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eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

So back in the day of early rpg's we had to put out a lot more effort for the game and yet we still enjoyed it. For example, when I played Bard's Tale, we would actually make maps by moving from sector to sector and writing down all the features. You had to listen to what was said to you because you might only get that information once. We would make notes of quests and monsters and do all sorts of tedious stuff resulting in a folder full of various bits of stored information.

Nowadays, you want to see what you've explored, press M. If you want to see what that quest objetive was, look in your journal.  It's like the world of rpg's has turned into Talk to the NPC with the (!) then turn your character to follow the arrow on your minimap until you see the quest marker, kill stuff, loot stuff, walk back.  These games are so handheld a full-lobotomy patient could master the game.

People smash through content that takes a developer years to make, burning it up in less than a month. People complain about things are too easy, not enough content, etc. People pay monthly subscriptions so they can have the game force them to play less (it's called raiding, you can do it once a week on a chance to get loot) with more difficult content that is more difficult to organize.

 

So let me ask you this. Would you play an MMORPG that has a journal you actually have to write things in or it stays empty, with no world map,( just the minimap showing you the immediate area) and with no fancy arrows pointing you exactly where to go? Would you play a game where you actually had to pay attention?

 

 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

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Comments

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon

    I liked games back then and I like them now. I still go on these crazy roguelike binges every once in a while even today.

     

    But I have to admit, there is something nice about not having to spend countless hours drawing my own maps for games like Legend of Grimrock. I remember having graph paper filled with maps from M&M. It was sort of part of the gameplay in a way.

     

    And really, with the accessability of the internet, no piece of information will ever be kept "secret" (it possibly could be in the most extreme cases). If someone misses that bit of text, they can always find it somewhere, either through a simple question on a forum or a wiki. Those types of games just don't work like they used to when th internet was a bunch of bulletin boards and chat rooms.

     

    So no, I don't think it would work the way you want it to in the current internet environment. Most people would just look stuff up that has already been figured out leaving the people that actually do spend the time to do things in the dust. Not that it really matters to those people, but I think the game would come off as more "featureless" than "old school."

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member


    Originally posted by colddog04 I liked games back then and I like them now. I still go on these crazy roguelike binges every once in a while even today.   But I have to admit, there is something nice about not having to spend countless hours drawing my own maps for games like Legend of Grimrock. I remember having graph paper filled with maps from M&M. It was sort of part of the gameplay in a way.   And really, with the accessability of the internet, no piece of information will ever be kept "secret" (it possibly could be in the most extreme cases). If someone misses that bit of text, they can always find it somewhere, either through a simple question on a forum or a wiki. Those types of games just don't work like they used to when th internet was a bunch of bulletin boards and chat rooms.   So no, I don't think it would work the way you want it to in the current internet environment. Most people would just look stuff up that has already been figured out leaving the people that actually do spend the time to do things in the dust. Not that it really matters to those people, but I think the game would come off as more "featureless" than "old school."
     

    Same here. While I can't stand what modern quests have morphed into, I don't see myself ever writing down quest info or maps. I did the auto map in Grimrock, and I don't think I was robbed of any experience. Now, in a game like Dark Souls, I think it can work out well. The game is designed in such a way that you didn't need to make your own maps, because the world was very diverse and recognizable; you just had to become familiar with it. However, in an MMO, the worlds are so big and open that not having any kind of in-game map system would be draconic.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Those used to be games that I enjoyed as a kid. Now, with a family, a job, and other responsbilities... I have enough that I need to pay attention to without playing games that require critical details be filed and memorized before I move on. When my kids are raised and out of the house and I'm retired from work, then I'll definitely want to get back into that type of gaming. Until then, I'm going through the motions.
  • ToxiaToxia Lake Charles, LAPosts: 1,319Member Uncommon

    I like games that make me think, just not that much.

    I like puzzle rooms ala zelda/tomb raider, where you know WHERE the puzzle is, just not how to solve it. I wouldn't like, say, having to map out the rooms, and FIND the puzzle. If that makes sense.

