But yes, as you state- It isnt nessasarily "black" and "white" (like most things) but often gets painted as seeming to be...
You hate 100% of corporations (except maybe, used to, like GM).
Doesn't get much more bifurcative than that, honestly.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Only two states exist: you hate it, or it's not a corporation. That's what you said earlier, not a single corporation you didn't hate (except maybe, qualified, GM)?
Not much grey in there.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No. Because I have no idea if I hate 100% of corporations or not...Alot of corporations around and limited time to study them each individually.
I said I couldnt THINK of one I liked- And I cannot. I have studied (i.e. not "liked a product they made") corporate greed for many a year and very in depth and thus far I have not really found one I would say I "like"- That does not mean I dislike everything they do- I am speaking ethically and as a whole.
-I am sure your in depth studies have uncovered some great corporation- Mine have not.. And I will not make assumptions absent of information.
Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?
Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?
Gaming companies? I worked for Simutronics for quite a while, and enjoyed their games, as well as their covering my gaming bills for roughly a decade. Guess that qualifies as "like". Didn't feel taken advantage of and victimized by, at any rate.
I have, in my employment history, worked for four other corporations, who paid the bills for my family. Reactions mixed, not all roses...but certainly not all stanky either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?
Gaming companies? I worked for Simutronics for quite a while, and enjoyed their games, as well as their covering my gaming bills for roughly a decade. Guess that qualifies as "like". Didn't feel taken advantage of and victimized by, at any rate.
Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.
I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-
Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.
I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-
You seem to be qualifiying your earlier stances a bit.
Rhetorical Hyperbole is a very difficult habit to give up, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.
I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-
You seem to be qualifiying your earlier stances a bit.
Rhetorical Hyperbole is a very difficult habit to give up, isn't it?
Please explain?
Unlike you I can seperate personal experience and a prooduct I "like" with a good Corporation. I can like Coke/Pepsi as a product and abhor their treatment of Workers in Mexico (and now the South)- I can like a game and not like the corporation responsible for that game.
-Unlike (evidently) you- I can look at the big picture.
EDIT: I would also like to add that since "Money became free speech" the corporation I worked for (and my salray) made a MINTT off your tax dollars for overinflated Bids...Legally. Thank you... I guess since it paid off my house I should really like corporations then? Even though the same job could have done for vastly cheaper if not for our lovely Lobby and new Corporatre laws...
I recall an Apple exec saying 'People don't care what the worker condition in China is, they care that their Iphone works' (paraphrasing at bit).
To be frank, the exec wasn't wrong about how I feel in that regard.
Yup.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.
Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.
Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.
Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
-Sad. and a growing trend .
It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.
Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?
I don't.
I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
-Sad. and a growing trend .
It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.
Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?
I don't.
I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.
Thank yopu for your honesty.
It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..
I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.
Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.
Honestly, this is one of those discussions that I think we (the players) need to really take a good hard look at ourselves for.
Why?
Because a lot of what's happening to the industry is a direct result of what we (the players) have asked for. This isn't to say that you personally are responsible, but rather the collective we. Us players, as a whole have contributed a lot to this mess. And no, I don't expect anyone to ever own up to that.
MMOs are expensive. Developers aren't going to make MMOs they aren't sure people will play. Would you? Frontlining some of these projects means putting your neck & credibility on the line for 10s or 100s of millions of dollars.
More importantly though, we as players are very fickle in what we play. We are very reluctant to try new types of MMOs. Many of us are constantly trying to 'rediscover' games we've already played. And many of us will easily abandon a developer who is trying new things, rather than to try and support those new ideas with feedback, money, or encouragement.
Think about this for a moment. When was the last time you actually told a developer you liked a feature? Not just posted on a forumn somewhere hoping they'd see it, but actually giving them direct feedback? I know for many of us, that's probably been a while. And it's not because there haven't been any decent features made, it's because we're lazy, or assume someone else will do it. When enough people assume 'someone else will do it', that quickly turns into 'almost noone is doing it'.
