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Smedley: "EverQuest Next will be the world's largest sandbox-style MMO ever made"
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Most PVP games are carebear compared to EQ's PVE raids. With our guild we spent 3 months trying to defeat The Beast in Underfoot, 5 days per week, with 54 people every night with most 90% raid attendance, each try accounts for about 3 hours or raiding, next to our regular raiding schedule. That's just one mob, some guilds spent a year on this single mob.
Using carebear in relationship to PVE is going to get laughed at on the EQ forums, just a warning, most PVP players are way more carebear than the PVE guilds from EQ. The EQ PVP server is one of the last in progression because most PVP players are casuals and they lack any discipline to attend raids or do theorising.
+1
Sandbox NOT = PvP and especially NOT = FFA PvP.
People who think Smedley doesn't know the definition don't quite know it themselves, apparently.
we may have to rewrite what a sandbox is if EQN has the terrain features that were talked about.
ShakyMO "Exactly, you can't have progression pve in a sandbox, its the opposite of sandbox.
EQ was a themepark
EQ2 was a themepark
EQ fans love progression pve.
Therefore EQN will have progression pve and will be a themepark. Although it may have some sandbox elements around crafting / housing / farming / Terra forming etc.. the very act of having the Linearality of a progression pve endgame (well endgame full stop) will make it not a sandbox."
UO had progression Pve,
SWG has progression pve,
Istaria has progression pve
Ryzom has very little pvp (pre-planned attacks on farms only), so it is essentially a pve sandbox (I don't think it's very sandboxy but I am of the minority with this one)
Most sandboxes do have a progression in pve.
Crafting is normally pve, building is normally pve, there are lots of ways to change the world that do not involve pve.
Pvp is not synonymous with sandbox
edit - but your right EQ was a themepark through and through, and I do not expectg EQnext to actually be a sandbox however it may be more sandboxy.
And people are finally waking up to the fact that the devs lie too. He better deliver on his promise because a lot of people aren't buying the lies anymore.
My money is on him lieing though until he can prove otherwise. I won't hold my breath.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
What I mean by progression pve is tiered raiding and what have you. You have to grind raid x to do raid y, then grind raid y to do raid z.
That is linear and in no way sandbox whatsoever, the two don't mix.
First: The definition of a "MMO carebear": " 1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths."
Second, I don't know where you are coming from, but Sandboxes core principle is freedom of choice. And not allowing to attack anyone, at anytime, let it be PC's or NPC's, is against this principle. I don't mind if PvP is disallowed on half of the servers, call them "PvE" servers if you like. In my mind, artificial restrictions make the sand leak out of the box. Also, RPG's, especially MMORPG's without death penalties are extremely boring (Usually RPG's are permadeath, with the option to load your game). This justifies player item drops upon death. And to PvE raiding, if you fail to down a boss for months, then what? What did you lose? Some gold thats value has been inflated? How about building a city for months and then losing it within 48 hours, have you ever experienced that? Also, "hardcore PvE only" players calling people carebears amuses me. Its like Unreal Tournament players who play against godlike bots laughing at those who play is at as an e-sport.
MMORPG AI is inferior to human mind.
EQ was not a theme park, it was not a sandbox! What it was was an open world to explore. We did not make the cities, we did not create huge castles, we adventured, we explored, and we did it in groups (mainly) while socializing, yes we raided, but we were not guided on rails with quest boxes and advanced map tools that lead us thru a theme park like game. Hell we didnt even really have mapping when it first launched we had /loc...
so people get it right and stop calling EQ something it wasn't , and that goes both ways.
[quote]Originally posted by Zekiah
[b][quote] Originally posted by yorkforce I think the fact he said sandbox 'style' is a prelude to a get-out-clause.[/b][/quote]
Prolly. That did seem like an unnecessary tacked on portion. "style"
EQ started as a psudo sandbox and became a terrible themepark as the expantions came out.
Well there isn't enough information to prove it either way so the only thing you are expressing is your fear of dissapointment. When people grow up they start to learn they can be excited about something prior to proof knowing the outcome. Until more information comes available you can either continue expressing your insecurity or you can sit back and wait for information.
I simply say this because personally I would feel like a bit of a pansy crying on the forums about being afraid a game lets you down 2 years in the future. I think we can all agree that there is no certainty of success for any mmo.
You stay sassy!