    Better example- Portal /Portal 2.

    give me something that makes me think like that, and throw it in an adventure game. Done and Sold :)

     

    EDITED to apply to mmorpgs: GW2. There is an underwater cave somewhere, and inside, you have to puzzle around until you figure out how to make the portal work. then you get a nice chest and view as a reward.

    Memorable, at least

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    When we talk about the MMORPG.com hipsters, there's a fine line between 'difficulty' and 'inconvenience'. Many people on this wonderful site believe that a difficult game should have an unfriendly user interface, where a feature that provides convenience (like Legend of Grimrock's automap) is thought of as 'against the spirit of the game', or in MMORPG.com gentleman words, 'carebear'.

     

    The thoughts clearly stem from the fact that these hipsters believe themselves to be better people because they once played a video game on their personal computer some time ago that did not have this automap, and thus forced them to draw out an aerial view of a fictional video game level on a piece of graph paper. This obviously makes these computer gaming veterans 'hard'.

     

    A game that's designed well does not need to enforce artificial difficulty on the player, because the difficulty wouldn't be in the player's interaction with the game (the UI), but in the actual content of the game.

     

    I want difficult games. But I don't see games without convenience features as difficult; instead, I see them as annoying and primitive.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    I guess that some of the things seem easier to me than may be to others.  In the days of walking through areas built from the exact same walls repeated over and over, you needed to map. Now with 3D landscapes, a person can remember where they need to go just as easily as they can remember how to walk to the store as long as they paid attention somewhat.

    Writing things in the journal can be quick and easy especially if you're using a form of shorthand, and you don't need to write out a story, you just need to write what you need to know. "Go 2 Billville, talk 2 Bill, etc"

     

    I guess I'm looking at things by how people say they finished a game like GW2 in a week or two. Seriously, its just not possible to take in everything that the game offers in that amount of time while playing a healthy amount.  And I am not talking about gathering exotics and legendaries, I'm just talking about the story content happening out in the gameworld. 

    People just rush rush rush through everything and they miss so much.  I guess when it comes to my entertainment, I'm happy enough to take my time with it. I don't play for everyone else's benefit, just my own, so why would I hurry?

     

    Maybe someday, they will give us an install option to turn off these sorts of features. I would truly love to walk out into  a world, and just explore.  

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    I have pages and pages of notes from missions in TSW. It's neat in an "updated old school" kind of way. However, I wouldn't want to have to do that with every game.

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    I said yes, but back in the day UO and EQ came with a world map in the box. And after a while players had mapped all the zones. It's things like that that made the golden age of gaming so sweet. However, I don't see in-game maps as dumbing games down. I think it was the natural progression of things. I guess the game is easier because of it, but only cuz it saves you an alt-tab.
  • YakamomotoYakamomoto Osaka, ARPosts: 363Member

    I'm already playing that game which needs undivided attention, it's TSW.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member


    Originally posted by Khaeros When we talk about the MMORPG.com hipsters, there's a fine line between 'difficulty' and 'inconvenience'. Many people on this wonderful site believe that a difficult game should have an unfriendly user interface, where a feature that provides convenience (like Legend of Grimrock's automap) is thought of as 'against the spirit of the game', or in MMORPG.com gentleman words, 'carebear'.   The thoughts clearly stem from the fact that these hipsters believe themselves to be better people because they once played a video game on their personal computer some time ago that did not have this automap, and thus forced them to draw out an aerial view of a fictional video game level on a piece of graph paper. This obviously makes these computer gaming veterans 'hard'.   A game that's designed well does not need to enforce artificial difficulty on the player, because the difficulty wouldn't be in the player's interaction with the game (the UI), but in the actual content of the game.   I want difficult games. But I don't see games without convenience features as difficult; instead, I see them as annoying and primitive.
     

    I think a certain degree of "inconvenience" is appealing. To be honest, I really, really, hate the standard for questing these days. If all I'm required to do is skip past the dialogue walk to some marker and kill/grab/place something, it completely disengages me. Like I mentioned earlier, Dark Souls worked really well not having a minimap. I think it really depends on the game to determine what level of convenience is necessary. Sometimes, inconvenient things can make a game challenging in the right way. The problem with these features is that they have to be implemented correctly to suit the game. I mean, if you just stripped the minimap out of WoW, it would be terrible. However, in a game like Grimrock, it's a little more appropriate to go either way. Personally, I played with it in, but I don't think that having it removed would break it like it would other games. It would even be more engaging on some level, because you'd actually have to get familiarized with the dungeon (although they might have to make them a little more interesting to fully justify that angle). My point is that's it's not so black and white. And while I agree that having to write down game information seems not very fun, I think that inconveniences can certainly help engage the player.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto

    I'm already playing that game which needs undivided attention, it's TSW.

