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New Poll - MMO Combat preference

UproarUproar Canton, MIPosts: 520Member Uncommon

Poll  - MMO Combat: Fast Paced and Action Packed or Traditional?

 
Bugs me (a lot) when polls allow too few options or frankly (in this case it's both) biased to get the result someone wants.
 
"Fast Paced and Action Packed" or "Traditional"
 
Not only is this phrasing BAD.  Like someone might really declare "I'll take no action & boring mode please!" -- yeah right I am surprised anyone voted for Traditional here, but can only guess they did so for wide diversity of reasons as I would bet nearly every one that did pick that option had a different meaning in mind.  Or rather maybe hated "Fast paced" enough to run the other way regardless of meaning.
 
Question needs to consider length of combat (from a second or few to 10s of seconds to a minute), style of combat (1-1 vs. wading through foes vs. a squad at a time), complexity of actions (few options, keyboard vs. mouse, tons of options), and pace (mad smash -- instants, reactionaries, positionals, etc vs. steady no twitch required to even turned-base).
 
Here's the poll as it should be (or at least more telling -- it's not perfect),
 
 

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Comments

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Uproar

    Poll  - MMO Combat: Fast Paced and Action Packed or Traditional?

     
    Bugs me (a lot) when polls allow too few options or frankly (in this case it's both) biased to get the result someone wants.
     
    "Fast Paced and Action Packed" or "Traditional"
     
    Not only is this phrasing BAD.  Like someone might really declare "I'll take no action & boring mode please!" -- yeah right I am surprised anyone voted for Traditional here, but can only guess they did so for wide diversity of reasons as I would bet nearly every one that did pick that option had a different meaning in mind.  Or rather maybe hated "Fast paced" enough to run the other way regardless of meaning.
     
    Question needs to consider length of combat (from a second or few to 10s of seconds to a minute), style of combat (1-1 vs. wading through foes vs. a squad at a time), complexity of actions (few options, keyboard vs. mouse, tons of options), and pace (mad smash -- instants, reactionaries, positionals, etc vs. steady no twitch required to even turned-base).
     
    Here's the poll as it should be (or at least more telling -- it's not perfect),
     
     

    It's impossible to poll this correctly to be honest. There are simply way to many variables to consider. Like in a PvP focused game I prefer combat that requires both action and reaction, in a solo PvE situation I prefer more action on trash and only want action and reaction on mini boss or boss type mobs. I like hard content that requires grouping but I also like my solo content. Some games I prefer turn based combat lol... 

     

    It depends on the game, the setting, what else it offers, who I'm playing with, what mood I'm in, and so many other factors it would take a dissetation to properly answer your question lol!

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    Thats impossible for me because i enjoy different types of combat from many different mmos. I guess you could say my favorite type of combat is the kind that fits with its particular game. My favorite game combat in general is virtua fighter but thats not possible yet in an mmo setting

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member

    Agree with preceeding respondants.

     

    As a squishy cleric it might be more advantageous to take on mobs individually in many cases; therefore, I'd want a skill that allows me to lure singles.

    As a heavy armor user, perhaps I can aggro and fight multiple mobs at once.

    Aside from class capabilities, I find it a lot more interesting when mobs exhibit varying tendancies; for instance, some aggro in groups, while others attack singly, and others run away.

     

    This was one of the things I thought was really well done with Perfect World (despite all its other faults). Mobs are remarkably varied, and as a squishy class player you really needed to have your wits about you to prevail, particularly with ranged mobs that would retreat into a group of other ranged mobs. Stalking, kiting, luring, stacking a heal or two, and wise placement before attack were generally important and kept even repetitive quests interesting.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Two of my favorite games on this site are Wizard101 and Wakfu, and both are turn-based system. I'd be perfectly happy if I never had to look at another hotbar-based ability spamfest again.

    <3

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    I die a little inside when I see how the miss-use of the word "twitch" has caught on so. Even in FPS games the use of the twitch reflex is quite rare - majority of situations are still a matter of hand-eye coordination, knowledge and tactics.

    My own preference is to have more action-oriented combat, but only because it is still quite rare and variety is good. I don't mind the regular tab-targetting as long as its spiced-up a bit. Gimmicks don't count.