And that did not happen untill MUCH later ie LDoN and Omens of War expansion. I would never consider EQ a sandbox either. It was not. What EQ "was", was an open world. One that is by and far more challenging then almost any present day modern MMO is currently, and that goes for theme park or sandbox
Well my two copper is,
Smedley is saying the right things. Nice to hear people in the industry at least talking about getting itself out of the WOW clone rut. That is the most important thing I got out of this.
They are trying a "sandbox style" game. I like this idea.
It is going to be free to try, so I am sure I will try it.
If it is a fun game I will play it and likely pay some cash.
If it is not a fun game I will not play it. That simple.
Cautiously optimistic is the route I am going, but happy to hear some changes in the pardigm are in the pipeline.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
I am a pragmatist so I have the same opinion but I also wish to see the side affects of such a major release. It's success or failure will have a direct result on the direction of future mmos. I certainly would love to see an enjoyable game I can play myself but even moderate successes with some of the many sandbox style mmos being developed right now will impact the direction of mmo development for years. This interests me greatly.
You stay sassy!
It was themepark through and through. Yes you could go lots of places, you could in vanilla wow too.
But all monks were the same, all warriors the same... The classes were completely linear. Completely loot driven game, crafts were crap compared to loot. Zones were still designed for particular levels, start out close to city and gradually move further away.
And the big one. Absolutely no way to impact the world either by territory control, crafting, building, terraforming, questions.. nothing nada zip.
A themepark through and through.
Exploring, socializing... that can and does happen in every game.
And personally as far as EQ going sandbox is interesting, what I am even more interested in will be finding out if they are going to truly be making it challenging, and a more social game? One that promotes grouping? one that isn't bogged down with dumb quests located on the in game maps? Are they going to to try and achieve the depth of the original with things like complex factions? Are they going to bring back the immersion like truly dark nights and dark dungeons? Are they going to have utility spells and buffs or are they going to try to water the game down so everyone is equal in all aspects?
These are the things that really I'm hoping to see. Being able to build a player city would be icing on the cake. But if the cake is dry or stale and tastes like all the other cakes, then what's the point?
Ah. That I agree with in essence.
I don't mind that someone might need to conquer a particular dungeon in order to get a particular weapon that is needed to kill something that can't be killed without it, or maybe a key to access a closed door.
But other than that having raids to get gear to do raids to get gear.... your right, not really sandboxy.
You can call it a theme park all you want, however you are wrong. A theme park leads you thru the park with a Map from one ride to the next like WOW did. EQ was all exporation based.
I took the term "themepark" at face value. A closed in area with groups of people manning specific rides. These would be the quest giver clusters giving quests for the mobs 30 feet away.
I take "sandbox" to be like Rungard's picture. A blank patch of moldable sand at which to build things.
Items like PvP and tiered raid progression have been tacked on because other games that have come before it featured those things. That doesn't mean it defines either term. You have to take one feature at a time because one can have an effect on the other.
For example, tier based raiding in a sandbox seems fine for me as long as it's the access that's progressive and materials are given, not gear. Why? Because in a "sandbox", or to build, crafting is very important.
I'm pretty sure EQN will be just as Smed smartly and specifically quoted "sandbox style".
Says who?......oh wait........:) Still at least Smedly isn't quite as bad as EA at misrepresenting their products.
I'll stand by initial assertion that when people like Smokejumper talk about motion capture webcam spell weaving and smed is talking about destroying almost the entire world and EQN might be on the playstation and PC.. we have no idea what the fuck this is, and silly debates on what EQ1 or GW2 are or are not is, well, silly.
Who cares what EQ1 was, Brad McQuaid was snorting people's stolen pain killers in the bathroom and I was 13 years old when all that went down, its a different time.
It's fairly reasonable that SOE came to the conclusion that they can never defeat WoW, and decided to take the other, and much clammored for, section of the market, "sandbox" style gaming. Not because Smed and co. love you, or love sandbox games, or care, its because its the only way they can find a niche in the current MMO market.
Free Realms and EQ2 such ass, and Blizzard is laughing at them like SOE laughed at Richard Garriot's ponytail in 1999, they're willing to try something different because the square peg isn't fitting in the round hole anymore, themepark titles are failing.
And I'm totally ok with that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbEj1CIpuU
I'll also assme that people at SoE really do care about people enjoying the game. Sure, the higher ups have to make sure the bills are paid but I believe they are gamers just like the rest of us, well at least those making the games. I have no proof to the contrary.
Damn it'll probablly be an Excel plugin then. Excel is a real sandbox