although I would have preferred an EVE approach to security for starting areas, I guess that this change will only be good for the general population of Darkfall.
However, the trully ideal approach would be to allow pvp but also allow players to call guards. But apparently that's too hard to implement for AV.
This is my stance on it really.
Allow killing anywhere but in main hubs have guards roaming and towers watching. You hit someone you get ganked.
EvE is the best model. You can do what you want but in hubs its hard to get away with it. Not being able to hurt someone in a zone is just as unrealistic as killing anyone, anywhere without consequence.
Allow killing anywhere but in main hubs have guards roaming and towers watching. You hit someone you get ganked.
Yeah right, that would help new players from griefers....not.
So if a new player try to kill a goblin, the griefer just run infront of him and get hit. The new player gets insta killed by towers and the griefer laughs.
My only objection to the new alignment system is that murderers and flagged players can walk into safezones. Within a month, 80% of the playerbase will be red because there is no reason not to be. If red players couldn`t enter safezones, that number might be reduced to 50%.
I think it is good. It would be more realistic if it was enforced by NPCs but seeing as there are a lot of exploitable loopholes in such a system, disabling PvP is just as good. Makes sense that you cant duke it out in civilized areas.
Originally posted by GwapoJosh I like this.. Vets ganking new players was the absolute biggest reason people quit playing. I do think that new players should be able to kick the the crap out of each other in these "safe zones" though
You never played DF i see.
Vets were never busy ganking new players. In fact most vets would spot a new player and give them a bag of loot to help them out.
When the game launched new players ganked new players and that was a problem since everyone was in the same area though.
In DF vets were busy harassing other clans they were enemy too and looking for quality pvp not an easy gank...anyway there is never anything worth looting off a noob so they go for the well geared players.
I should add, your purposed scenario is always a fantasy that people who dislike games like this envision as reality in game, for whatever reason. Reality of DF was, aside from launch, that the starter areas were mostly quiet and empty, the only vets around were the ones who were not criminal and allowed to use the npc cities, and would spam craft junk, always looking for noobs to give their spam crafted items to. Of course wandering near a hostile clans holding might get you ganked, no one would dry loot a noob with crap, and usually it would spark a conversation ect that would result in advice.
Not the fantasy hell where unstoppable vets stomped every new player they could find, no matter how good the fantasy sounds to your point of view on FFA full loot games.
Originally posted by GwapoJosh I like this.. Vets ganking new players was the absolute biggest reason people quit playing. I do think that new players should be able to kick the the crap out of each other in these "safe zones" though
You never played DF i see.
Vets were never busy ganking new players. In fact most vets would spot a new player and give them a bag of loot to help them out.
Wrong - I played a good 3-4 months at various stages of the game ; I was fodder for vets. That and the lack of real sand is why I left the game each and every time. The few times I asked why a Vet killed me I always got the same response " I needed throw away armor, or reagents. " I have many mates who also left for like reasons multiple times, Vet's were not this merry band of newbie friendly players. Some where ... those formed and supported the NEW Clan, most however were not and the contiual politics and agression towards the NEW clan is obvious testimony to it.
In a FFA Full loot game you need sheep just as much as you need the wolves, to sustain a healthy population of sheep you must have a safe area either forced by mechanics or by players themselves to protect those sheep at times. Granted a proper system within those safe zones should exsist to push the sheep out at times, for better loot and crafting.
Originally posted by GwapoJosh I like this.. Vets ganking new players was the absolute biggest reason people quit playing. I do think that new players should be able to kick the the crap out of each other in these "safe zones" though
You never played DF i see.
Vets were never busy ganking new players. In fact most vets would spot a new player and give them a bag of loot to help them out.
Thats complete BS, there where entire guilds whos sole purpose was killing noobs. There was never a shortage of douchbags in Darkfall. My first day back for the current free play had "vets" trying to party/guild me just to gank me in town.
Wrong - I played a good 3-4 months at various stages of the game ; I was fodder for vets. That and the lack of real sand is why I left the game each and every time. The few times I asked why a Vet killed me I always got the same response " I needed throw away armor, or reagents. " I have many mates who also left for like reasons multiple times, Vet's were not this merry band of newbie friendly players. Some where ... those formed and supported the NEW Clan, most however were not and the contiual politics and agression towards the NEW clan is obvious testimony to it.
