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Are/Did Developers take MMORPG's in the wrong direction?

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  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
     

    Yup.

    People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/

    -Sad. and a growing trend .

    It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.

    Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?

    I don't.

    I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.

    Thank yopu for your honesty.

    It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..

    I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.

    Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.

    All to save a few bucks?

    Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.

    Using my car rather than walking / biking also 'impacts' me and I'm sure everyone else as well.

    'Environment, nature, green stuff blah blah blah'

    Do 'we' really care?

    Probably not. I certainly don't.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
     

    Yup.

    People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/

    -Sad. and a growing trend .

    It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.

    Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?

    I don't.

    I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.

    Thank yopu for your honesty.

    It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..

    I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.

    Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.

    All to save a few bucks?

    Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.

    Using my car rather than walking / biking also 'impacts' me and I'm sure everyone else as well.

    'Environment, nature, green stuff blah blah blah'

    Do 'we' really care?

    Probably not. I certainly don't.

    LOl- I think you took me the wrong way-

    I wasnt saying anything about "green energy" i was talking about the cost of fuel due to all the massive ships going back and forth from the USA to China... Personally I think "Global Warming" is more a myth to promote "carbon taxes" but that is another issue... Supply and demand is my point.

    If those ships were NOT being used supply would be higer and demand lower meaning cheaper gas.

    Outsourcing our jobs effects everyone who drives since we are all paying hiher prices so sharehlders make a buck.

    -Nevermind. Enjoy whats coming... My "career" is essentially over (i.e. I am semi- retired) but many of you will never have that opportunity. My family is taken care of and we have a pretty decent life with zero personal debt.

    I hope you all have the same opportunities I did. =(

  • mikecacklemikecackle City, ILPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.

     

    Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.

    Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.

    Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.

    Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?

     

  • MadamefateMadamefate Brooklyn, NYPosts: 171Member
    Sometimes I think all our expectations are too high. Some games are what they are and we expect a new beginning everything that is released.
  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.

     

    Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.

    Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.

    Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.

    Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?

     

    Red highlight.  THIS.

    That's what developers did. They identified most common complaints, but instead of trying to change / fix current solutions and features they just throw away alot of mmorpg original concepts and replaced them with simplier more streamlined concepts.  That fixed old complaints but also make mmorpg's simplier, more streamlined, more one-dimensional.

    That's also paved road for WoW financial success and that's why mainstream mmorpg developers still go that road.

    That's also what is making most mmorpg's dull and boring for me.

  • mikecacklemikecackle City, ILPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.

     

    Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.

    Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.

    Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.

    Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?

     

    Red highlight.  THIS.

    That's what developers did. They identified most common complaints, but instead of trying to change / fix current solutions and features they just throw away alot of mmorpg original concepts and replaced them with simplier more streamlined concepts.  That fixed old complaints but also make mmorpg's simplier, more streamlined, more one-dimensional.

    That's also what is making most mmorpg's dull and boring for me.

    I agree, it's what I call "bad linear design".

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Developers are always trying to tweak their games to make it more appealing to the masses.  If your game has 90% of the users gone after a day or two, then you'll have real problems making money with the game.  Therefore sometimes features are "dumbed" down to make sure more people get it.  I'm in the midst of alpha testing, and I see the issues of being "too complicated" now I have a decision to make.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    i think the key is to start simple ..end complicated.

    if you start complicated you will fail and if you end simple you probabally will too.

  • DakirnDakirn Kansas City, MOPosts: 374Member Uncommon

    I have another view and a question at the end.

     

    A lot of people say Indies never amounted to anything (lets ignore the fact that indies started the entire industry).  Like it or not, Darkfall was an idie game that made a profit and is even making a new version.

     

    Let me take two example indies that have been mentioned recently on MMORPG... Origins of Malu and Citadel of Sorcery.

     

    Before the question, I preface it with this:  Assume that both of those games release with exactly what they are offering (I'm being highly optimistic here because I want to see if I can cut through imagantive hype of failure)...

     

    Would you play one or both of them?

     

    It's a simple question.  If Origins of Malu created their vision of a world and PvP and it released, would you try it?

     

    If Citadel of Sorcery really did all that they are planning and released, would you play it?

     

    The point I'm trying to make is that consumers don't believe anyone anymore.. if either of those two release exactly what they said they would and it plays exactly like they said it would... would people still call indies failures?  Would successes on either of those scales change what people think of indies?

     

    Or would there still be hatred of indies that they can't ever do anything right, because a few that came before didn't do it right?

     

    A lot of people failed to fly before the Wright brothers figured it out... as is the same in countless other industries to ever exist.

