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Darkfall: Unholy Wars to have SAFE ZONES?

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Galadourn

    However, the trully ideal approach would be to allow pvp but also allow players to call guards. But apparently that's too hard to implement for AV.

     

    Problem with guards or any retaliation mechanics is damage/health ratio.

    It isn't much of a problem in EVE since you need relatively a lot of damage to take things down but in DF you kill stuff just in a few hits and there is no protection against naked gank squads.

    Well gank squads in EVE can take stuff down quickly, that's the point of doing it in a group.

     

    How you prevent that is by having a meaningful and punishing alignment system.

    Kill someone who is blue in an npc town? Go red and take a stat/skill loss.

    Kill someone else who is red or war dec'd in a town? No impact.

     

    But that's too hard for AV apparently.

     

    On your earlier comment on not enough stuff to do, well given Ships and the like are missing at launch for the main part, I fear there is going to be even less content. Starting to worry about it all tbh.

    This just confirms that AV aren't wizards, they did put this together in a very short amount of time (in terms of MMO development) so there was likely going to be things missing (if it truly was a revamp of the game)

    Given their situation, it might be the best approach to take, deliver a smaller amount of working content and build on it from there.

    I would have preferred to see a more involved faction/flagging system but at the end of the day DF is a full on PVP game and it seems they intend to stick to that design.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    Darfall I with better graphics would accomplsh nothing.  Changes need to be made.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Galadourn


     

    This just confirms that AV aren't wizards, they did put this together in a very short amount of time (in terms of MMO development) so there was likely going to be things missing (if it truly was a revamp of the game)

    Given their situation, it might be the best approach to take, deliver a smaller amount of working content and build on it from there.

    I would have preferred to see a more involved faction/flagging system but at the end of the day DF is a full on PVP game and it seems they intend to stick to that design.

     

     

    Then they should have taken more time... When things go missing from a sandbox wih precious little sand in it in the first place you have to start to wonder.

     

    Full on pvp game with 100% safe zones, wait wut? It is simply way too two tiered. It will be 100% safety or total and utter anarchy.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Darfall I with better graphics would accomplsh nothing.  Changes need to be made.

    Hence the UI change, tutorials, grind removal, skill system changes.. Making the alignment system redundant and simply whacking in 100% safe zones might not be the best set of "changes". Time will tell.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member

    Whats the big deal?

    EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Whats the big deal?

    EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.

    EVE has an alignment system and npc protection.

     

    The concern is not that noobs get protection, it is that longer term players will exploit the safe zones.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Good! I will try this game, I quit the first one because as soon as I loaded in and stepped out to kill an orc I was brutally raped by a savage. This will no longer be the case.  The other thing I like is no stupid NPC guards, that is the lamest shit ever.  Can't wait to try this title out.

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Whats the big deal?

    EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.

    EVE has an alignment system and npc protection.

     

    The concern is not that noobs get protection, it is that longer term players will exploit the safe zones.

     A valid concern, gamers have proven one thing over the years, if its possible to exploit a system, they'll do so and with gusto.

    I hope AV has learned enough now to expect this and put in some controls.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Whats the big deal?EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.

    There are a few points you are missing.

    1) Only about 15% of EVE player base actually venture out where one can lose everything.
    2) Majority of the players do not care about greater rewards.
    3) There is tons of content in safe zones.

  • TopherpunchTopherpunch Apex, NCPosts: 86Member

    Honestly, people need to relax. The game is not even out yet. If you do not like how it sounds than don't play it. The safe zones were asked for by the community, actually everything was asked for by the community. The game is for the community of players that actually played the game.

    It is a fact that there were nosafe zones for noobs to learn the game in and learn how to survive out in the world of Darkfall. It was a gank fest for people just learning how to shoot their bow, or swing their sword. Wether you like it or not the safe zone will give you more people to PvP with. Also if you think AV is going to allow people to run and hide back into the safe zone you are mistaken, they live for carnage. Why do you think they created the game? There is going to be a grey moment for those entering the safe zone most likely. Just like the lawless to unlawless areas in the original game.

    They are redoing all of the nodes so hiding in the safe zone and farming for crafting materials probably won't get you anything good.

    We don't know how many cities each race will have because the game has not come out yet. Sure there were 15 player cities in Agon, but it didn't take up that much room. The game is huge and PKing will stil be complained about even after the game launches. There will always be complaining from both side.

    Play the game, or don't play it, than decide if you like it. Complaining about how there is a safe zone is not going to help because people asked for it alot. You should be happy if you are a PKer and there are safe zone, more people will play and that means more people will get ganked, and that means more fun for us all.

    Also about the content in safe zone. There will only be a few spawns and probably a limited number of nodes. There were no dungeons or good spawn points near the cities in Darkfall, and they wont do that. People will not be all set with staying in the safe zones, unless they are a crafter who never needs to leave, like an alt. Worrying about this is pointless because it is going to be fine, players are going to die alot and noobs will need to venture out into the world because after about halfway through their skills they will want to kill something harder that has faster skill ups. and that drops something worth their time. especially when they see characters come in with gnarly stuff.

    image


    Come check out what I have to say on my blog http://civilgamer.com

    Also check out http;//agonasylum.com for Darkfall player trading and stories forums

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Whats the big deal?

    EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.

    EVE has an alignment system and npc protection.

     

    The concern is not that noobs get protection, it is that longer term players will exploit the safe zones.

     A valid concern, gamers have proven one thing over the years, if its possible to exploit a system, they'll do so and with gusto.

    I hope AV has learned enough now to expect this and put in some controls.

     

    Well given they can't seem to work out how to even make an alignment system works, I am not betting my house on them making this system work.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    I'm a bit disappointed tbh.

    Even though DF needs more safety for new players and carebears, I'm not sure some artificial safezones with PvP turned off is the way to go.

    I had prefered a more dynamic risk vs reward system where no place is 100% safe but where you're still able to relax once in a while.

    I still can't understand why AV just don't copy EVE's design - it obviously works very well.
  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    I can't believe people complain they can't kill a completely noob person. I mean, come on, what's the fun in killing someone you know you're gonna one shot. I love pvp to death, and any mmo I've played I always play a PvP server if possible, I like the sense of danger everywhere, but one thing I never, ever got was lowbie ganking.

    I guess I prefer a real challenge, myself, someone I know that's going to put up a good fight and the fight could go either way. I find it absolutely boring and unchallenging killing lowbies that I just one shot. Yay, I just one shot that lowbie, and got their crappy gear... I just never got it. Guess you have to be a teenage little boy or a 20-30ish pathetic momma's boy living at home still getting your epeen on in a video game since you fail in real life, I dunno.

    What I've usually found when playing pvp when I go out searching for those lowbie gankers is those people are absolutely terrible pvp players and that's probably why they're out there ganking lowbies, they suck.

    image

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  • TopherpunchTopherpunch Apex, NCPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by Tayah

    I can't believe people complain they can't kill a completely noob person. I mean, come on, what's the fun in killing someone you know you're gonna one shot. I love pvp to death, and any mmo I've played I always play a PvP server if possible, I like the sense of danger everywhere, but one thing I never, ever got was lowbie ganking.

    I guess I prefer a real challenge, myself, someone I know that's going to put up a good fight and the fight could go either way. I find it absolutely boring and unchallenging killing lowbies that I just one shot. Yay, I just one shot that lowbie, and got their crappy gear... I just never got it. Guess you have to be a teenage little boy or a 20-30ish pathetic momma's boy living at home still getting your epeen on in a video game since you fail in real life, I dunno.

    What I've usually found when playing pvp when I go out searching for those lowbie gankers is those people are absolutely terrible pvp players and that's probably why they're out there ganking lowbies, they suck.

    Agreed. Also people who complain about not being able to kill noobs aswell. If you think people are going to use this noobie area as a crutch and take advantage of the Non PvP than you have no faith in the new game. Might be a good idea not to play it.  I will play it and the same thing will happen as in darkfall 1, I will find people and I will kill them. There will still be sieges. If someone runs inside of a safe zone and you cannot kill them, you are obviously not a good player. There will be a countdown until they are flagged as not killiable and if you cannot kill them than I guess you should rethink how you play the game. 

    Just give the game a chance and if you see it is being exploited by vets who want to hide in the noob cities then complain. 

    The only thing I am going to miss is unsafe trading. But I will make that sacrifice for more players to kill.

    image


    Come check out what I have to say on my blog http://civilgamer.com

    Also check out http;//agonasylum.com for Darkfall player trading and stories forums

  • FaleshFalesh BobtownPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Whats the big deal?

     

    EVE had this and is a great for the new players.  Safe zones are limitied and with limited rewards, for greater rewards one must venture out into the free-for-all space where one can lose everything.


     

    There are a few points you are missing.

    1) Only about 15% of EVE player base actually venture out where one can lose everything.
    2) Majority of the players do not care about greater rewards.
    3) There is tons of content in safe zones.

    I'm not sure which way you are meaning this so please excuse me if I am mistaken but I hope you are not implying that lot of players in DF:UW will actually stay in the starter cities and farm goblins because they are safe from attack? If so do you know how utterly pitiful the goblin loot is? No player will stay unless they have absolutely nowhere else to go.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Falesh

    I'm not sure which way you are meaning this so please excuse me if I am mistaken but I hope you are not implying that lot of players in DF:UW will actually stay in the starter cities and farm goblins because they are safe from attack? If so do you know how utterly pitiful the goblin loot is? No player will stay unless they have absolutely nowhere else to go.

    I would say you got it right. Some don't get it even after 3 years of launching their own product...

  • Adam1902Adam1902 Posts: 522Member Uncommon

    I've updated my original post in my thread on the official DF forums, mainly responding to points other people have bought up and providing solutions to them.

    I can't read through every response here, and on the official forums... I do have a life too, surprisingly.