In a FFA Full loot game you need sheep just as much as you need the wolves, to sustain a healthy population of sheep you must have a safe area either forced by mechanics or by players themselves to protect those sheep at times. Granted a proper system within those safe zones should exsist to push the sheep out at times, for better loot and crafting.
How many times did you get ganked in those 4 months, in how many hours played? How many times did you get repeatedly killed by the same person, over and over and over again?
Not all vets run around with sweetness and flowers no. You tend to end up dead a fair few times. Still I think back and can't really recall any strings of deaths, or any time someone griefed me over and over. I can though recall having a bank ram packed with stuff, most of which was given to me by random vets who could have simply smashed me into the ground at the time.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I think it sounds like a good idea. I'll admit, I missed the bus on Darkfall and always regretted it, but I did play UO. I really liked the "cities as safe areas" system. Of course, in UO, if you were a murderer it was pretty much suicide going near a major city for long. I like that system. The idea of "reds" being able to hang out in the cities sounds bad to me. I can see some heavy gate camping happening if you can follow someone out of the city, kill them and then run back into the city for refuge. Not gonna work. Follow UO's system and it's perfect.
Safe zones are a bad idea. It will just be abused in creative ways.
This is a pvp based game. For them to try and turn it into a pve based game they may as well give up as the game has little pve content and the little it does haven't isn't that goood in the first place.
the towers with some adjustments were a much better option.
They could have built of that and tried adding more factional content pvp to go along with the clans based pvp. Factional pvp seems prefered to pve types imo.
If you the pve type you more then likely won't like the game and will leave for any of the better options after not long.
As to those asking for a PVE server it just doesn't work. Very few developers can balance the gameplay for both sides fairly. Also, the game really have very limited PVE content and there would be basically nothing to do. The only real content imo is grinding gear and sieges (pvp). So, unless you just like grinding on mobs what are you looking to do lol.
While I'd love to debate the nessecities behind safe guarding the sheep, its not nessecary. The systems for safe areas are in the game, as far as we've been told. The only real discussion to be had here is the current implementation, its obvious sheep ( not meant as a deragotive ) need safety. Towers didn't cut it in DF1 , to many loopholes that were exploited. Are these safe zones going to be abused as well? Sure ... the crowd that DF attracts sadly contains those who will always find a way to abuse the system. Developers will never be able to curve the abuse either.
Originally posted by Zylaxx All they need is a PvE only server and maybe it might get some looksies.
I like PvE in a MMO, but I also like PvP. I would have like a Faction vs faction ruleset server. That would be fun. All PvE builds up your PvP faction in return.
Originally posted by Zylaxx All they need is a PvE only server and maybe it might get some looksies.
I agree.
DF1 was a gank-fest, a**hats gone wild. I'd love to see a PvE Darkfall server with PvP in certain zones. They'd get a TON more people playing id they did but I doubt they'll do it.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
However, the trully ideal approach would be to allow pvp but also allow players to call guards. But apparently that's too hard to implement for AV.
Problem with guards or any retaliation mechanics is damage/health ratio.
It isn't much of a problem in EVE since you need relatively a lot of damage to take things down but in DF you kill stuff just in a few hits and there is no protection against naked gank squads.
Well gank squads in EVE can take stuff down quickly, that's the point of doing it in a group.
How you prevent that is by having a meaningful and punishing alignment system.
Kill someone who is blue in an npc town? Go red and take a stat/skill loss.
Kill someone else who is red or war dec'd in a town? No impact.
But that's too hard for AV apparently.
On your earlier comment on not enough stuff to do, well given Ships and the like are missing at launch for the main part, I fear there is going to be even less content. Starting to worry about it all tbh.
How would any of that you suggested would solve the issue?
Originally posted by Zylaxx All they need is a PvE only server and maybe it might get some looksies.
I agree.
DF1 was a gank-fest, a**hats gone wild. I'd love to see a PvE Darkfall server with PvP in certain zones. They'd get a TON more people playing id they did but I doubt they'll do it.
For it to do that, first it would need to be turned into a real sandbox first. Right now it's just a THEMEPARK with the Theme being PvP. That's lame. Needs more fun PvE and sandbox gameplay to be fun for a PvE server idea like that.
