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Originally posted by tordurbar Originally posted by Iselin Theme parks are all about learning new systems or the new variation of the old system and leveling. If you stick around after that it's just gravy. The problem as I see it is that we continue to hope that every new MMO will provide some magical activity that will keep us happy indefinitely. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment. if we continue to play or go back to play it's usually because of some unique personal reason. Me, I like alts and redoing content with new abilities are fun... Not as much fun as the first time around but something I enjoy nevertheless. One good thing about GW2: no sub. Come back or not when the mood strikes you then stay for a day, a week or a month. Life's too short to feel like you are required to enjoy something you don't any more... certainly not when it comes to our chosen form of entertainment. i never say I'm leaving an MMO for good.... I may just be back.
For six years I played WOW - almost every day. That is part of my problem - I keep on looking for the next WOW. It is not going to happen. Yet, like you, I suppose I will just keep trying every one...
I really undestand that sentiment. I played Lineage for years (not 6 though) and for a long time looked for a game to replace it. The search is kind of fruitless and totally frustrating. I guess we each have to come to our own terms about our hobby, but I found that just taking each game for what it is helps a lot. I'm not trying to play Lineage in GW2 or RIFT or EQ2 or whatever anymore. I'm just playing the game and that is all.
Well, the problem actually is that 'the next WOW' has already happened, and it keeps happening. However, the model of fun that WOW is based off of has inherent problems. This video kinda sums it up pretty nicely.
WOW is a skinner box mechanic, and as more and more games copy that, people find more and more efficient ways to circumvent, exploit, or burn through that same mechanic.
In short, it's not that the 'next WOW' won't happen. It that the 'next WOW' won't feel anywhere near the same as the inital one (a trend most of us are VERY familiar with). If it's that initial feeling you want, and aren't still tied to the mechanics, then the 'next WOW' for you, will actually be a completely different game.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by GeezerGamer GW2 has the most respectabel cash shop I have seen yet. But only in terms of what's relative from one player to the next. I have said this before. I applaud ANET for being one of the only companies to not bullshit it's players and did not introduce some hidden P2W mechanics and some slippery wording to cover it up. (**CoughfuncomCough**) But I don not consider GW2's Cash Shop to be totally benign. The game's economy is all but nonexistant. Being able to buy boxing gloves and sunglasses undermines the whole concept of progression. It doesn't matter than there are no stats to it. It's in the game, you should have to do something to get it. And, yeah, I get that it's possible to make all items in the game also. But it's still a form of progression. It is something....anything, that get's players out there doing something in the game, then it's one more thing to keep you playing and or do with someone else. If I buy it in the shop, what's the point of playing the game?
RIFT sells mounts and extra goodies with some upgrade packs. What's the point in playing that game then?
you missed my earlier post. I've already expressed my dislike of those and they are very close to the line. In fact they are prettymuch sitting on it. If Deep's Depot put's one thing in there I can wear, use or consume, then there is no point and I'll quit Rift too.
I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
Because it seems, I don't have a choice. "Stuff" included with CE's are just part of the evolution of it all. It's not about this item is ok but the next one isn't. It's that, should they go that route, I know where it evenutally ends. It's not about a free pass, it's about where does it start and where does it stop. If it stops "here" I can live with it, but setting foot down "that path" taking one more step and one more step, I'm not walking down a road that I know where it ends.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by xAPOCx Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads. Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.
Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.
I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.
(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
How can you not know that EVE is older than WoW?
The problem with sandbox vs themepark is that all the themepark games are AAA with huge advertisments. The total money spent into themepark vs sandbox might be in 99:1 ratio.
