this issue is present in all themeparks.. whats the point of getting all that raid gear what do you do with it in raid based games? do more raids? whats the point in grinding out PVP gear in themeparks? stomp on lowbies? again it's really an issue with all themeparks in general.. it's basically themepark burnout..
meant ot quote part of the OP oops
it feels like there is no definite goal to work towards. The result is a feeling of pointlessness.
Agree.
This is also a case (because i never see posts like this in any other forums) of people using any excuse other then self reflection to blame everything else but their burnout as the problem.
I've never seen so much delusional thoughts until I came here. It's amazing what people will tell themselves to make their ego feel okay.
If the game didn't already have easy porting to other players, linking to the other players shard, grouping not being necessary but grouping is STILL in there, and the ability to have chat bubbles in group, the ability to be in not one but multiple guilds, if this game didn't have those things then maybe then I would agree that there isn't a social aspect of this game, but it DOES in fact have ALL these things to be a social game. Be honest people it's not the game.
I know it's burn out, but truth be told I had the advantage of playing in a virtual world sandbox and loving every second of it. People can say what they will about SWG, and I know it was broken and buggy in a lot of ways, but we had so much fun in it that few people even really cared. I logged in for so much more than you will ever be able to do in a pure themepark.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
And of course there are people who act like I'm a blind fanboy that has "seen the light, and that they are right about the game being shit" and conveniently ignore the fact that I NEVER EXPECTED IT TO BE A REVOLUTION, THAT I SO EXPLICITLY PUT INTO MY OPENING POST.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 GW2 is basically a social experiment. The idea was that players would have fun just by completing dynamic events and fighting in WvW without receiving any sort of real reward in return. This is why so many people find the game pointless. There's no goal to work towards.
So what could Anet add to give a better sense of progression without stats? Thats the problem because at its core, GW2 is a combat game and is thus based on character power. If they went with no stats and no levels, then they would be free to explore alternative ways to advance much like a sandbox. I think WvW levels is a good idea. I also think some sort of non pvp ranking systems implemented into crafting or mini games. They really need to crank out those city mini games imo and add some rankings or levels to that as well.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 GW2 is basically a social experiment. The idea was that players would have fun just by completing dynamic events and fighting in WvW without receiving any sort of real reward in return. This is why so many people find the game pointless. There's no goal to work towards.
So what could Anet add to give a better sense of progression without stats? Thats the problem because at its core, GW2 is a combat game and is thus based on character power. If they went with no stats and no levels, then they would be free to explore alternative ways to advance much like a sandbox. I think WvW levels is a good idea. I also think some sort of non pvp ranking systems implemented into crafting or mini games. They really need to crank out those city mini games imo and add some rankings or levels to that as well.
for me I'd say they need more options on weapon skills or some other type of progression based on the current skill system
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by SuperXero89GW2 is basically a social experiment. The idea was that players would have fun just by completing dynamic events and fighting in WvW without receiving any sort of real reward in return. This is why so many people find the game pointless. There's no goal to work towards.
So what could Anet add to give a better sense of progression without stats? Thats the problem because at its core, GW2 is a combat game and is thus based on character power. If they went with no stats and no levels, then they would be free to explore alternative ways to advance much like a sandbox. I think WvW levels is a good idea. I also think some sort of non pvp ranking systems implemented into crafting or mini games. They really need to crank out those city mini games imo and add some rankings or levels to that as well.for me I'd say they need more options on weapon skills or some other type of progression based on the current skill system more weapons and weapon skills would be a great addition. would you give them straight up front in a content patch or would you put it into a quest chain or DE or dungeon?
Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
Originally posted by drakaena Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by drakaena Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
Have you? Because I share a vent with guilds that coordinate point swapping. Doh. Who said anything about purpose, THEY ARENT AS GOOD. It's an inferrior design. Are you going to sit here and tell me with a straight face you think GW2 instance PvE is done as well as the other two Themepark games I mentioned? No.
Originally posted by drakaena Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
Have you? Because I share a vent with guilds that coordinate point swapping. Doh. Who said anything about purpose, THEY ARENT AS GOOD. It's an inferrior design. Are you going to sit here and tell me with a straight face you think GW2 instance PvE is done as well as the other two Themepark games I mentioned? No.
i hate trinity dungeons so i can say yes.. also again why are those carrots so much better? what do you get to do with all that best gear you spent all that time raiding for or PVPing for in those other games.. its inferior to you maybe but not an inferior design overall imho bot at all... maybe people actually like it a lot better.. i know it's impossible to think others differ in opinions but it's true
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I never thought GW2 would be some kind of MMO revolution. I didn't think it was innovative or anything like that. I knew dynamic events weren't really dynamic.
I knew what I was getting, and I feel I did get my money's worth.
Now that that's out of the way...
I'm not 100% sure WHY I've gotten bored of it. It's become like WoW for me; I sorta wanna log in, but I'm not able to bring myself to do so.
It definitely wasn't community, since I generally almost NEVER talk to anyone unless I was really bored. I doubt it was SPvP or WvWvW, because I had never bothered to go in there in the first place.
I eventually came up with only one major reason I could think of that could have contributed to my feeling of ennui towards GW2.
