothing to do with the literal definition of the word and more to do with the mindset of the gamer playing that mode. I believe his intention in use of the word was that people who do play Darkfall tend to put way more hours into the game than most players put into their game, I'd be willing to guess that on a basis of hours played per character, Darkfall is quite a bit higher than every other MMO out there.
All you guys out there who act like EVE is some great masterpiece compared to DF are way off your rocker, I've played both for years. In small clans, large alliances, and everything in between. They're the same game in most ways except in one you have a spaceship and in another you swing your sword. The combat itself is quite a bit more difficult because of the FPS style in Darkfall, but EVE certainly has it's advantages when it comes to population and fodder to play against.
Sennheiser
Assist
Thage
You seem to be the one throwing remarks that you clearly have no clue about. I've played Darkfall from Launch up to late 2010. And yes, it is extremely easy to recover items you've lost. Perhaps it is you who hasn't played long enough, who knows...
I'm aware that he wasn't using the word "hardcore" in a way that has to do with it's actual definition. He uses the word hardcore to class himself above other players, to make himself look better a.k.a flexing. Which is actually fairly common from Forumfall, and a terrible misuse of the word (as with many other words used by gamers today). And no, Darkfall doesn't have the highest average hours played per character. Considering how most clans are so inactive that they barely ever log on unless there's a siege going on...I don't think I need to explain this further (and that was before the wipe issue was mentionned).
Finally, I think it's quite ridiculous to claim that DarkFall and EVE are "the same games in most ways". Ignoring the gameplay aspect (combat) and setting (Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi), the only thing DF and EVE have in common is it's FFA PvP with Full Loot nature. I'm hesitating to put clan warfare in there as well, but the diplomacy aspect of EVE is on such a different level that I'm not sure I'd say they're alike. The economy plays a much larger aspect of EVE as well with players that can truely dedicate themselves at it and be better than others. Whereas in DF the economy is often limited within ones Clan or Alliance with little trading outside of it, and accessibility to all skills has rendered most players entirely self-sufficient, with gathering and crafting used as an activity when going AFK or multitasking to gain stats.
Even the "vets" qqing will be there