    But basically, if these safe zones aren't done right, the whole game will revolve around safe zones. People won't "live" in their clan holdings. If you didn't play DF 1.0 you probably won't understand what the hell I'm babbling on about.

    But the point of me doing this, is to provide AV with a solution instead of simply adding "100% safe for everyone zones". My solution provides 100% safe zones to EVERY newbie, and 99% safe cities (think EVE Jita) for everyone else.

    I think it's a good solution, and I really hope Aventurine do read it.

    _________
    Currently in casual mode!
    Playing: Few FPS games.

    Watching: Albion Online: Summer alpha was great, but the game seems to be progressing towards heavy instancing.

    Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.

  • FaleshFalesh BobtownPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Falesh

    I'm not sure which way you are meaning this so please excuse me if I am mistaken but I hope you are not implying that lot of players in DF:UW will actually stay in the starter cities and farm goblins because they are safe from attack? If so do you know how utterly pitiful the goblin loot is? No player will stay unless they have absolutely nowhere else to go.

     

    I would say you got it right. Some don't get it even after 3 years of launching their own product...

     

    Then you know nothing about the game if you think people would kill goblins forever.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Adam1902

    But basically, if these safe zones aren't done right, the whole game will revolve around safe zones. People won't "live" in their clan holdings.

    And that is fine.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Falesh

    Then you know nothing about the game if you think people would kill goblins forever.

    Tell Aventurine, not me :)

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I'm not concerned about safe areas being exploited. Perpetuums alpha isles are even safer than eve high sec, having flag only pvp, but themes no vets exploiting them.

    One thing with rvr though, is the security isn't binary its not just null sec and high sec, there is also low sec. Low sec makes for interesting mechanics imo. If darkfall went the eve route, they would have to keep high sec smaller than eve itself, but have more low sec imo, as darkfall would loose its brutal nature with too much high sec. The transition from high to low to null helps keep newer players in eve, but unfortunately many people stay in high in eve as they can, if such a system was in darkfall with its pvp nature the system should be tweaked so 99% of vets are in "null sec" the vast majority of leveling players are in "low sec", and "high sec" is reserved for newbies and certain city areas where players bank etc..
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Tayah

    I can't believe people complain they can't kill a completely noob person. I mean, come on, what's the fun in killing someone you know you're gonna one shot. I love pvp to death, and any mmo I've played I always play a PvP server if possible, I like the sense of danger everywhere, but one thing I never, ever got was lowbie ganking.

    I guess I prefer a real challenge, myself, someone I know that's going to put up a good fight and the fight could go either way. I find it absolutely boring and unchallenging killing lowbies that I just one shot. Yay, I just one shot that lowbie, and got their crappy gear... I just never got it. Guess you have to be a teenage little boy or a 20-30ish pathetic momma's boy living at home still getting your epeen on in a video game since you fail in real life, I dunno.

    What I've usually found when playing pvp when I go out searching for those lowbie gankers is those people are absolutely terrible pvp players and that's probably why they're out there ganking lowbies, they suck.

    People are worried the safe zones will be exploited by non noobs.

     

    People are concerned that it is too much of a two tier system. Switching from 100% safe to utter anarchy (zero alignment systems) seems at face value a ridiculous system.

     

    People are concerned that it looks like a total cop out from a team that can't manage to work an alignment system so have just decided to "turn off pvp" in a pvp centric game.

     

    People are concerned that with the limited amount of content Darkfall has in comparision to say an EVE or a UO, that these safe zones are not the answer if they are trying to appeal to pve players. CONTENT is the answer, this appears to be a lame quick fix.

     

    People wanted safer zones for noobs via npcs, via an alignment system actually worth something. Not artificial, "oh turn it off here" switches.

     

    But yeah you are totally right, we are just unsure about it because we can't all group up naked and gank the shit out of noobs in noob town because we are scared of "real pvp" because we all suck.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Adam1902

    But basically, if these safe zones aren't done right, the whole game will revolve around safe zones. People won't "live" in their clan holdings.

     

    And that is fine.

    Debatable.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    I had planned to troll this post, but op is right:

     

    All the racial capitals and satellite faction cities as well as surrounding areas where players will make their initial steps have all PvP actions disabled. Even players belonging to enemy clans will be unable to damage each other in those areas. The vast majority of the world of course remains as it was. As a side note, while NPC guard towers are now completely off as they serve no purpose, Player holding towers will continue to faction as before.

     

    The identity of darkfall just left...sad

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  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Galadourn

    although I would have preferred an EVE approach to security for starting areas, I guess that this change will only be good for the general population of Darkfall.

    However, the trully ideal approach would be to allow pvp but also allow players to call guards. But apparently that's too hard to implement for AV.

    This is my stance on it really.

    Allow killing anywhere but in main hubs have guards roaming and towers watching.  You hit someone you get ganked. 

    EvE is the best model. You can do what you want but in hubs its hard to get away with it.  Not being able to hurt someone in a zone is just as unrealistic as killing anyone, anywhere without consequence.

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