Everything has a feeling of telling you what to do, but at the same time, it feels like there is no definite goal to work towards. The result is a feeling of pointlessness.
Unfortunately, I cannot figure out how to really explain this, and I really need to log off right now, so I'll add more stuff later.
The only cumminty I saw was on the forums, which was lame for an MMO.
Arena Net needs to work on the social aspect of this game, because it is lacking. This is a key component because it prevents people like you (and me) from logging on.
Essentially there is no interaction with other players. No interaction? No care. No hate. No love. No emotion
No emotion means every other player might as well be a NPC, for the good they do. No emotion also means there is no need to log on.
GW2 is a good solo player game though. The graphics engine is better than SWTOR, which is also a single player game. (both under the guise of an MMO :P )
This is exactly what I mean when I say 'people come for the games, but they stay for the people'.
As much as I enjoyed GW2 as a solo RPG, and I did, ANet are just the latest in a long line of Devs that don't get this.
Originally posted by drakaena Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
Have you? Because I share a vent with guilds that coordinate point swapping. Doh. Who said anything about purpose, THEY ARENT AS GOOD. It's an inferrior design. Are you going to sit here and tell me with a straight face you think GW2 instance PvE is done as well as the other two Themepark games I mentioned? No.
i hate trinity dungeons so i can say yes.. also again why are those carrots so much better? what do you get to do with all that best gear you spent all that time raiding for or PVPing for in those other games.. its inferior to you maybe but not an inferior design overall imho bot at all... maybe people actually like it a lot better.. i know it's impossible to think others differ in opinions but it's true
You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with what a player will do with his or her gear. It's about in the moment. The actual act of raiding and or PvPing in other themeparks is much more enjoyable. Not that I'm a big advocate of either, but if I had to choose one, I'm not picking GW2. It's too casual for its own good. There has to be a level of challenge and skill when obtaining a carrot, otherwise you don't appreciate it. GW2 is just grind without skill. Sure, there is some skill required, but it is marginal. Everyone can do it. There's nothing that separates players. Even GW1 got this right. GW2 is gold star stickers for everyone. That's dumb. Where's the competition, the rivalries, the respect. Everyone is just blah. Who's the best PvE and PvP guilds? Does anyone even know? Is there anyway to tell? Who wants a game where everyone is the same... that's so mind numbingly bland. IMHO (;
I'm stil ltrying to understand though in any other themepark how are you rewarded for your time played? you get better stat gear to make your character stronger right? now what do you do with this better gear? do more of the same dungeons? you get top raid gear then what do you do? help others get their top raid gear?
I used to find this somewhat fun but after doing the PVP gear treadmill in Rift and getting top tiered gear It just lost all it's appeal to me and I never can see myself doing this sort of gear treadmill again in a themepark type game. It again comes down to what's the purpose of that carrot and to me themeparks don't offer me that purpose anymore.. so again for me it's not a GW2 specific issue as any of these games have the same issue in the end..
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of how the human mind operates. In games where we play through dungeons and quests in hopes of getting items that will make our characters more powerful, the stimulus is the idea of getting better itself. We are constantly comparing ourselves to everything, and games use that to lure us into playing more and more by offering the idea that doing a certain quest or running a certain dungeon will make us stronger. The point is to get better and that is an extremely powerful force that leads us to actually care about logging in every day. No one wants to fall behind, everyone wants to be the best, be at the top, and that is why making rewards purely cosmetical presents a very shallow "carrot" for players.
Getting better gear also presents a VERY tangible effect on gameplay. When you acquire better gear, you can kill monsters faster, you can kill other players faster, you can cast more spells before having to rest, and most importantly, you can tackle more powerful and more epic challenges. Getting gear presents itself as a gateway to experiencing new content, and that drives players to constantly strive for better stats. Who wants to miss out on an epic fight against the new raid boss that just came out? That is why the gear treadmill is so effective at maintaining players hooked, it directly influences gameplay.
Still playing but am a bit less enthralled with it. The whole zerg aspect of DEs, the "invulnerability" glitched mods, ridiculous money sinks with repairs (why this is done in a PvP enviroment is beyond me), the ridiculous farming requirment for legendary items then the whole DR slap in the face, and amoung others is irking me a little.
Still think it is one of the better combat systems minus the whole part of mobs 1-3 shoting you which I think is a bit overboard. Doing a DE and then next thing i know I'm dead is a bit screwed up mechanic, even when I have plenty of toughness and a decent amount of Vit. Especiall since one cannot tell what the hell the mob is doing when in a zerg DE.
Thought I would never say this but ESO seems to be the one game I would retire to that I though GW2 would have been.
Lore seems a bit inconsistent. By that the Charr... they role your character does and how they act is very inconsistent with what the race is projected as. I expected something.... more, everyone's a goody lil two shoe which is a bit annoying. The world is rich with lore but very little delving into it from what I can tell. Waiting to see how ESO's each faction has it's own objjective and each faction is a different experiance will pan out.