     

    Just because the first few don't succeed doesn't mean that no other will.  I wish people would watch with hopeful scepticism instead of rabid denial and hatred anytime an indie comes up with an idea out of mainstream simply because "if a large publisher didn't do it, then an indie won't be able to either."

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    I dont think they went the wrong direction, per se, though WoW leads a lot of corporate suits to believe anyone can make the next 10+ million player game.  Where they've gone wrong is listening to suits, and not noticing that a lot players have evolved toward a deeper MMO experience.  Those of us who had this deeper experience from the beginning have seen the industry plunge into the dark ages of contrived MMO gaming.

    I really do applaud Smed for finally noticing what is missing in these themepark games.  The Wildstar devs are thinking about it too now, through I don't think they are going to do enough.  I could have told them a long, long time ago and saved the industry tens/dundreds of millions of dollars.. hahah.

     

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dakirn

    I have another view and a question at the end.

    A lot of people say Indies never amounted to anything ...

    Let me take two example indies that have been mentioned recently on MMORPG... Origins of Malu and Citadel of Sorcery.

    Before the question, I preface it with this:  Assume that both of those games release with exactly what they are offering (I'm being highly optimistic here because I want to see if I can cut through imagantive hype of failure)...

    To support your premise you suggest a scenario that flies in the face of history, fact and logic. Do you realize that?

    People have a poor view of indie MMOs because most of them are crap created by people that had no business trying to make an MMO in the first place. That's not bias, skew or hatred. It's looking at ten years of history and seeing a consistent pattern across the entire spectrum of indie MMOs, specifically among those by teams that have never released an MMO before, be they industry professionals or hobbyists. It's not 'imagantive hype of failure' - it's reality.

    Look, I'd love to see Citadel of Sorcery do well. I want them to do well. I truly believe in that team's determination and, frankly, they seem to have a really professional pool of talent there. However, it's not 'imagantive hype of failure' to say that there is 1 in 20 chance it will make it to release and an even smaller chance that what is released will be of a quality that will allow it to be competitive in today's market.

    "Just because the first few don't succeed doesn't mean that no other will."

    Such an odd statement.

    M59, EVE Online, Furcadia, Entropia, There, The Realm, Graal, Puzzle Pirates... MMOs were around before WOW, and so were indie developers.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I think MMOs went in their natural direction. WoW brought in people who were more apt to normal video games than DnD and it was a bigger pool. Bigger pool, more money and other companies followed suit. You can't really blame them. Things are changing again however from more formed console like gameplay to more choose your own adventure. We'll see how it pans out.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    biggest problem, to detriment of mmos imo is INSTANCING

    instanced dungeons, tupperware pvp, solo story phases, multiple shards of the same world zone

    these things are killing MMOS, they stop them being massive and multiplayer

     

    im not against zoning for performance reasons, providing thoose zones are singular and persistent.  but i am against instancing.

     

    That's exactly what people want. They don't want to rely that joe snuffy the uber tank or uber healer will be top of his game (of course everyone disregards those that DPS.) That's where the beauty of instancing came to be.

     

     

    To be "massively multiplayer" just for the sake of it .. is not fun.

    Instance is an innovation that keep the genre alive. People do not want to write their own stories, they want to play in one that professional developers creates.

    Small instances are popular for a reason.

    There is no wrong direction .. just trends where players respond to.

    And so what if more than 1 players go through the same story. You don't complain about that in other online multiplayer games like D3, and Borderlands. Why shouldn't MMOs take good features, and gameplay elements from other genre?

     

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    Wow...that was a lot to read through...couldn't even really dent it lol.

    I have to say one thing before I get off my usual soapbox when reading things like this....Runescape = Nothing like the Wow-esc over done MMO's your used to playing...There, sorry, had to say that first so it's out of the way.

    Now...

    I have to say that while by-and-large I can agree that the genre has lost it's way, there are some really promising things on the horizon. In an answer to repairing the MMO genre gaming companies are turning to the idea of a sandbox MMO environment. I really feel we won't have to suffer these repetative crank outs for much longer.

    I can name 2 games on the horizon that IMO, promise to go a long way towards setting an example of how to fix this genre.

    The first and likely most important is ArcheAge

    Yes we will have to wait at least 2 years until everyone can access open betas and possibly 3 for full release worldwide. But, go youtube this up-comming game. It's really amazing. Look at how one thing common in most game works alone in archeage. 