    Not really. Perhaps 5% of the quests force you to understand real world knowledge and apply it to some of the puzzles. Most people likely just hit the internet for the answers anyway. Besides those 5% of the quests, the rest of the game is pretty much like any other themepark with better voiceover and better story.

     

    1. It has quest icons above everyone's head (or above items). 

    2. The quest log records everything for you so you never have to write anything down.

    3. Quest objectives are marked on the map.

    4. People busted through the content of that game in 2 weeks just like every other theme park.

     

    I don't think TSW really compares to any of the old school games the OP was referrring to when it comes to how one has to constantly be paying attention and taking notes outside the game including mapping and whatnot. It's pretty much a typical themepark with a solid story with a few interesting quests thrown in.

  • ToxiaToxia Lake Charles, LAPosts: 1,319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I guess that some of the things seem easier to me than may be to others.  In the days of walking through areas built from the exact same walls repeated over and over, you needed to map. Now with 3D landscapes, a person can remember where they need to go just as easily as they can remember how to walk to the store as long as they paid attention somewhat.

    Writing things in the journal can be quick and easy especially if you're using a form of shorthand, and you don't need to write out a story, you just need to write what you need to know. "Go 2 Billville, talk 2 Bill, etc"

     

    I guess I'm looking at things by how people say they finished a game like GW2 in a week or two. Seriously, its just not possible to take in everything that the game offers in that amount of time while playing a healthy amount.  And I am not talking about gathering exotics and legendaries, I'm just talking about the story content happening out in the gameworld. 

    People just rush rush rush through everything and they miss so much.  I guess when it comes to my entertainment, I'm happy enough to take my time with it. I don't play for everyone else's benefit, just my own, so why would I hurry?

     

    Maybe someday, they will give us an install option to turn off these sorts of features. I would truly love to walk out into  a world, and just explore.  

    I think you're taking the wrong attitude here.

    Most people( i assume) aren't interested in rushing to max level. They sat down, and found themselves enjoying the game enough to want to play it that much in those two weeks.

    That's what i want in a game. Make me WANT to play it all damn day and see all it has to offer in a few weeks(if thats all it has to offer).

    That's my experience, anyways. I liked the game, played as i wanted, have 4 level 80's, exotics, etc. I didnt rush. There just wasn't any MMO ish restrictions to stop me from forging on.

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto

    I'm already playing that game which needs undivided attention, it's TSW.

    This is one of the things which makes TSW great, you need to listen / read everything.

    But I guess I'm with the first few posters, nowadays with less gametime, and the web and wikis full with information, I think for most of us one game with some attention-focus is enough. I mean, even TSW could gather only cca. 200k people, and during the free trials the channels were spammed with "what's the code at the church" and stuff. Beside the veteran players I'm not sure anybody else would be happily go back to make notes, and paying attention to every detail.

    Trend is quite the opposite, I just tried RaiderZ, they make these things even more obsolete. I mean, with the new mechanics in mmo's, what's left for wikis? Drop lists. Well, in RaiderZ they put a nice floating tooltip box to every item, if it's a requred one (like in a recipe) then the box tells which mobs/nodes drops it, the level range is there too :) and if it's in the inventory, then the tooltip tells what can you craft from it, where should you take it. You don't need even the slightest use of your memory :)

     

    (to op: I still have the notebooks with EoB and Bard's Tale maps :) and with Monkey Island's fencing riposte list)

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Basically yes.  It would have to be quality game though.  Not necesarily big blockbuster Swtor or GW2 budget mmorpg, I am not that crazy.  But no low-budget Mortal Online / DFO / Tale of the Desert / etc   crap.