Originally posted by drakaena Fans of this game keep pointing out that there are carrots to chase for those that want them. True, enough. I don't disagree. Problem is, those carrots are inferrior to other themepark games. GW2 dungeons don't even come close to comparing to raids in WoW or Rift. GW2 sPvP is an esport without any incentive whatsoever. WTF? WvW is a giant circle jerk of castle swapping for fast rep. So PvP is lacking incentive and easily exploited and instance PvE is underwhelming at best. What am I missing here? It's not that there isn't carrots to gnaw, it's that they taste rotten.
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
Have you? Because I share a vent with guilds that coordinate point swapping. Doh. Who said anything about purpose, THEY ARENT AS GOOD. It's an inferrior design. Are you going to sit here and tell me with a straight face you think GW2 instance PvE is done as well as the other two Themepark games I mentioned? No.
i hate trinity dungeons so i can say yes.. also again why are those carrots so much better? what do you get to do with all that best gear you spent all that time raiding for or PVPing for in those other games.. its inferior to you maybe but not an inferior design overall imho bot at all... maybe people actually like it a lot better.. i know it's impossible to think others differ in opinions but it's true
You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with what a player will do with his or her gear. It's about in the moment. The actual act of raiding and or PvPing in other themeparks is much more enjoyable. Not that I'm a big advocate of either, but if I had to choose one, I'm not picking GW2. It's too casual for its own good. There has to be a level of challenge and skill when obtaining a carrot, otherwise you don't appreciate it. GW2 is just grind without skill. Sure, there is some skill required, but it is marginal. Everyone can do it. There's nothing that separates players. Even GW1 got this right. GW2 is gold star stickers for everyone. That's dumb. Where's the competition, the rivalries, the respect. Everyone is just blah. Who's the best PvE and PvP guilds? Does anyone even know? Is there anyway to tell? Who wants a game where everyone is the same... that's so mind numbingly bland. IMHO (;
have seen way more complaints about people having trouble in GW2 dungeons than dungeons in other recent themeparks.. also you have tons of ways to make your character unique through traits/sigils/runes and utilities.. just watch the hundreds of youtube videos of sPVP tournys to see all the differn't ways you could build a character.. as far as top guilds and such all these features were not available at launch of most other games either and has been something they said they are working on putting in.. but again it's all about what you enjoy
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I never thought GW2 would be some kind of MMO revolution. I didn't think it was innovative or anything like that. I knew dynamic events weren't really dynamic.
I knew what I was getting, and I feel I did get my money's worth.
Now that that's out of the way...
I'm not 100% sure WHY I've gotten bored of it. It's become like WoW for me; I sorta wanna log in, but I'm not able to bring myself to do so.
It definitely wasn't community, since I generally almost NEVER talk to anyone unless I was really bored. I doubt it was SPvP or WvWvW, because I had never bothered to go in there in the first place.
I eventually came up with only one major reason I could think of that could have contributed to my feeling of ennui towards GW2.
Everything has a feeling of telling you what to do, but at the same time, it feels like there is no definite goal to work towards. The result is a feeling of pointlessness.
Unfortunately, I cannot figure out how to really explain this, and I really need to log off right now, so I'll add more stuff later.
So you decided to jump on the bandwagon just like everyone else? Wow, what a sheep. In all honesty, do you really think anyone gives a crap? It seems that so many of you have the absurdness that just because you do not like a game, others will care. Do what others have said over and over again; stop playing! How more simple can it be?
I'm stil ltrying to understand though in any other themepark how are you rewarded for your time played? you get better stat gear to make your character stronger right? now what do you do with this better gear? do more of the same dungeons? you get top raid gear then what do you do? help others get their top raid gear?
I used to find this somewhat fun but after doing the PVP gear treadmill in Rift and getting top tiered gear It just lost all it's appeal to me and I never can see myself doing this sort of gear treadmill again in a themepark type game. It again comes down to what's the purpose of that carrot and to me themeparks don't offer me that purpose anymore.. so again for me it's not a GW2 specific issue as any of these games have the same issue in the end..
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of how the human mind operates. In games where we play through dungeons and quests in hopes of getting items that will make our characters more powerful, the stimulus is the idea of getting better itself. We are constantly comparing ourselves to everything, and games use that to lure us into playing more and more by offering the idea that doing a certain quest or running a certain dungeon will make us stronger. The point is to get better and that is an extremely powerful force that leads us to actually care about logging in every day. No one wants to fall behind, everyone wants to be the best, be at the top, and that is why making rewards purely cosmetical presents a very shallow "carrot" for players.
Getting better gear also presents a VERY tangible effect on gameplay. When you acquire better gear, you can kill monsters faster, you can kill other players faster, you can cast more spells before having to rest, and most importantly, you can tackle more powerful and more epic challenges. Getting gear presents itself as a gateway to experiencing new content, and that drives players to constantly strive for better stats. Who wants to miss out on an epic fight against the new raid boss that just came out? That is why the gear treadmill is so effective at maintaining players hooked, it directly influences gameplay.
there's only so many games I can do this in till you make the realization it's just tedious and pointless.. true you could say this about playing any game. Point is all themeparks since wow have been more or less fundamentally the same the structure of the game is pretty much the same and honestly to me has gotten stale over the years.. GW2 at least is trying to mix things up and obviously not everyone will appreciate it.. i played 100s of warfronts in Rift to get tier 8 gear which at the time was the best.. but then what was there to do? run around ganking people in owpvp for what purpose? complete PVP rifts for what purpose?..
you just come to a point when you need more world structures like full exploration or political systems or ways to shape the world to want to play a game for very long periods of time.. GW2 doesn't solve this as it's been an issue in pretty much all themeparks.. for me I play them for fun and get the most out of the content and when I get bored I move on..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I think perhaps a potential problem with the game design is Anet built a themepark and expected people to play it like a sandbox. They want you to play it like a virtual world but it seems like people are frustrated that around every discovery or dynamic event, the wizard behind the curtain is not only exposed, he's on display with bright lights flashing. From what people are saying, it sounds a little like that could be part of the problem. People saying they cant explore or wander around without messages constantly popping up saying "an event is nearby" or "congrats! you found a secret cave!"