Originally posted by BadSpock First off - want to say that I still think GW2 is a great game for what it is - the quality is high, the fun is worth the price of admission, and I still stand by my original review/op-ed that GW2 is an amazing game. But I'm just not sure it's for me. Longevity was always my biggest concern with GW2 - and I've hit that slump. I know I'll be back, probably often as the business model is perfect for me - the "modern" MMO gamer who hops from game to game and can't stay interested in one thing for too long. But i've just hit a wall. -My main is level 77 or 78, and I've been seriously let down. -Finally did a big dragon fight, Taquatl the Sunless - complete and total failure. Extremely disappointing. Right now it’s pretty much attack dragon -> get feared out of place -> run back and continue spamming. -Finally got into Orr, 70-75 zone anyways. Extremely disappointing. What I thought/hoped would be a PvE battleground type experience (PvE WvW) is actually in fact just Zerg Merry-Go-Round. Hop on the train, ride along the zerg from point A to B to C back to A again. -Halloween event has thus far been extremely disappointing. Candy corn? Who cares, sell it all in TP. Costumes? Don't care. Costume brawl? Not even fun - randomly kicking around LA by Mystic Forge. Couldn't figure out how to make the damn scanner work / figure it out - not going to cheat and google it. Pointless. -WvW I have very little interest in. So many complaints of zergs, bugs/broken, lack of any real reason to care, and long wait times. -sPvP I have very little interest in. Rewards / prestige don't match input. I get a lot of fun out of progression in PvP like in CoD or BF3 or Halo games, haven't found any reason to care about winning/losing in sPvP yet. -Lost pretty much all interest in crafting, lost all interest in zone completion and grinding Hearts. -I've run a handful of story mode and explorable mode dungeons. Where are the rewards? Where is the loot? Couple of shitty blues? 10-15 minute corpse hopping bosses? There is no skill/strategy there. And what's it all for, some cool looking cosmetic rewards (and the 10% stat bonus of Exotics?) -Personal story is a bit of a miss. These "epic" events in the Vigil line are anything but. Apparently a "massive undead siege of Orrians" is 10-15 mobs. The scale and sense of epicness is just pathetic. Limitation of the MMO genre I suppose. I still get some fun out of toying around with other classes (like right now a Mesmer) but I know if I play for too long I'm going to hit that wall and get bored again in like an hour. Where's the "dynamic" in the dynamic events? Where's the point of sPvP / WvW? I get a much better sense of achievement playing Halo or back in UO Factions where taking control of a city/town actually felt like it mattered. Where is the feeling of accomplishment for doing a great job in a run? It's made me realize I really do miss the Trinity - I hate to say it, but I do. I've always been a Tank/Healer - and I've always strived to be a damn good one too. That was my main feeling of accomplishment beyond just the gear rewards and stat progression - knowing I was good at my job. Now don't get me wrong - GW2 does some things absolutely great. 1. The combat is fun and exciting, for a while, but the limited skills per Weapon contibutes to getting bored fast. Cooldowns are too long, spend too much time auto-attacking and waiting for cooldowns or being forced to switch to your second set. I've also grown frustrated for how weak I feel. The pace of combat was so much better at earlier levels. I had this problem MAJOR bad with TOR - fights just take too long for no reason. It doesn't make me feel like a "hero" when I can't cut through swaths of baddies with ease. Sure, I like having elite/champion/veteran mobs that take a bit of effort to kill. That's fun. But I don't like feeling like I'm hitting with a wet noodle against normal mobs. TOR made this mistake BIG time, and the only MMO where I never felt this way - is WoW. And yes, I've tried about 6 different trait combinations, weapon combos, etc. On my Guardian at level 77/78 using level 75 Rare weapons, even with the supposed "OP" Greatsword and then Sword/Torch combo. Yes I'm fully Runed 6/6 set w/ Weapon runes, all gear is 75+ blue/green/rare. The utility skills feel weak. Great for situational help, but I have yet to press ANY button in any class at any level in GW2 where I felt like "Wow, I love this ability it is so freaking cool and awesome." 2. Quality of life features like "Send to Collections" is great. Trading Post from anywhere is superb. No competition for harvesting nodes is splendid. Overflow servers is freak'n brilliant. Dye system and "dye anything anywhere" is amazing. Not quite as great as it'd be with an appearance tab, but the Dye system is awesome. 3. No kill stealing, everyone gets loot, never a bad idea to help another player, cross-profession combos with anyone outside of grouping etc. is awesome and a huge, huge step forward in PvE. I guess, as sad as it is at the end of the day... I need the carrot. The gameplay is just not sufficiently fun enough to keep me interested without the carrot to chase. I need the Trinity, I need to have a role I am good at. I think I'm about done with the MMORPG genre to be honest. I have a feeling I am never going to find a single game I am going to play for months and years on end without breaks. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just like the rest. I will probably end up like the rest bouncing from game to game, new release to new release like an addict chasing the next fix. The dream of "the game to stick with" is gone for me. I've hit MMORPG rock bottom. This is BadSpock, signing off...
Ditto. I'm continuing to play because there's nothing else out there for me. I'm NOT going back to SWTOR. I don't relish the idea of playing WoW again. I've pretty much played Eve every possible way. As you said, thank god for the B2P business model. I can log on as much or as little as I want. Or I can take 6 months off and come back.
What my friends and I are the MOST disappointed by was how quickly the shine wore off. I played SWTOR for a good 4-6 months before I started having the 'eff this crap' feeling. We're just hitting the 2mo mark for GW2 (early release) and we've been rather frustrated for several weeks now.
Oh, and for all the wonderful listening and general cooperative relationship between ANet and the community in the past (GW1, the GW2 betas) once the game went live, they executed a series of PR moves that were relationship kryptonite. I'm beginning to develop a chronic urge to punch Jon Peters in the face and I *KNOW* I'm not alone.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Torvaldr I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
Shouldn't the focus be more on how it affects the actual game? And not whether or not you have a personal bias against such a system?