    That ebing mounts. Your mount in ArcheAge will have will wander up to you from some bushes or something (as if it's been tailing you waiting to be used) when summmoned. You can dismount it and have it go somewhere, or have it follow you. It acts as not just transportation for you, but giving people who aren't even level enough to have a mount them selves a ride some where. You can fuight from atop it, and it has it's own combat skills that grow with you. When you hit water it doesn't diapear in a poff but swims under you 9or behind you if you are dismounted).

    If you have ever thought mounts leave a lot to be desired in most MMo's and are largely only a status symbol this alone shoud show you how arche age will be different in every respect.

    The approach with arhceage is not to do anything revolutionary by it's own right, but to combine all the very best most desired features of  MMo's at large into one seamless blend. To do everything you thought was wrong with MMo's you played...the right way.

    I seriously suggest looking into this future MMO and seing all it has to offer to restore your hope in the genre.

    The second is Yogventures

    I think this game will be really fun to play because of the way it is being made. Basically if your not in the know two guys have chucked money at a company that knows what they are doing and told them what they wanted. this money comes from fans on kickstarter who have supported their ideas about what an MMO should be.

    So I believe this will be a rather unique and truly fun and engaging MMO experience when it releases. And it's worth taking a look at on the yogascast channel on youtube.

    image

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Helleri

    Wow...that was a lot to read through...couldn't even really dent it lol.

    I have to say one thing before I get off my usual soapbox when reading things like this....Runescape = Nothing like the Wow-esc over done MMO's your used to playing...There, sorry, had to say that first so it's out of the way.

    Now...

    I have to say that while by-and-large I can agree that the genre has lost it's way, there are some really promising things on the horizon. In an answer to repairing the MMO genre gaming companies are turning to the idea of a sandbox MMO environment. I really feel we won't have to suffer these repetative crank outs for much longer.

    I can name 2 games on the horizon that IMO, promise to go a long way towards setting an example of how to fix this genre.

    The first and likely most important is ArcheAge

    Yes we will have to wait at least 2 years until everyone can access open betas and possibly 3 for full release worldwide. But, go youtube this up-comming game. It's really amazing. Look at how one thing common in most game works alone in archeage. 

    That ebing mounts. Your mount in ArcheAge will have will wander up to you from some bushes or something (as if it's been tailing you waiting to be used) when summmoned. You can dismount it and have it go somewhere, or have it follow you. It acts as not just transportation for you, but giving people who aren't even level enough to have a mount them selves a ride some where. You can fuight from atop it, and it has it's own combat skills that grow with you. When you hit water it doesn't diapear in a poff but swims under you 9or behind you if you are dismounted).

    If you have ever thought mounts leave a lot to be desired in most MMo's and are largely only a status symbol this alone shoud show you how arche age will be different in every respect.

    The approach with arhceage is not to do anything revolutionary by it's own right, but to combine all the very best most desired features of  MMo's at large into one seamless blend. To do everything you thought was wrong with MMo's you played...the right way.

    I seriously suggest looking into this future MMO and seing all it has to offer to restore your hope in the genre.

    The second is Yogventures

    I think this game will be really fun to play because of the way it is being made. Basically if your not in the know two guys have chucked money at a company that knows what they are doing and told them what they wanted. this money comes from fans on kickstarter who have supported their ideas about what an MMO should be.

    So I believe this will be a rather unique and truly fun and engaging MMO experience when it releases. And it's worth taking a look at on the yogascast channel on youtube.

     and EQ next of course. :)

    image

  • JosherJosher Deerfield beach, FLPosts: 2,818Member
    If someone who played EQ for example, still has a schedule or lack there of that would allow them to play in the same way, I think that person should reevaluate their life and not wonder what's wrong with MMos.  They should wonder how on earth their life hasn't changed in that time period where they still want a game like that.  Big picture:)
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,710Member Uncommon
    This question keeps coming up.  The developers took MMORPGs in the exact direction that the vast majority of people wanted. If they didn't, people wouldn't have paid, and their direction would have had to of made a course correction to go in the direction that people did want.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    It seems to me our bitching has been heard. There are several sandbox games and even themepark/sandbox hybrids in development. They range from pure resource based economy and skill systems to fps style combat with open ended craft systems and seemless worlds to flat out hybrids with phasing and player driven economies. They are fantasy, post-apocalyptic (a personal hate of mine though sadly ... It seems our future is destined for zombies so I want to kick developers in the face for defaulting to this each and every time now), heavy pvp or heavy pve. Hopefully in just a short couple years we will see the dramatic change in direction or at least have a few good sandbox options finally.