I also think that when your rewards for time spent and difficult content beaten is cosmetic, it deflates the experience. Especially since most other themeparks have costumes and dyes and wardrobes as a side feature that is easily accessible. Its like all that time spent for a new look? I create new wardrobes in my downtime in other mmos.
I see it like this. For years Theme Parks have been called "Games on rails" GW2 attempted to remove the rails. But unforutunately, the best they could do was a bumpercar system. Wander around your little controlled environment bumping off one thing to the next with little actual freedom to go anywhere you wanted.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by FoomerangI think perhaps a potential problem with the game design is Anet built a themepark and expected people to play it like a sandbox. They want you to play it like a virtual world but it seems like people are frustrated that around every discovery or dynamic event, the wizard behind the curtain is not only exposed, he's on display with bright lights flashing. From what people are saying, it sounds a little like that could be part of the problem. People saying they cant explore or wander around without messages constantly popping up saying "an event is nearby" or "congrats! you found a secret cave!"I also think that when your rewards for time spent and difficult content beaten is cosmetic, it deflates the experience. Especially since most other themeparks have costumes and dyes and wardrobes as a side feature that is easily accessible. Its like all that time spent for a new look? I create new wardrobes in my downtime in other mmos.
I see it like this. For years Theme Parks have been called "Games on rails" GW2 attempted to remove the rails. But unforutunately, the best they could do was a bumpercar system. Wander around your little controlled environment bumping off one thing to the next with little actual freedom to go anywhere you wanted.
The crux of the problem is that we talk about freedom but within the confines of a combat centric system. So many themeparks suffer from this, saying "Look at all the different ways you can...kill stuff!" Ok so what if I don't want to kill stuff? You can do these mini games, or puzzles, or craft something that aids in combat. And these systems are much needed but at the same time so rudimentary compared to the thousands of hours pored into the combat system. And we all say, "well thats the main point of these games and what everyone wants to do". I think if a dev put in as much time into their combat system as say their crafting or housing systems, people would not get as bored so quickly. Nobody wants to play an afterthought. Thats what non combat systems are in mmos, an afterthought at best. Most of the time the point is to make combat more effective anyway so it all comes back to this combat centric theme.
So we convince ourselves that combat is paramount then wonder why it all feels so pointless or too gamey after the new car smell wears off. Notice how so many people only last a couple months with these new mmos? Is it a coincidence its about the same amount of time people spend playing action/adventure games on their consoles?
I hate the fact that we say this is such a great mmorpg for a themepark. The phrase 'for a themepark' is nothing more than an excuse these days. Why dont these games have robust crafting systems and deep player driven economies? Wheres the permanent player made structures? Oh, its because its a themepark? Is that even a compliment anymore? It sounds more like an apology.
One thing i noticed thats missing from these games are places to hang out. In games that i really liked they had this "feature"
Camp checks and random boss spawns.
In RO there was this place called the devi room. Higher lvls would just sit all around the room and wait for devis to spawn in hopes to get the evil wings to drop. was, at the time, the only place devis spawned i believe. But they changed it and poof goes the devi room.
There was also a cave that had mushrooms in it that alot of people would just hang out in.
The crux of the problem is that we talk about freedom but within the confines of a combat centric system. So many themeparks suffer from this, saying "Look at all the different ways you can...kill stuff!" Ok so what if I don't want to kill stuff? You can do these mini games, or puzzles, or craft something that aids in combat. And these systems are much needed but at the same time so rudimentary compared to the thousands of hours pored into the combat system. And we all say, "well thats the main point of these games and what everyone wants to do". I think if a dev put in as much time into their combat system as say their crafting or housing systems, people would not get as bored so quickly. Nobody wants to play an afterthought. Thats what non combat systems are in mmos, an afterthought at best. Most of the time the point is to make combat more effective anyway so it all comes back to this combat centric theme.
So we convince ourselves that combat is paramount then wonder why it all feels so pointless or too gamey after the new car smell wears off. Notice how so many people only last a couple months with these new mmos? Is it a coincidence its about the same amount of time people spend playing action/adventure games on their consoles?
I hate the fact that we say this is such a great mmorpg for a themepark. The phrase 'for a themepark' is nothing more than an excuse these days. Why dont these games have robust crafting systems and deep player driven economies? Wheres the permanent player made structures? Oh, its because its a themepark? Is that even a compliment anymore? It sounds more like an apology.