I've seen a lot of cashshops done wrong, and I do think they need to be watched closely, but I've also seen cashshops done right. It is a bit of a tightrope, but if it doesn't negatively impact the game, shouldn't that be a good thing?
Don't mean to jump in, but I do have a hard time understanding the mindset of wanting to pay more for a game, just to avoid having a cashshop, if the cashshop doesn't really affect the game in any way.
Originally posted by BadSpock Couldn't figure out how to make the damn scanner work / figure it out - not going to cheat and google it. Pointless. -I've run a handful of story mode and explorable mode dungeons. Where are the rewards? Where is the loot? Couple of shitty blues? 10-15 minute corpse hopping bosses? There is no skill/strategy there. And what's it all for, some cool looking cosmetic rewards (and the 10% stat bonus of Exotics?)
It uses candy corn.
The guy tells you to use it by him.
If you are rezz corpsing bosses for 15 minutes, no I guess there is no strategy involved. When you use strategy you finish paths without having to waypoint.
But someone that has not even 1 level 80 will have problems with figuring strategy.
Why do you do it? To be a badass that finishes dungeons in half hour without dying, Just because the game let you finish dungeons by sheer pocket size it doesn't mean you are doing it the right way.
Currently playing: GW2Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I have to unfortunately agree. Said better than my comments a few weeks back. GW2 is a phenomenal game and hopefully introduced some basic changes that all MMOs going forward will adopt. I will say GW2 inadvertently introduced me to EQ and I've been having a blast. Rain of Fear - Nov 28th. Cant wait.
guys are really missing out..oh well
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Torvaldr I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
I just think that MMORPGs should be about going out and getting what you want. You want something, go get it, buy it, trade it, group for it save for it, what ever. Rewards in MMOs should come from earning them. I think being able to buy anything from a cash shop undermines progression.
In answer to the OP:
Well said and I agree with most of it. The carrot on the stick is where I don't agree when it comes to gear. Give me a crafted economy / player shops / housing / and that would be enough for me. I miss worlds to live in not the action combat games we have today.
Similar reviews and impressions have been posted by others for months. Of course they were all "reported" for trolling and such. Maybe next time people will actually listen to other's opinions instead of reporting them because of some perceived "attack" on their beloved game.
And to Spock...come back to WoW. The expansion is fun. At the very minimum, you can try the new Pandarian starting zone for free on a trial account...
When I wake up, the real nightmare begins
Originally posted by Thillian Originally posted by aesperus So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant. Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective. I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark. (correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
By a year. You're correct. However, considering it's been ~ a decade for both, I really don't think that extra year really matters much for this discussion.
As for dollar figures, it's really hard to make such an argument without some actual numbers. If we go off the few games where we have decent ballparks, the figures are all over the place. SWTOR is one of the most expensive games ever made, though barely holds Eve's numbers. Whereas WOW spent less than SWTOR on it's initial launch, but has over 9x the subs of both those games. Furthermore, Aion didn't spend as much as either WOW or SWTOR, yet still has a couple mil subs. Runescape, not a huge budget MMO, yet still does surprisingly well. Many of the F2P games have also been very popular.
But I digress. While I'm not going to sit here and pretend that ad revenue doesn't correlate to sales, I will say that there is no data (that I've seen) to suggest that this is the only factor. This whole argument is not only getting away from the OT, but it is also distracting from the original point, which is that there isn't any realistic reason to believe that recreating games from 15 years ago will yield much better results this time around.
It's great to want to play your old favorites, but remakes don't tend to do as well as hoped.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Torvaldr I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
Ok, I'll try and be clearer with my questioning. Why are the silly gloves and goggles in the GW cash shop such a deal breaker whereas the existing micro-transaction stuff in RIFT gets a pass because you don't have a choice and must live with it? I don't have a choice in either game and live with it in both.
All the complaints, by those who once again jump at the chance to poke at the game, are all valid. But they should understand also that their games are really subject to very similar sorts of criticisms. Even WoW is subject to them. It's just that with its success it can ignore them for now.
The real problem I have is with the OP. And I don't mean this personally, but more with that group of people that so vehemently pumped the hype and forum zerged any criticism that could have been used to improve the quality of the game. So instead of having quality discussions we had forum pvp and fostered unrealistic expectations about the game. Then to have any of them do a reverse back stab not only removes any last shred of credibility they might have had but is just bad community behavior period.
Not only that, but we're seeing the next cycle of this hype crap with EQN, TESO, and RIFT:Storm Legion, among others. It's a bad cycle that we should break.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I just think that MMORPGs should be about going out and getting what you want. You want something, go get it, buy it, trade it, group for it save for it, what ever. Rewards in MMOs should come from earning them. I think being able to buy anything from a cash shop undermines progression.