     

    It wasn't that long ago that I had nearly lost all hope for the future of mmos. Now if EQNext is a steaming pile of shyte I will pretty much give up on them entirely unless a unlikely savious comes along. I do look forward to several atm though.

    You stay sassy!

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     
     People do not want to write their own stories, they want to play in one that professional developers creates.

    Small instances are popular for a reason.

    That's because what some people think of as "stories" are not really stories but anecdotes.

    Quests, instances, etc actually help to tell actual stories. depending upoin how well they do it there are character arcs, antagonists, protagonists, plot twists, or essentially Dramatic Structure. Over...

    hey you know what we did last night?

    what?

    We camped that lowbie area and kept pk'ing all the new players until X alliance came. Then we pvp'ed for an hour

    Wow sounds fun

    Yeah, a great time.

     

    This is what some people think of as "story". it's a good time and very much wanted as far as player interaction but it's not very good story.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Zylax
    Successful indie mmos.
    Uo - ea bought them later
    Daoc - ea bought them later
    EQ - Sony bought them later
    Eve - still is
    Wow - blizzard were independent at the time.


    Part of this depends on your definition of "indy" but EA owned origin before UO even began development, and Verant studeos was created first within sony and then "spun off" during EQ development (which John Smedley was in charge of from day 1) then Verant was brough back into the Sony brand.  So the two pioneers of the genre were run by big money/corporations from the beginning.  And whil Blizzard wasn't a corporate entity or ran by a corporate entity, I don't really think they fit the term "indy" by any definition of the term that i've ever seen used.  DAOC and AC were pretty "indy" at the time of their launches but neither of them were as successfull as the other two at their peaks.  Oh, and CCP was pretty indy at the time of EvE's launch.

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    I don't think our hate speaches at MMO makers is a plea to return to the correct path so much as it is begging them to give real MMO'ers back their MMO's

    The worste thing WoW ever did was open up the genre and positioon it to become an any one can play environment. The rage against WoW-escs is rage against redundant, linear, easy gameplay that just anyone and pick up and play, without a thought towards using their intelligence.

    Trying not to be mean about it... But, more bluntly and directly, companies made it easy for stupid people to play, because stupid people are easier to get more money out of for less effort. And, all i think we really want with reform to the Genre is a ban on stupid people.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Helleri

    Trying not to be mean about it... But, more bluntly and directly, companies made it easy for stupid people to play, because stupid people are easier to get more money out of for less effort. And, all i think we really want with reform to the Genre is a ban on stupid people.

    Yeah, I tend not to find a lot of credence in any group that sets itself up as "the intelligentsia" because another group doesn't embrace their ideals. I say this a lot but it comes down to plato's philosopher kings or essentially "only those who are philosphers should be kings because they are the only people who know better.

    back in the original EQ days, at its height, there were plenty of of people who played who weren't the brightest bulbs in the sky. They were probably a bit nerdy or a bit misanthropic but fell into the original mmo vanguard.

    there are a lot of very smart people who play modern mmo's simply because they offer a diversion or are "fun".

    Heck, a friend of mine is extremely smart, PhD, can speak intelligently on many topics but her tastes in T.V. make me squint my eyes in disbelief.

    I tend not to judge people on the content they take part in because time and time again that doens't really offer the full picture.

    And again, there are still people who view gamers as people who are wasting their time when they can be doing somethng, anyting, that actually matters. I'm sure they might think that gamers are stupid for being gamers.

    All this does is create a lot of misinformation and a lot of hate where there doesn't need to be any.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Helleri
    I don't think our hate speaches at MMO makers is a plea to return to the correct path so much as it is begging them to give real MMO'ers back their MMO'sThe worste thing WoW ever did was open up the genre and positioon it to become an any one can play environment. The rage against WoW-escs is rage against redundant, linear, easy gameplay that just anyone and pick up and play, without a thought towards using their intelligence.Trying not to be mean about it... But, more bluntly and directly, companies made it easy for stupid people to play, because stupid people are easier to get more money out of for less effort. And, all i think we really want with reform to the Genre is a ban on stupid people.

    "Real MMO'ers"? You mean the small group of people who can't pay enough money to fund a single MMO? Wait, I know, it's the small group of people who cannot agree on what an MMO is. No, maybe it's the small group of people who can't agree on what an MMO should be. Are those the "Real MMO'ers"?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Niceguy

    Oh fair dos with EQ and uo then.

    Still stand by daoc, ac and eve as successful Indies though.

    Also coh, was that owned by ncsoft from the start? Don't remember to be honest.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Would Ao count as a successful Indie too? Did it make money?
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