Everyone's got their own personal definition of themepark and sandbox, but you just described mine. What you're talking about is what I'd consider a sandbox - that is, gamplay that goes in all sorts of directions, other than combat. The limitations you're talking about, such combat-centric development and gameplay - that is the primary limitation inherent to MMO themepark design, IMHO. It creates such a railed-in limited and implausible 2d facade gameworld.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Originally posted by FoomerangI think perhaps a potential problem with the game design is Anet built a themepark and expected people to play it like a sandbox. They want you to play it like a virtual world but it seems like people are frustrated that around every discovery or dynamic event, the wizard behind the curtain is not only exposed, he's on display with bright lights flashing. From what people are saying, it sounds a little like that could be part of the problem. People saying they cant explore or wander around without messages constantly popping up saying "an event is nearby" or "congrats! you found a secret cave!"I also think that when your rewards for time spent and difficult content beaten is cosmetic, it deflates the experience. Especially since most other themeparks have costumes and dyes and wardrobes as a side feature that is easily accessible. Its like all that time spent for a new look? I create new wardrobes in my downtime in other mmos.
I see it like this. For years Theme Parks have been called "Games on rails" GW2 attempted to remove the rails. But unforutunately, the best they could do was a bumpercar system. Wander around your little controlled environment bumping off one thing to the next with little actual freedom to go anywhere you wanted.
The crux of the problem is that we talk about freedom but within the confines of a combat centric system. So many themeparks suffer from this, saying "Look at all the different ways you can...kill stuff!" Ok so what if I don't want to kill stuff? You can do these mini games, or puzzles, or craft something that aids in combat. And these systems are much needed but at the same time so rudimentary compared to the thousands of hours pored into the combat system. And we all say, "well thats the main point of these games and what everyone wants to do". I think if a dev put in as much time into their combat system as say their crafting or housing systems, people would not get as bored so quickly. Nobody wants to play an afterthought. Thats what non combat systems are in mmos, an afterthought at best. Most of the time the point is to make combat more effective anyway so it all comes back to this combat centric theme.
So we convince ourselves that combat is paramount then wonder why it all feels so pointless or too gamey after the new car smell wears off. Notice how so many people only last a couple months with these new mmos? Is it a coincidence its about the same amount of time people spend playing action/adventure games on their consoles?
I hate the fact that we say this is such a great mmorpg for a themepark. The phrase 'for a themepark' is nothing more than an excuse these days. Why dont these games have robust crafting systems and deep player driven economies? Wheres the permanent player made structures? Oh, its because its a themepark? Is that even a compliment anymore? It sounds more like an apology.
For a themepark or for an MMO or for an MMORPG, I really don't care. I don't think GW2 is great. I think it's decent. For most, I think you can say you got your money's worth. But even that's subjective. But it's not a great game. A great game keeps me comming back month after month. And even then that's not all there is to it. I sub and play Rift. I think it's the best of what's available. It's a good game. But is it great? I'm not sure I would say it is.
I think perhaps a potential problem with the game design is Anet built a themepark and expected people to play it like a sandbox. They want you to play it like a virtual world but it seems like people are frustrated that around every discovery or dynamic event, the wizard behind the curtain is not only exposed, he's on display with bright lights flashing. From what people are saying, it sounds a little like that could be part of the problem. People saying they cant explore or wander around without messages constantly popping up saying "an event is nearby" or "congrats! you found a secret cave!"
I also think that when your rewards for time spent and difficult content beaten is cosmetic, it deflates the experience. Especially since most other themeparks have costumes and dyes and wardrobes as a side feature that is easily accessible. Its like all that time spent for a new look? I create new wardrobes in my downtime in other mmos.
Agreed. It is not only that those messages and markers pop up. Even simply turning them off would not change that much, because GW2 is designed to be played with this hand-holding present. Besides it is same dilemma like with cross-server LFG systems or quest gps - there are constant arguments that you don't have to use them. True. They still affect game enviroment you play within. It does not really matter that if single person turn it on or off, unless said person is playing this game as purely single player experience, which does not happen often since even most those who play alone say "I like playing when game world is populated with other people even if I don't talk to them".
There is also rewards thing, when you get generic rewards (karma, xp, some tokens) for most things you do in a game. When you get off beaten path and help someone or find some place you don't expect to get some generic points and 'congratulations you're great' message.
Ok some people like it and it is nothing wrong, but for some other people it devaluate experience and is definition of themepark where you get an candy at the end of the ride because you was so brave.
Of course it is NOT possible to please both of those groups and whatever choices will be made there will be always complaints about that.
I think perhaps a potential problem with the game design is Anet built a themepark and expected people to play it like a sandbox. They want you to play it like a virtual world but it seems like people are frustrated that around every discovery or dynamic event, the wizard behind the curtain is not only exposed, he's on display with bright lights flashing. From what people are saying, it sounds a little like that could be part of the problem. People saying they cant explore or wander around without messages constantly popping up saying "an event is nearby" or "congrats! you found a secret cave!"
I also think that when your rewards for time spent and difficult content beaten is cosmetic, it deflates the experience. Especially since most other themeparks have costumes and dyes and wardrobes as a side feature that is easily accessible. Its like all that time spent for a new look? I create new wardrobes in my downtime in other mmos.