From what I've seen, developers are trying to use the tools they have (and even develope new tools) to try and deliver what they see us asking for. Sure they make mistakes, and some of them are pretty bad, but can you really expect them to make games we like, if we can't give constructive feedback as to what that actually is? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe the focus is too much on what we're asking for, and not on what makes a good game.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
-Sad. and a growing trend .
It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.
Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?
I don't.
I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.
Thank yopu for your honesty.
It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..
I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.
Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.
All to save a few bucks?
Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.
Using my car rather than walking / biking also 'impacts' me and I'm sure everyone else as well.
'Environment, nature, green stuff blah blah blah'
Do 'we' really care?
Probably not. I certainly don't.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
-Sad. and a growing trend .
It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.
Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?
I don't.
I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.
Thank yopu for your honesty.
It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..
I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.
Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.
All to save a few bucks?
Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.
Using my car rather than walking / biking also 'impacts' me and I'm sure everyone else as well.
'Environment, nature, green stuff blah blah blah'
Do 'we' really care?
Probably not. I certainly don't.
LOl- I think you took me the wrong way-
I wasnt saying anything about "green energy" i was talking about the cost of fuel due to all the massive ships going back and forth from the USA to China... Personally I think "Global Warming" is more a myth to promote "carbon taxes" but that is another issue... Supply and demand is my point.
If those ships were NOT being used supply would be higer and demand lower meaning cheaper gas.
Outsourcing our jobs effects everyone who drives since we are all paying hiher prices so sharehlders make a buck.
-Nevermind. Enjoy whats coming... My "career" is essentially over (i.e. I am semi- retired) but many of you will never have that opportunity. My family is taken care of and we have a pretty decent life with zero personal debt.
I hope you all have the same opportunities I did. =(
Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.
Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.
Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.
Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.
Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?
Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.
Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.
Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.
Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.
Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?
Red highlight. THIS.
That's what developers did. They identified most common complaints, but instead of trying to change / fix current solutions and features they just throw away alot of mmorpg original concepts and replaced them with simplier more streamlined concepts. That fixed old complaints but also make mmorpg's simplier, more streamlined, more one-dimensional.
That's also paved road for WoW financial success and that's why mainstream mmorpg developers still go that road.
That's also what is making most mmorpg's dull and boring for me.
Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.
Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.
Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.
Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.
Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?
Red highlight. THIS.
That's what developers did. They identified most common complaints, but instead of trying to change / fix current solutions and features they just throw away alot of mmorpg original concepts and replaced them with simplier more streamlined concepts. That fixed old complaints but also make mmorpg's simplier, more streamlined, more one-dimensional.
That's also what is making most mmorpg's dull and boring for me.
Developers are always trying to tweak their games to make it more appealing to the masses. If your game has 90% of the users gone after a day or two, then you'll have real problems making money with the game. Therefore sometimes features are "dumbed" down to make sure more people get it. I'm in the midst of alpha testing, and I see the issues of being "too complicated" now I have a decision to make.
A lot of people say Indies never amounted to anything (lets ignore the fact that indies started the entire industry). Like it or not, Darkfall was an idie game that made a profit and is even making a new version.
Let me take two example indies that have been mentioned recently on MMORPG... Origins of Malu and Citadel of Sorcery.
Before the question, I preface it with this: Assume that both of those games release with exactly what they are offering (I'm being highly optimistic here because I want to see if I can cut through imagantive hype of failure)...
Would you play one or both of them?
It's a simple question. If Origins of Malu created their vision of a world and PvP and it released, would you try it?
If Citadel of Sorcery really did all that they are planning and released, would you play it?
The point I'm trying to make is that consumers don't believe anyone anymore.. if either of those two release exactly what they said they would and it plays exactly like they said it would... would people still call indies failures? Would successes on either of those scales change what people think of indies?
Or would there still be hatred of indies that they can't ever do anything right, because a few that came before didn't do it right?
A lot of people failed to fly before the Wright brothers figured it out... as is the same in countless other industries to ever exist.
Just because the first few don't succeed doesn't mean that no other will. I wish people would watch with hopeful scepticism instead of rabid denial and hatred anytime an indie comes up with an idea out of mainstream simply because "if a large publisher didn't do it, then an indie won't be able to either."
Comments
You hate 100% of corporations (except maybe, used to, like GM).