Well gank squads in EVE can take stuff down quickly, that's the point of doing it in a group.
How you prevent that is by having a meaningful and punishing alignment system.
Kill someone who is blue in an npc town? Go red and take a stat/skill loss.
Kill someone else who is red or war dec'd in a town? No impact.
But that's too hard for AV apparently.
On your earlier comment on not enough stuff to do, well given Ships and the like are missing at launch for the main part, I fear there is going to be even less content. Starting to worry about it all tbh.
How would any of that you suggested would solve the issue?
Not sure if serious.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well gank squads in EVE can take stuff down quickly, that's the point of doing it in a group.
How you prevent that is by having a meaningful and punishing alignment system.
Kill someone who is blue in an npc town? Go red and take a stat/skill loss.
Kill someone else who is red or war dec'd in a town? No impact.
But that's too hard for AV apparently.
On your earlier comment on not enough stuff to do, well given Ships and the like are missing at launch for the main part, I fear there is going to be even less content. Starting to worry about it all tbh.
How would any of that you suggested would solve the issue?
Not sure if serious.
new players being attacked. I ask how that will stop vets from killing new players. a stat lost? well that still wouldnt stop a vet from killing a new player.
new players being attacked. I ask how that will stop vets from killing new players. a stat lost? well that still wouldnt stop a vet from killing a new player.
So you are saying a loss/punishment mechanic doesn't prevent out and out noob ganking? Because it clearly would.
Or are you saying that it should just be completely impossible to gank noobs? Because A) That's not how it works (well) in EVE, Where is the cut off point for "noob", C) Having some risk is part of the point of such games.
Not that it is really worth debating, it's not what they have done anyway.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I don't see it as a problem. Yeah, there might be some folks who farm runestones so they can port a crafting alt to whatever capital city they want and craft in peace, but once player cities get populated and the game matures, this won't be too much of an issue. At least I don't think so.
I'm not sure if AV has kept the title quest system intact, and if not, then I'm surely not going to spend too much time in or around my chosen starter city. It's all about finding those meganodes and defending them in mine glory! YEA, SO YE SHALL BE SMOTE DOWN WITH THE WRATH OF...wait...where'd the RP section go?
lol at people asking for pve servers and such. There's a million and one pve first mmos.
That said I would like df to take an eve like approach with varying levels of security.
So you have like high sec for new players, then you have varying degrees of low sec while players are leveling, followed by null sec.
Also make it fairly quick to be pvp viable, like within a month or two, but within one role only. That would differentiate df from eve, perpetuum etc..
Originally posted by Betaguy I think it will be fine and attract more lambs to slaughter...
Who knows, more worried about it getting used for unintended purposes by non noobs tbh. Then there is the greater worry that it is the start of more and more "safe" content.
That said, we will just have to wait and see.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Also make it fairly quick to be pvp viable, like within a month or two, but within one role only. That would differentiate df from eve, perpetuum etc..
From what I've read so far, AV seems confident that a character will be PvP ready fairly quickly with one role. I have no concrete evidence to back up their claims, obviously, but it's promising.
Comments
100% Agreed.
Yeah right, that would help new players from griefers....not.
So if a new player try to kill a goblin, the griefer just run infront of him and get hit. The new player gets insta killed by towers and the griefer laughs.
My only objection to the new alignment system is that murderers and flagged players can walk into safezones. Within a month, 80% of the playerbase will be red because there is no reason not to be. If red players couldn`t enter safezones, that number might be reduced to 50%.
My gaming blog
You never played DF i see.
Vets were never busy ganking new players. In fact most vets would spot a new player and give them a bag of loot to help them out.
When the game launched new players ganked new players and that was a problem since everyone was in the same area though.
In DF vets were busy harassing other clans they were enemy too and looking for quality pvp not an easy gank...anyway there is never anything worth looting off a noob so they go for the well geared players.
I should add, your purposed scenario is always a fantasy that people who dislike games like this envision as reality in game, for whatever reason. Reality of DF was, aside from launch, that the starter areas were mostly quiet and empty, the only vets around were the ones who were not criminal and allowed to use the npc cities, and would spam craft junk, always looking for noobs to give their spam crafted items to. Of course wandering near a hostile clans holding might get you ganked, no one would dry loot a noob with crap, and usually it would spark a conversation ect that would result in advice.