Agreed. It is not only that those messages and markers pop up. Even simply turning them off would not change that much, because GW2 is designed to be played with this hand-holding present. Besides it is same dilemma like with cross-server LFG systems or quest gps - there are constant arguments that you don't have to use them. True. They still affect game enviroment you play within. It does not really matter that if single person turn it on or off, unless said person is playing this game as purely single player experience, which does not happen often since even most those who play alone say "I like playing when game world is populated with other people even if I don't talk to them".
There is also rewards thing, when you get generic rewards (karma, xp, some tokens) for most things you do in a game. When you get off beaten path and help someone or find some place you don't expect to get some generic points and 'congratulations you're great' message.
Ok some people like it and it is nothing wrong, but for some other people it devaluate experience and is definition of themepark where you get an candy at the end of the ride because you was so brave.
Of course it is NOT possible to please both of those groups and whatever choices will be made there will be always complaints about that.
this is the issue when you are catering to a mass audience.. as many know hearts were added because beta testers needed direction and were lost on how to play the game.. if there was no markers or anything people would be bitching left and right.. it's a much smaller group(me included) that wants completely open ended world with no markers or anything leading you by the hand.. it's just the drawback of making a game that caters to the majority... same reasons they don't make events with permanent effects as people would be bitching left and right they missed so and so event
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
For a themepark or for an MMO or for an MMORPG, I really don't care. I don't think GW2 is great. I think it's decent. For most, I think you can say you got your money's worth. But even that's subjective. But it's not a great game. A great game keeps me comming back month after month. And even then that's not all there is to it. I sub and play Rift. I think it's the best of what's available. It's a good game. But is it great? I'm not sure I would say it is.
Wow... I must say I have exactly the same feeling. I didn't feel like I got my money's worth out of GW2 at all (thus why I refund, which btw, I NEVER do for a game). I just wasn't impressed at all by it. Any fun I had out of it quickly became drowned out with boredom after a few hours. Now now, don't give me that BS. "Its not ment to be played hardcore" BS excuse because the fact I can play games like Torchlight 2 for several hours straight without feeling burnt out on it already even long AFTER release only shows it isn't that apealing to me. Take away the flashy new things it has and its really got nothing behind it that really felt entertaining to play. Hearts actually made me miss traditional quests (far more boring) and I was deseperate to find events to hopefully have a decent time, and even half those events became boring.
Trust me, I don't want to hate it, but the game itself just feels like it doesn't want me to play it. I feel like a zombie and any sense of fun I had when I ultimately decided to quit for good was sapped within seconds of logging on and finding it a chore. It bothers me too cause it tried to change up how things were done at least a little (even if basically its the same old same old for quests and the likes) and I found it to be a worst experience I had in a big budget MMO, literally. I feel so bad for saying it but... I had more fun with SWTOR then I did GW2...
You don't know how much that made me cringe admitting that.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer For a themepark or for an MMO or for an MMORPG, I really don't care. I don't think GW2 is great. I think it's decent. For most, I think you can say you got your money's worth. But even that's subjective. But it's not a great game. A great game keeps me comming back month after month. And even then that's not all there is to it. I sub and play Rift. I think it's the best of what's available. It's a good game. But is it great? I'm not sure I would say it is.
I sub to Rift as well and I think its a decent mmo. I also think its too combat centric although dimensions are a huge step in the right direction. When I played SWG for 8 years, i never felt this need to make sure I was getting my money's worth. It was just satisfying enough knowing on some server was my city, my home, my stuff and so was everyone else's. Now I gotta make sure I feel like im getting the best bang for my buck. Entertain me. All I really need are the tools and systems to entertain myself. Thats a huge problem with todays mmos and why so many people talk about burnout or hitting that wall.
The content needs be given back to the players. I want to be able to log on and be allowed to create. I want to log on and find out my friend's city is under attack. I want to log on and sit in a chair I made.
Comments
I know it's burn out, but truth be told I had the advantage of playing in a virtual world sandbox and loving every second of it. People can say what they will about SWG, and I know it was broken and buggy in a lot of ways, but we had so much fun in it that few people even really cared. I logged in for so much more than you will ever be able to do in a pure themepark.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
So what could Anet add to give a better sense of progression without stats? Thats the problem because at its core, GW2 is a combat game and is thus based on character power. If they went with no stats and no levels, then they would be free to explore alternative ways to advance much like a sandbox. I think WvW levels is a good idea. I also think some sort of non pvp ranking systems implemented into crafting or mini games. They really need to crank out those city mini games imo and add some rankings or levels to that as well.
for me I'd say they need more options on weapon skills or some other type of progression based on the current skill system
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
for me I'd say they need more options on weapon skills or some other type of progression based on the current skill system
more weapons and weapon skills would be a great addition. would you give them straight up front in a content patch or would you put it into a quest chain or DE or dungeon?
lol umm have you even been playing WvW ? this isn't fusang.. also what is the purpose of you getting that top raid gear in wow or Rift or that top PVP gear?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Have you? Because I share a vent with guilds that coordinate point swapping. Doh. Who said anything about purpose, THEY ARENT AS GOOD. It's an inferrior design. Are you going to sit here and tell me with a straight face you think GW2 instance PvE is done as well as the other two Themepark games I mentioned? No.
i hate trinity dungeons so i can say yes.. also again why are those carrots so much better? what do you get to do with all that best gear you spent all that time raiding for or PVPing for in those other games.. its inferior to you maybe but not an inferior design overall imho bot at all... maybe people actually like it a lot better.. i know it's impossible to think others differ in opinions but it's true
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This is exactly what I mean when I say 'people come for the games, but they stay for the people'.