    Oh and no cash shop, currency selling, rmah and other similar ideas.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Toxia
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I guess that some of the things seem easier to me than may be to others.  In the days of walking through areas built from the exact same walls repeated over and over, you needed to map. Now with 3D landscapes, a person can remember where they need to go just as easily as they can remember how to walk to the store as long as they paid attention somewhat.

    Writing things in the journal can be quick and easy especially if you're using a form of shorthand, and you don't need to write out a story, you just need to write what you need to know. "Go 2 Billville, talk 2 Bill, etc"

     

    I guess I'm looking at things by how people say they finished a game like GW2 in a week or two. Seriously, its just not possible to take in everything that the game offers in that amount of time while playing a healthy amount.  And I am not talking about gathering exotics and legendaries, I'm just talking about the story content happening out in the gameworld. 

    People just rush rush rush through everything and they miss so much.  I guess when it comes to my entertainment, I'm happy enough to take my time with it. I don't play for everyone else's benefit, just my own, so why would I hurry?

     

    Maybe someday, they will give us an install option to turn off these sorts of features. I would truly love to walk out into  a world, and just explore.  

    I think you're taking the wrong attitude here.

    Most people( i assume) aren't interested in rushing to max level. They sat down, and found themselves enjoying the game enough to want to play it that much in those two weeks.

    That's what i want in a game. Make me WANT to play it all damn day and see all it has to offer in a few weeks(if thats all it has to offer).

    That's my experience, anyways. I liked the game, played as i wanted, have 4 level 80's, exotics, etc. I didnt rush. There just wasn't any MMO ish restrictions to stop me from forging on.

    I am hoping that you are right with most people aren't interested in rushing to max level, as I am one of them. I was actually disappointed that the halloween event put my one toon to 80.  Thats why the poll is there, to see if I'm not alone.   :)

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    I remember a NES game (Dungeon Magic maybe?) where you had to write down hundreds and hundreds of spell combinations which you could combine and create yourself. Good times.

    It's too bad the NAO generation can't have that.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    im more of a "earn all the things you take for granted" guy.

    you start with nothing. Good luck. As someone else said on this forum "beat a skeleton to powder and take the shitty rusty sword"

    You want a minimap. Earn it. its out there.

    you want a journal. earn it. its out there

    you want quick travel. earn it. start with feet, then horses, teleporters, flying dragons etc...

    want to know where to go on a quest. Get the spell and cast it.  

    you want  guild chat.. earn it..

    3rd person view...earn that too.

    Theres a way to earn everything in the game. I dont even think you shold be able to see your numbers until youve achieved some mastery that allows you to see them.

    im not at all against convienience in a game, but i certainly dont think that you should start with it. Like everything in this world, when you start with nothing you appreciate the convienience. When you start with everything you expect entitlement.

    Dont take anything for granted. Everything is content. Or could be.

     

    image

  • ToxiaToxia Lake Charles, LAPosts: 1,319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rungard

    im more of a "earn all the things you take for granted" guy.

    you start with nothing. Good luck. As someone else said on this forum "beat a skeleton to powder and take the shitty rusty sword"

    You want a minimap. Earn it. its out there.

    you want a journal. earn it. its out there

    you want quick travel. earn it. start with feet, then horses, teleporters, flying dragons etc...

    want to know where to go on a quest. Get the spell and cast it.  

    you want  guild chat.. earn it..

    3rd person view...earn that too.

    Theres a way to earn everything in the game. I dont even think you shold be able to see your numbers until youve achieved some mastery that allows you to see them.

    im not at all against convienience in a game, but i certainly dont think that you should start with it. Like everything in this world, when you start with nothing you appreciate the convienience. When you start with everything you expect entitlement.

    Dont take anything for granted. Everything is content. Or could be.

     

    image

    I dont know what game you've sold me on, but congratulations. WTB

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    I remember playing Wizardry back in the day, and having to use graph paper to keep from getting lost.  It was a lot of fun for some reason, although I doubt I'd enjoy it today.

    You make me like charity

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    While I certainly enjoy challenges in games, I certainly don't have the time to write down every little thing I do in the game in the hopes that I'll have it if/when I need it.  I'd rather just play.  I like themeparks, and I like sandboxes.  I'll have fun in either, but I don't want the tedium that you're describing.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,002Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    I remember playing Wizardry back in the day, and having to use graph paper to keep from getting lost.  It was a lot of fun for some reason, although I doubt I'd enjoy it today.

