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Are/Did Developers take MMORPG's in the wrong direction?

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  • VardahothVardahoth Temecula, CAPosts: 384Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vardahoth
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Vardahoth

    do ones that no longer exist count? if so... squaresoft.

    Good!  Wait...didn't Square-Enix make that porn game before the FF's?

    Square-Enix bought out squaresoft (not the same company).

    Sorry I meant to say Squaresoft merged with Enix (not bought out by). But since the merge it has not been the same company. They produced quantity over quality games. Myself and millions of other gamers were dissappointed by this.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW".

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Vardahoth
    Originally posted by Vardahoth
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Vardahoth

    do ones that no longer exist count? if so... squaresoft.

    Good!  Wait...didn't Square-Enix make that porn game before the FF's?

    Square-Enix bought out squaresoft (not the same company).

    Sorry I meant to say Squaresoft merged with Enix (not bought out by). But since the merge it has not been the same company. They produced quantity over quality games. Myself and millions of other gamers were dissappointed by this.

    -I know what you meant =)

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    biggest problem, to detriment of mmos imo is INSTANCING

    instanced dungeons, tupperware pvp, solo story phases, multiple shards of the same world zone

    these things are killing MMOS, they stop them being massive and multiplayer

     

    im not against zoning for performance reasons, providing thoose zones are singular and persistent.  but i am against instancing.

     

    That's exactly what people want. They don't want to rely that joe snuffy the uber tank or uber healer will be top of his game (of course everyone disregards those that DPS.) That's where the beauty of instancing came to be.

     

     

  • VardahothVardahoth Temecula, CAPosts: 384Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Why is it neccessary to like companies? Companies main purpose is to make profit so not sure why you have to like such an entity.

    ....

    A sad world we live in these days. The most profitable company in the History of the World (Apple) with taxpayer contracts uses slave labor.

    But hey "I like my Ipad"...

    -Its unfortunate the utter defence some will go through because they like a brand name or product... Myself? I try not to support slavery since I really think that by voting with my dollar I either agree with said slavery or dont...

    -But we go off topic..

    This generation is in real trouble... When rockerfewller funded the department on Education he said "I was a nation of Workers not thinkers" and this is what we have now... Workers without work due to our measley wages being higher than that of third world nations.

     

    1 word - Foxcon

    I remember laughing with my boss when she found the news article that they installed safety nets around the buildings because too many employees were committing suicide. I only laughed because the way she said "This is not a solution!".

    But guess what, you open up your pc and look at some of the parts, and you will see foxcon imprented.

    In a different sense, look at wallmart. They use sweatshops to create quantity items (not great quality) in order to feed the needs of america at a cheap price. Do I buy from wallmart? Only when I was living in poverty and can't afford the prices anywhere else.

     

    You can't blame people for buying a better deal, but you can blame people for supplying that better deal.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW".

  • VardahothVardahoth Temecula, CAPosts: 384Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    biggest problem, to detriment of mmos imo is INSTANCING

    instanced dungeons, tupperware pvp, solo story phases, multiple shards of the same world zone

    these things are killing MMOS, they stop them being massive and multiplayer

     

    im not against zoning for performance reasons, providing thoose zones are singular and persistent.  but i am against instancing.

     

    That's exactly what people want. They don't want to rely that joe snuffy the uber tank or uber healer will be top of his game (of course everyone disregards those that DPS.) That's where the beauty of instancing came to be.

     

     

    Thats not what I wanted, and you can read that here: http://www.onrpg.com/boards/showthread.php?204467-Looking-for-a-mmorpg-to-play&highlight=

     

    Again it goes back to my thread about companies need to stop creating a game that tries to appease everyone, and instead needs to make different flavors.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW".

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Vardahoth
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Why is it neccessary to like companies? Companies main purpose is to make profit so not sure why you have to like such an entity.

    ....

    A sad world we live in these days. The most profitable company in the History of the World (Apple) with taxpayer contracts uses slave labor.

    But hey "I like my Ipad"...

    -Its unfortunate the utter defence some will go through because they like a brand name or product... Myself? I try not to support slavery since I really think that by voting with my dollar I either agree with said slavery or dont...

    -But we go off topic..

    This generation is in real trouble... When rockerfewller funded the department on Education he said "I was a nation of Workers not thinkers" and this is what we have now... Workers without work due to our measley wages being higher than that of third world nations.

     

    1 word - Foxcon

    I remember laughing with my boss when she found the news article that they installed safety nets around the buildings because too many employees were committing suicide. I only laughed because the way she said "This is not a solution!".

    But guess what, you open up your pc and look at some of the parts, and you will see foxcon imprented.

    In a different sense, look at wallmart. They use sweatshops to create quantity items (not great quality) in order to feed the needs of america at a cheap price. Do I buy from wallmart? Only when I was living in poverty and can't afford the prices anywhere else.

     

    You can't blame people for buying a better deal, but you can blame people for supplying that better deal.

    +100

    And yes, you cannot avoid this since greed has trumped all in the "search for greater profit"

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Why is it neccessary to like companies? Companies main purpose is to make profit so not sure why you have to like such an entity.

    Oddly, in my world, "not hating" and "liking" are not identical.

    I'm not a good gamer, my universe isn't black and white :hang head:

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Why is it neccessary to like companies? Companies main purpose is to make profit so not sure why you have to like such an entity.

    Oddly, in my world, "not hating" and "liking" are not identical.

    You Sir/ma'am are correct in my understanding.

    I think its also very possible to Love a product but "hate" (or dislike...) the Company which makes it for ethical reasons or otherwise...