As much as I enjoyed GW2 as a solo RPG, and I did, ANet are just the latest in a long line of Devs that don't get this.
You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with what a player will do with his or her gear. It's about in the moment. The actual act of raiding and or PvPing in other themeparks is much more enjoyable. Not that I'm a big advocate of either, but if I had to choose one, I'm not picking GW2. It's too casual for its own good. There has to be a level of challenge and skill when obtaining a carrot, otherwise you don't appreciate it. GW2 is just grind without skill. Sure, there is some skill required, but it is marginal. Everyone can do it. There's nothing that separates players. Even GW1 got this right. GW2 is gold star stickers for everyone. That's dumb. Where's the competition, the rivalries, the respect. Everyone is just blah. Who's the best PvE and PvP guilds? Does anyone even know? Is there anyway to tell? Who wants a game where everyone is the same... that's so mind numbingly bland. IMHO (;
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of how the human mind operates. In games where we play through dungeons and quests in hopes of getting items that will make our characters more powerful, the stimulus is the idea of getting better itself. We are constantly comparing ourselves to everything, and games use that to lure us into playing more and more by offering the idea that doing a certain quest or running a certain dungeon will make us stronger. The point is to get better and that is an extremely powerful force that leads us to actually care about logging in every day. No one wants to fall behind, everyone wants to be the best, be at the top, and that is why making rewards purely cosmetical presents a very shallow "carrot" for players.
Getting better gear also presents a VERY tangible effect on gameplay. When you acquire better gear, you can kill monsters faster, you can kill other players faster, you can cast more spells before having to rest, and most importantly, you can tackle more powerful and more epic challenges. Getting gear presents itself as a gateway to experiencing new content, and that drives players to constantly strive for better stats. Who wants to miss out on an epic fight against the new raid boss that just came out? That is why the gear treadmill is so effective at maintaining players hooked, it directly influences gameplay.
Still playing but am a bit less enthralled with it. The whole zerg aspect of DEs, the "invulnerability" glitched mods, ridiculous money sinks with repairs (why this is done in a PvP enviroment is beyond me), the ridiculous farming requirment for legendary items then the whole DR slap in the face, and amoung others is irking me a little.
Still think it is one of the better combat systems minus the whole part of mobs 1-3 shoting you which I think is a bit overboard. Doing a DE and then next thing i know I'm dead is a bit screwed up mechanic, even when I have plenty of toughness and a decent amount of Vit. Especiall since one cannot tell what the hell the mob is doing when in a zerg DE.
Thought I would never say this but ESO seems to be the one game I would retire to that I though GW2 would have been.
Lore seems a bit inconsistent. By that the Charr... they role your character does and how they act is very inconsistent with what the race is projected as. I expected something.... more, everyone's a goody lil two shoe which is a bit annoying. The world is rich with lore but very little delving into it from what I can tell. Waiting to see how ESO's each faction has it's own objjective and each faction is a different experiance will pan out.
have seen way more complaints about people having trouble in GW2 dungeons than dungeons in other recent themeparks.. also you have tons of ways to make your character unique through traits/sigils/runes and utilities.. just watch the hundreds of youtube videos of sPVP tournys to see all the differn't ways you could build a character.. as far as top guilds and such all these features were not available at launch of most other games either and has been something they said they are working on putting in.. but again it's all about what you enjoy
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
then why you bother replying?
there's only so many games I can do this in till you make the realization it's just tedious and pointless.. true you could say this about playing any game. Point is all themeparks since wow have been more or less fundamentally the same the structure of the game is pretty much the same and honestly to me has gotten stale over the years.. GW2 at least is trying to mix things up and obviously not everyone will appreciate it.. i played 100s of warfronts in Rift to get tier 8 gear which at the time was the best.. but then what was there to do? run around ganking people in owpvp for what purpose? complete PVP rifts for what purpose?..
you just come to a point when you need more world structures like full exploration or political systems or ways to shape the world to want to play a game for very long periods of time.. GW2 doesn't solve this as it's been an issue in pretty much all themeparks.. for me I play them for fun and get the most out of the content and when I get bored I move on..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I see it like this. For years Theme Parks have been called "Games on rails" GW2 attempted to remove the rails. But unforutunately, the best they could do was a bumpercar system. Wander around your little controlled environment bumping off one thing to the next with little actual freedom to go anywhere you wanted.
The crux of the problem is that we talk about freedom but within the confines of a combat centric system. So many themeparks suffer from this, saying "Look at all the different ways you can...kill stuff!" Ok so what if I don't want to kill stuff? You can do these mini games, or puzzles, or craft something that aids in combat. And these systems are much needed but at the same time so rudimentary compared to the thousands of hours pored into the combat system.