Doesn't get much more bifurcative than that, honestly.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No... It doesnt. But anyhow...
Only two states exist: you hate it, or it's not a corporation. That's what you said earlier, not a single corporation you didn't hate (except maybe, qualified, GM)?
Not much grey in there.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No. Because I have no idea if I hate 100% of corporations or not...Alot of corporations around and limited time to study them each individually.
I said I couldnt THINK of one I liked- And I cannot. I have studied (i.e. not "liked a product they made") corporate greed for many a year and very in depth and thus far I have not really found one I would say I "like"- That does not mean I dislike everything they do- I am speaking ethically and as a whole.
-I am sure your in depth studies have uncovered some great corporation- Mine have not.. And I will not make assumptions absent of information.
Hey Ice how about you tell me what corporations you like?
Gaming companies? I worked for Simutronics for quite a while, and enjoyed their games, as well as their covering my gaming bills for roughly a decade. Guess that qualifies as "like". Didn't feel taken advantage of and victimized by, at any rate.
I have, in my employment history, worked for four other corporations, who paid the bills for my family. Reactions mixed, not all roses...but certainly not all stanky either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Fair enough. I am unfamiliar with them and have little idea how they operate.
I worked for a Corporation which trreated me VERY WELL and I made a mint- In fact, those of us in the USA and CANADA had very good jobs and were treated really well. I liked my job but hated the "Corporation" for reasons of ethics (not concerning myself)-
You seem to be qualifiying your earlier stances a bit.
Rhetorical Hyperbole is a very difficult habit to give up, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Please explain?
Unlike you I can seperate personal experience and a prooduct I "like" with a good Corporation. I can like Coke/Pepsi as a product and abhor their treatment of Workers in Mexico (and now the South)- I can like a game and not like the corporation responsible for that game.
-Unlike (evidently) you- I can look at the big picture.
EDIT: I would also like to add that since "Money became free speech" the corporation I worked for (and my salray) made a MINTT off your tax dollars for overinflated Bids...Legally. Thank you... I guess since it paid off my house I should really like corporations then? Even though the same job could have done for vastly cheaper if not for our lovely Lobby and new Corporatre laws...
-Eh its just other peoples Taxes...
I recall an Apple exec saying 'People don't care what the worker condition in China is, they care that their Iphone works' (paraphrasing at bit).
To be frank, the exec wasn't wrong about how I feel in that regard.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yup.
People are so conditioned to "identify" with a "brand" that they think any company which makes a product they like is their "friend" or something - They would NEVER do anything shady because I like my Ipod. =/
-Sad. and a growing trend .
Er.. what players (the masses) thought they wanted took MMORPGs into this direction. Where by design, doesn't produce a strong community nor one with longevity.
Quests! WOOO yeah! No more kill grinds. Wait, this is getting old because they are all nearly the same.
Storylines! WOOO yeah! No more dull quests! Wait, after I do it once I don't want to ever do it again.
Dynamic content! WOOO yeah! No more quest hubs. Wait, no this gets boring.
It isn't brand loyalty, at least I don't think so.
Why would I care what the worker conditions are in China?
I don't.
I care that my Iphone works cause that impacts me.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
But they don't exist anymore
Thank yopu for your honesty.
It DOES impact you though- because as life gets cheaper and cheaper no company will hire an American whos labor has value..
I saw statistics (although I am throwing this off the top of my head) that if Ipods were made here and employees made an average of $17/hour it would ONLY increase an Ipod by around $25... The shipping alone is part and parcel to our gas prices being so high since demand for Oil is higher based on shipping.
Those jobs NOT BEING HERE impact you- If you are an autoworker there are less who can afford cars- if you are a waiter there are smaller tips and less buisness.
All to save a few bucks?
Cost goes way beyond the base cost of a product.
Honestly, this is one of those discussions that I think we (the players) need to really take a good hard look at ourselves for.
Why?
Because a lot of what's happening to the industry is a direct result of what we (the players) have asked for. This isn't to say that you personally are responsible, but rather the collective we. Us players, as a whole have contributed a lot to this mess. And no, I don't expect anyone to ever own up to that.