Ah.. from that perspective, it make a lot of sense.I don't really focus on progression as much. Instead I try and focus more on customization (when games allow me to do this).
[quote]Originally posted by Gorilla[bI still think its a pretty remarkable game that has some issues rather than a lacklustre game that has some good bits.[/b][/quote]Very well put. Such a huge difference in the type of game just from those two descriptions.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Not only that, but we're seeing the next cycle of this hype crap with EQN, TESO, and RIFT:Storm Legion, among others. It's a bad cycle that we should break.
I've really got to agree with this ^
When it comes to GW2, the hype was nearly 100% player driven. Anet did release some promotional stuff, but they really only had a few Ads, and most of them honestly sucked.
What I find the most frustrating, is even now, much of the criticism of GW2 comes down to personal preference or bias. At least on this site, there are very few legitimate discussions that need to be had. I haven't seen much talking about the problems w/ WvW atm. Up until very recently, I haven't seen many discussions on how some of the dragon fights could be better.
It's easy to hype up games and then dump on them. However that doesn't help anyone. What I'd like to see happening more on this site are actual discussions about the mechanics of some of these games. What some of the improvements are, and what are some areas that can be improved upon. I'm not holding my breath though.
Originally posted by Cherise You expressed much of how I felt recently with GW2, Spock. But I did go in not expecting any longevity, so I'm not leaving with any disappointment. I had some fun and felt it was worth the money spent. I felt the same way you did about feeling weaker as I got higher level, especially in the 70+ areas. I forced myself to reach 80, but didn't enjoy a moment of the final stretch, especially not being able to take two steps without being attacked in Orr. And once I dinged, I just stopped logging in. A lot of charm in the world, and I appreciate the love ANet poured into the game. But as others have said, we each enjoy different game styles and I expect GW2 to continue to do well even though it wasn't for me. So back to my old MMO.
I feel the same.
I got 3 or so weeks out of GW2, which is about what I thought I would get. I'm not a themepark player anyway, but from the build up the game was getting here and elsewhere, the only place for people's impression to go was down.
The cycle repeats itself with each new game too. You see this Highlander mentality often, where everything but game X or Y has failed as an MMO, where each new MMO darling is the pinnacle of one's gaming experience, where each past game was a trap, a gimmick, a ruse (or the converse).
A bit of equanimity goes a long way.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by xAPOCx sorry dont agree with you at all.
That's fine. May I ask, what recent game do you consider to be a good example of a game that is Trinity & gear based that hasn't gotten stale as a result?
EvE, has both a trinity and gear progression. However you can switch role by changing your ship build, and whilst you can use more gear as you progress everything still has a role.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by BadSpock Hopefully when I come back to life I get to bang Robin Curtis too.
Whoa what wait? Not to say there is anyting wrong with this particular choice, but if you are going for the whole in caracter role play gig, WTF stop there, if you are gonna dream big go for Jolene Blalock
Originally posted by Vannor I burnt out in the same way. It was so sweet until you hit the bitter aftertaste. It's obvious why this game doesn't have a sub, and that's because hardly anyone would keep playing it past the leveling experience. The strong launch will keep it floating for awhile yet but unless they churn out an expansion quickly those numbers are going to take a serious hit. I thought I was done with MMOs after GW2. Played a lot of single player and co-op games for a bit. Then I started looking into Rift's expansion and decided to give it a try again since good things are on the way soon. I was pretty shocked though, playing Rift again was like a breath of fresh air after burning out on GW2. Have a year sub with Rift now (because the year deal with free expansion was good value compared to the alternative way of paying). I'm not suggesting you play Rift .. I'm not trying to fanboi it to death. What I'm saying is that you don't know what you got until it's gone. While GW2 did some things well, it totally ruins the fundamentals that made MMORPG's addictive. It ruins the reason we love the genre in the first place. Give another MMO a try.. I don't even consider GW2 in the same genre as games like WoW, LOTRO, Rift, etc. GW2 is in a new genre called something like MMO-Lite.
This is a pretty good post.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Torvaldr I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
You ask me about paying a sub fee to Rift. then you bring in GW2's Cash Shop. Yet GW2 has no Sub. The 2 games have different revenue models. Why do I care what's in GW2's Cash Shop? I'm talking about paying a sub for Rift and the decision I made about my ongoing expense regarding Rift. (Not an issue in GW2) 2 games with 2 different revenue models and 2 different standards. The issue I have in GW2's cash shop isn't about boxing gloves and sunglasses, For me, it's about gems and the overall effect it's had on the game's economy. Something I wasn't 100% sure would happen until after. But since the 2 games also have a different kind of progression, My issue with progression applies to Rift, not GW2. .