    Yeah, I feel the same way, at the time I had no complaints about graphing, in fact, I was always trying to perfect my techniques.

    But I certainly welcomed the addition of the automap.  Don't think I'd want to leave home without it.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I liked games back then and I like them now. I still go on these crazy roguelike binges every once in a while even today.

    Nostalgia binges. Check. I even fire up the tele every once in a while and watch old episodes with Farrah (To everyone born after 1981: Never mind. Also, get off my lawn.)

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    I remember playing Wizardry back in the day, and having to use graph paper to keep from getting lost.  It was a lot of fun for some reason, although I doubt I'd enjoy it today.

    Yeah, I feel the same way, at the time I had no complaints about graphing, in fact, I was always trying to perfect my techniques.

    But I certainly welcomed the addition of the automap.  Don't think I'd want to leave home without it.

     

    Well lack of any map is only thing with I would be on a fence today. I think I would prefer 'world map' in mmorpg.

    BUT

    every other thing like: no quest markers, no arrows pointing my way, no hand-holding that blings and generally hold my hand so I am not confused. Damn I really miss those.

  • ReizlaReizla AlkmaarPosts: 3,301Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    So back in the day of early rpg's we had to put out a lot more effort for the game and yet we still enjoyed it. For example, when I played Bard's Tale, we would actually make maps by moving from sector to sector and writing down all the features. You had to listen to what was said to you because you might only get that information once. We would make notes of quests and monsters and do all sorts of tedious stuff resulting in a folder full of various bits of stored information.

    Nowadays, you want to see what you've explored, press M. If you want to see what that quest objetive was, look in your journal.  It's like the world of rpg's has turned into Talk to the NPC with the (!) then turn your character to follow the arrow on your minimap until you see the quest marker, kill stuff, loot stuff, walk back.  These games are so handheld a full-lobotomy patient could master the game.

    People smash through content that takes a developer years to make, burning it up in less than a month. People complain about things are too easy, not enough content, etc. People pay monthly subscriptions so they can have the game force them to play less (it's called raiding, you can do it once a week on a chance to get loot) with more difficult content that is more difficult to organize.

    So let me ask you this. Would you play an MMORPG that has a journal you actually have to write things in or it stays empty, with no world map,( just the minimap showing you the immediate area) and with no fancy arrows pointing you exactly where to go? Would you play a game where you actually had to pay attention?

    I LOVED The Bard's Tale. Back then one of my most favorite graphical *LOL* RPG's. Of course, Level 9 adventures were on the #1 spot, and there you had to pay attention and keep notes while playing or you'd miss a lot... Best RPG after that still is Baldur's Gate with a limited journey log, where you still had to keep notes on what to do. But after tha, most RPG's (both single and MMO) went down hill indeed. As you say, press M and you see most (if not all) objectives of where to go and do your thing. One of the things I love from LotRo is that you can toggle the quest helper off and you actually have to read the quests again and search a bit (as it was at launch). I wish more (MMO)RPG developers would go back to those old times!

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    I remember playing Wizardry back in the day, and having to use graph paper to keep from getting lost.  It was a lot of fun for some reason, although I doubt I'd enjoy it today.

    Yeah, I feel the same way, at the time I had no complaints about graphing, in fact, I was always trying to perfect my techniques.

    But I certainly welcomed the addition of the automap.  Don't think I'd want to leave home without it.

     

    Well lack of any map is only thing with I would be on a fence today. I think I would prefer 'world map' in mmorpg.

    BUT

    every other thing like: no quest markers, no arrows pointing my way, no hand-holding that blings and generally hold my hand so I am not confused. Damn I really miss those.

    I'd love to see an MMO with no in-game map, but have a cartography profession that, through some game mechanic, allowed player-submitted maps for people to buy and sell, which deteriorated after enough use or time.  Something where you literally had to draw out a map the old school way of using landmarks and major geographical features.  None of this "open a map and see exactly where you are" crap.

    You make me like charity

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