Not the fantasy hell where unstoppable vets stomped every new player they could find, no matter how good the fantasy sounds to your point of view on FFA full loot games.
Wrong - I played a good 3-4 months at various stages of the game ; I was fodder for vets. That and the lack of real sand is why I left the game each and every time. The few times I asked why a Vet killed me I always got the same response " I needed throw away armor, or reagents. " I have many mates who also left for like reasons multiple times, Vet's were not this merry band of newbie friendly players. Some where ... those formed and supported the NEW Clan, most however were not and the contiual politics and agression towards the NEW clan is obvious testimony to it.
In a FFA Full loot game you need sheep just as much as you need the wolves, to sustain a healthy population of sheep you must have a safe area either forced by mechanics or by players themselves to protect those sheep at times. Granted a proper system within those safe zones should exsist to push the sheep out at times, for better loot and crafting.
Thats complete BS, there where entire guilds whos sole purpose was killing noobs. There was never a shortage of douchbags in Darkfall. My first day back for the current free play had "vets" trying to party/guild me just to gank me in town.
How many times did you get ganked in those 4 months, in how many hours played? How many times did you get repeatedly killed by the same person, over and over and over again?
Not all vets run around with sweetness and flowers no. You tend to end up dead a fair few times. Still I think back and can't really recall any strings of deaths, or any time someone griefed me over and over. I can though recall having a bank ram packed with stuff, most of which was given to me by random vets who could have simply smashed me into the ground at the time.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Safe zones are a bad idea. It will just be abused in creative ways.
This is a pvp based game. For them to try and turn it into a pve based game they may as well give up as the game has little pve content and the little it does haven't isn't that goood in the first place.
the towers with some adjustments were a much better option.
They could have built of that and tried adding more factional content pvp to go along with the clans based pvp. Factional pvp seems prefered to pve types imo.
If you the pve type you more then likely won't like the game and will leave for any of the better options after not long.
As to those asking for a PVE server it just doesn't work. Very few developers can balance the gameplay for both sides fairly. Also, the game really have very limited PVE content and there would be basically nothing to do. The only real content imo is grinding gear and sieges (pvp). So, unless you just like grinding on mobs what are you looking to do lol.
I like PvE in a MMO, but I also like PvP. I would have like a Faction vs faction ruleset server. That would be fun. All PvE builds up your PvP faction in return.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree.
DF1 was a gank-fest, a**hats gone wild. I'd love to see a PvE Darkfall server with PvP in certain zones. They'd get a TON more people playing id they did but I doubt they'll do it.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
How would any of that you suggested would solve the issue?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
For it to do that, first it would need to be turned into a real sandbox first. Right now it's just a THEMEPARK with the Theme being PvP. That's lame. Needs more fun PvE and sandbox gameplay to be fun for a PvE server idea like that.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Not sure if serious.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
new players being attacked. I ask how that will stop vets from killing new players. a stat lost? well that still wouldnt stop a vet from killing a new player.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
So you are saying a loss/punishment mechanic doesn't prevent out and out noob ganking? Because it clearly would.
Or are you saying that it should just be completely impossible to gank noobs? Because A) That's not how it works (well) in EVE,
Where is the cut off point for "noob", C) Having some risk is part of the point of such games.
Not that it is really worth debating, it's not what they have done anyway.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm not sure if AV has kept the title quest system intact, and if not, then I'm surely not going to spend too much time in or around my chosen starter city. It's all about finding those meganodes and defending them in mine glory! YEA, SO YE SHALL BE SMOTE DOWN WITH THE WRATH OF...wait...where'd the RP section go?
That said I would like df to take an eve like approach with varying levels of security.
So you have like high sec for new players, then you have varying degrees of low sec while players are leveling, followed by null sec.
Also make it fairly quick to be pvp viable, like within a month or two, but within one role only. That would differentiate df from eve, perpetuum etc..
Who knows, more worried about it getting used for unintended purposes by non noobs tbh. Then there is the greater worry that it is the start of more and more "safe" content.
That said, we will just have to wait and see.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
From what I've read so far, AV seems confident that a character will be PvP ready fairly quickly with one role. I have no concrete evidence to back up their claims, obviously, but it's promising.