    But yes, as you state- It isnt nessasarily "black" and "white" (like most things) but often gets painted as seeming to be...

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Its like people figured out capitalism exists...holy shit.

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    But yes, as you state- It isnt nessasarily "black" and "white" (like most things) but often gets painted as seeming to be...

    You hate 100% of corporations (except maybe, used to, like GM).

    Doesn't get much more bifurcative than that, honestly.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    But yes, as you state- It isnt nessasarily "black" and "white" (like most things) but often gets painted as seeming to be...

    You hate 100% of corporations (except maybe, used to, like GM).

    Doesn't get much more binomial than that, honestly.

    No... It doesnt. But anyhow...

     

  • modusmodus Unknown, ONPosts: 55Member Uncommon
    Yes!
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    No... It doesnt. But anyhow...

     

    Only two states exist: you hate it, or it's not a corporation.  That's what you said earlier, not a single corporation you didn't hate (except maybe, qualified, GM)?

    Not much grey in there.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by modus
    Yes!

    No. Because I have no idea if I hate 100% of corporations or not...Alot of corporations around and limited time to study them each individually.

    I said I couldnt THINK of one I liked- And I cannot. I have studied (i.e. not "liked a product they made") corporate greed for many a year and very in depth and thus far I have not really found one I would say I "like"- That does not mean I dislike everything they do- I am speaking ethically and as a whole.

    -I am sure your in depth studies have uncovered some great corporation- Mine have not.. And I will not make assumptions absent of information.

    Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?

    Gaming companies? I worked for Simutronics for quite a while, and enjoyed their games, as well as their covering my gaming bills for roughly a decade.  Guess that qualifies as "like".  Didn't feel taken advantage of and victimized by, at any rate.

    I have, in my employment history, worked for four other corporations, who paid the bills for my family. Reactions mixed, not all roses...but certainly not all stanky either.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?

    Gaming companies? I worked for Simutronics for quite a while, and enjoyed their games, as well as their covering my gaming bills for roughly a decade.  Guess that qualifies as "like".  Didn't feel taken advantage of and victimized by, at any rate.

    Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.

    I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.

    I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-

    You seem to be qualifiying your earlier stances a bit.

    Rhetorical Hyperbole is a very difficult habit to give up, isn't it?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.

    I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-

    You seem to be qualifiying your earlier stances a bit.

    Rhetorical Hyperbole is a very difficult habit to give up, isn't it?

    Please explain?

    Unlike you I can seperate personal experience and a prooduct I "like" with a good Corporation. I can like Coke/Pepsi as a product and abhor their treatment of Workers in Mexico (and now the South)- I can like a game and not like the corporation responsible for that game.

    -Unlike (evidently) you- I can look at the big picture.

    EDIT: I would also like to add that since "Money became free speech" the corporation I worked for (and my salray) made a MINTT off your tax dollars for overinflated Bids...Legally. Thank you... I guess since it paid off my house I should really like corporations then? Even though the same job could have done for vastly cheaper if not for our lovely Lobby and new Corporatre laws...

    -Eh its just other peoples Taxes...

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I recall an Apple exec saying 'People don't care what the worker condition in China is, they care that their Iphone works' (paraphrasing at bit).

    To be frank, the exec wasn't wrong about how I feel in that regard.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    I recall an Apple exec saying 'People don't care what the worker condition in China is, they care that their Iphone works' (paraphrasing at bit).

    To be frank, the exec wasn't wrong about how I feel in that regard.

    Yup.

    People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/

    -Sad. and a growing trend .

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,441Member Uncommon

    Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.

     

    Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.

    Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.

    Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
     

    Yup.

    People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/

    -Sad. and a growing trend .

    It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.

    Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?

    I don't.

    I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Err I love mythic, they made the best game ever.

    But they don't exist anymore
  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
     

    Yup.

    People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/

    -Sad. and a growing trend .

    It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.

    Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?

    I don't.

    I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.

    Thank yopu for your honesty.

    It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..

    I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.

    Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.

    All to save a few bucks?

    Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Honestly, this is one of those discussions that I think we (the players) need to really take a good hard look at ourselves for.

    Why?

    Because a lot of what's happening to the industry is a direct result of what we (the players) have asked for. This isn't to say that you personally are responsible, but rather the collective we. Us players, as a whole have contributed a lot to this mess. And no, I don't expect anyone to ever own up to that.

    MMOs are expensive. Developers aren't going to make MMOs they aren't sure people will play. Would you? Frontlining some of these projects means putting your neck & credibility on the line for 10s or 100s of millions of dollars.

    More importantly though, we as players are very fickle in what we play. We are very reluctant to try new types of MMOs. Many of us are constantly trying to 'rediscover' games we've already played. And many of us will easily abandon a developer who is trying new things, rather than to try and support those new ideas with feedback, money, or encouragement.

    Think about this for a moment. When was the last time you actually told a developer you liked a feature? Not just posted on a forumn somewhere hoping they'd see it, but actually giving them direct feedback? I know for many of us, that's probably been a while. And it's not because there haven't been any decent features made, it's because we're lazy, or assume someone else will do it. When enough people assume 'someone else will do it', that quickly turns into 'almost noone is doing it'.

    From what I've seen, developers are trying to use the tools they have (and even develope new tools) to try and deliver what they see us asking for. Sure they make mistakes, and some of them are pretty bad, but can you really expect them to make games we like, if we can't give constructive feedback as to what that actually is? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe the focus is too much on what we're asking for, and not on what makes a good game.

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