And we all say, "well thats the main point of these games and what everyone wants to do". I think if a dev put in as much time into their combat system as say their crafting or housing systems, people would not get as bored so quickly. Nobody wants to play an afterthought. Thats what non combat systems are in mmos, an afterthought at best. Most of the time the point is to make combat more effective anyway so it all comes back to this combat centric theme.
So we convince ourselves that combat is paramount then wonder why it all feels so pointless or too gamey after the new car smell wears off. Notice how so many people only last a couple months with these new mmos? Is it a coincidence its about the same amount of time people spend playing action/adventure games on their consoles?
I hate the fact that we say this is such a great mmorpg for a themepark. The phrase 'for a themepark' is nothing more than an excuse these days. Why dont these games have robust crafting systems and deep player driven economies? Wheres the permanent player made structures? Oh, its because its a themepark? Is that even a compliment anymore? It sounds more like an apology.
One thing i noticed thats missing from these games are places to hang out. In games that i really liked they had this "feature"
Camp checks and random boss spawns.
In RO there was this place called the devi room. Higher lvls would just sit all around the room and wait for devis to spawn in hopes to get the evil wings to drop. was, at the time, the only place devis spawned i believe. But they changed it and poof goes the devi room.
There was also a cave that had mushrooms in it that alot of people would just hang out in.
These places need to make a comeback.
Everyone's got their own personal definition of themepark and sandbox, but you just described mine. What you're talking about is what I'd consider a sandbox - that is, gamplay that goes in all sorts of directions, other than combat. The limitations you're talking about, such combat-centric development and gameplay - that is the primary limitation inherent to MMO themepark design, IMHO. It creates such a railed-in limited and implausible 2d facade gameworld.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
For a themepark or for an MMO or for an MMORPG, I really don't care. I don't think GW2 is great. I think it's decent. For most, I think you can say you got your money's worth. But even that's subjective. But it's not a great game. A great game keeps me comming back month after month. And even then that's not all there is to it. I sub and play Rift. I think it's the best of what's available. It's a good game. But is it great? I'm not sure I would say it is.
Agreed. It is not only that those messages and markers pop up. Even simply turning them off would not change that much, because GW2 is designed to be played with this hand-holding present. Besides it is same dilemma like with cross-server LFG systems or quest gps - there are constant arguments that you don't have to use them. True. They still affect game enviroment you play within. It does not really matter that if single person turn it on or off, unless said person is playing this game as purely single player experience, which does not happen often since even most those who play alone say "I like playing when game world is populated with other people even if I don't talk to them".
There is also rewards thing, when you get generic rewards (karma, xp, some tokens) for most things you do in a game. When you get off beaten path and help someone or find some place you don't expect to get some generic points and 'congratulations you're great' message.
Ok some people like it and it is nothing wrong, but for some other people it devaluate experience and is definition of themepark where you get an candy at the end of the ride because you was so brave.
Of course it is NOT possible to please both of those groups and whatever choices will be made there will be always complaints about that.
this is the issue when you are catering to a mass audience.. as many know hearts were added because beta testers needed direction and were lost on how to play the game.. if there was no markers or anything people would be bitching left and right.. it's a much smaller group(me included) that wants completely open ended world with no markers or anything leading you by the hand.. it's just the drawback of making a game that caters to the majority... same reasons they don't make events with permanent effects as people would be bitching left and right they missed so and so event
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Wow... I must say I have exactly the same feeling. I didn't feel like I got my money's worth out of GW2 at all (thus why I refund, which btw, I NEVER do for a game). I just wasn't impressed at all by it. Any fun I had out of it quickly became drowned out with boredom after a few hours. Now now, don't give me that BS. "Its not ment to be played hardcore" BS excuse because the fact I can play games like Torchlight 2 for several hours straight without feeling burnt out on it already even long AFTER release only shows it isn't that apealing to me. Take away the flashy new things it has and its really got nothing behind it that really felt entertaining to play. Hearts actually made me miss traditional quests (far more boring) and I was deseperate to find events to hopefully have a decent time, and even half those events became boring.
Trust me, I don't want to hate it, but the game itself just feels like it doesn't want me to play it. I feel like a zombie and any sense of fun I had when I ultimately decided to quit for good was sapped within seconds of logging on and finding it a chore. It bothers me too cause it tried to change up how things were done at least a little (even if basically its the same old same old for quests and the likes) and I found it to be a worst experience I had in a big budget MMO, literally. I feel so bad for saying it but... I had more fun with SWTOR then I did GW2...
You don't know how much that made me cringe admitting that.
I sub to Rift as well and I think its a decent mmo. I also think its too combat centric although dimensions are a huge step in the right direction. When I played SWG for 8 years, i never felt this need to make sure I was getting my money's worth. It was just satisfying enough knowing on some server was my city, my home, my stuff and so was everyone else's. Now I gotta make sure I feel like im getting the best bang for my buck. Entertain me. All I really need are the tools and systems to entertain myself. Thats a huge problem with todays mmos and why so many people talk about burnout or hitting that wall.
The content needs be given back to the players. I want to be able to log on and be allowed to create. I want to log on and find out my friend's city is under attack. I want to log on and sit in a chair I made.
Bleh. Im just aimlessly blathering now, sorry.