MMOs are expensive. Developers aren't going to make MMOs they aren't sure people will play. Would you? Frontlining some of these projects means putting your neck & credibility on the line for 10s or 100s of millions of dollars.
More importantly though, we as players are very fickle in what we play. We are very reluctant to try new types of MMOs. Many of us are constantly trying to 'rediscover' games we've already played. And many of us will easily abandon a developer who is trying new things, rather than to try and support those new ideas with feedback, money, or encouragement.
Think about this for a moment. When was the last time you actually told a developer you liked a feature? Not just posted on a forumn somewhere hoping they'd see it, but actually giving them direct feedback? I know for many of us, that's probably been a while. And it's not because there haven't been any decent features made, it's because we're lazy, or assume someone else will do it. When enough people assume 'someone else will do it', that quickly turns into 'almost noone is doing it'.
From what I've seen, developers are trying to use the tools they have (and even develope new tools) to try and deliver what they see us asking for. Sure they make mistakes, and some of them are pretty bad, but can you really expect them to make games we like, if we can't give constructive feedback as to what that actually is? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe the focus is too much on what we're asking for, and not on what makes a good game.
Using my car rather than walking / biking also 'impacts' me and I'm sure everyone else as well.
'Environment, nature, green stuff blah blah blah'
Do 'we' really care?
Probably not. I certainly don't.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
LOl- I think you took me the wrong way-
I wasnt saying anything about "green energy" i was talking about the cost of fuel due to all the massive ships going back and forth from the USA to China... Personally I think "Global Warming" is more a myth to promote "carbon taxes" but that is another issue... Supply and demand is my point.
If those ships were NOT being used supply would be higer and demand lower meaning cheaper gas.
Outsourcing our jobs effects everyone who drives since we are all paying hiher prices so sharehlders make a buck.
-Nevermind. Enjoy whats coming... My "career" is essentially over (i.e. I am semi- retired) but many of you will never have that opportunity. My family is taken care of and we have a pretty decent life with zero personal debt.
I hope you all have the same opportunities I did. =(
Are you saying that developers actually gave players what they wanted exactly or interpreted their customers complaints wrong? Or perhaps developers took their customer complaints and chose the easiest solutions?
Regards,
Mike Cackle
My YouTube Channel
Red highlight. THIS.
That's what developers did. They identified most common complaints, but instead of trying to change / fix current solutions and features they just throw away alot of mmorpg original concepts and replaced them with simplier more streamlined concepts. That fixed old complaints but also make mmorpg's simplier, more streamlined, more one-dimensional.
That's also paved road for WoW financial success and that's why mainstream mmorpg developers still go that road.
That's also what is making most mmorpg's dull and boring for me.
I agree, it's what I call "bad linear design".
Regards,
Mike Cackle
My YouTube Channel
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
i think the key is to start simple ..end complicated.
if you start complicated you will fail and if you end simple you probabally will too.
I have another view and a question at the end.
A lot of people say Indies never amounted to anything (lets ignore the fact that indies started the entire industry). Like it or not, Darkfall was an idie game that made a profit and is even making a new version.
Let me take two example indies that have been mentioned recently on MMORPG... Origins of Malu and Citadel of Sorcery.
Before the question, I preface it with this: Assume that both of those games release with exactly what they are offering (I'm being highly optimistic here because I want to see if I can cut through imagantive hype of failure)...
Would you play one or both of them?
It's a simple question. If Origins of Malu created their vision of a world and PvP and it released, would you try it?
If Citadel of Sorcery really did all that they are planning and released, would you play it?
The point I'm trying to make is that consumers don't believe anyone anymore.. if either of those two release exactly what they said they would and it plays exactly like they said it would... would people still call indies failures? Would successes on either of those scales change what people think of indies?
Or would there still be hatred of indies that they can't ever do anything right, because a few that came before didn't do it right?
A lot of people failed to fly before the Wright brothers figured it out... as is the same in countless other industries to ever exist.
Just because the first few don't succeed doesn't mean that no other will. I wish people would watch with hopeful scepticism instead of rabid denial and hatred anytime an indie comes up with an idea out of mainstream simply because "if a large publisher didn't do it, then an indie won't be able to either."