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone
    • friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee
    Again, just because I think it would create a drastically different metagame and playstyle.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I die a little inside when I see how the miss-use of the word "twitch" has caught on so. Even in FPS games the use of the twitch reflex is quite rare - majority of situations are still a matter of hand-eye coordination, knowledge and tactics.My own preference is to have more action-oriented combat, but only because it is still quite rare and variety is good. I don't mind the regular tab-targetting as long as its spiced-up a bit. Gimmicks don't count.I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game: projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit body blocking - no walking through anyone friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee Again, just because I think it would create a drastically different metagame and playstyle.

    I agree with all those bullet points. Friendly fire alone would add much more strategy to pvp.

  • alancodealancode El Mirage, AZPosts: 131Member
    I hope no one here really thinks GW2 is twitch...Its the same as every other MMO, with an occasional roll. 

    (-_-)

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone
    • friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee

    Realism? Never gonna happen G.I.

     

    Not when three generations of game players expect any successful game will let them spit thunder and shoot fire out their asses.

     

    It's the same weak-kneed mentality that wants space for hundreds of items in personal inventory; characters that never get tired, hungry, or thirsty; and death that has no consequences.

     

    Realism will never give way to instant gratification; not that it couldn't or shouldn't, but because most players want only a themepark, with all the cottoncandy, corndogs, and fried twinkies they can carry.

  • LethalJaxxLethalJaxx NijmegenPosts: 105Member
    To me a major thing is a strong tactical component. That's what makes combat involved.  Turn based, or fast paced real time, or anything in between can be equally entertaining, as long as the implementation is done well.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Now our comuters and internet are up to it, first person and real time.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Thats impossible for me because i enjoy different types of combat from many different mmos. I guess you could say my favorite type of combat is the kind that fits with its particular game. My favorite game combat in general is virtua fighter but thats not possible yet in an mmo setting

    I played Virtua Fighter in arcades and on the Sega 32X in Tokyo, and Vendetta Online comes pretty damn well close to capturing that feeling.  It's really all about the physics.

    /vet rant

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon

    Christ... that was a ton of options lol. I like croud control. Used to use it a ton in Eq2 and vinilla wow. 

     

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Simphanatic
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone
    • friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee

    Realism? Never gonna happen G.I.

     

    Not when three generations of game players expect any successful game will let them spit thunder and shoot fire out their asses.

     

    It's the same weak-kneed mentality that wants space for hundreds of items in personal inventory; characters that never get tired, hungry, or thirsty; and death that has no consequences.

     

    Realism will never give way to instant gratification; not that it couldn't or shouldn't, but because most players want only a themepark, with all the cottoncandy, corndogs, and fried twinkies they can carry.

    Not going for realism, just for a variety in metagames. It only happens to be in the direction of realism. Getting hungry, tired, thisty or realistic recovery from wounds would only be a major nuisance in a game (depending ofc) with little to no additional gameplay value. Just like character aging wouldn't have any value.

    First and foremost, people want good games. Realism rarely makes a good game. But I sense my explanations are falling on deaf ears since you used the term "instant gratification".

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Praetalus

    Christ... that was a ton of options lol. I like croud control. Used to use it a ton in Eq2 and vinilla wow.

    Who doesn't love crowd control? Except I don't like the type of cop out crowd control like putting characters to sleep or "mesmerising" them. Things like body blocking, knock back, raising magical walls and the like is cc at its best imo. Something devastatingly effective if the used right - not these lame "I win"-buttons.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I die a little inside when I see how the miss-use of the word "twitch" has caught on so. Even in FPS games the use of the twitch reflex is quite rare - majority of situations are still a matter of hand-eye coordination, knowledge and tactics.

    My own preference is to have more action-oriented combat, but only because it is still quite rare and variety is good. I don't mind the regular tab-targetting as long as its spiced-up a bit. Gimmicks don't count.

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone
    • friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee
    Again, just because I think it would create a drastically different metagame and playstyle.

    You get most of them in DF. Be nice if other companies ran with them, tweaked, polished and improved upon them.

     

    The lack of friendly fire is something I find particularly bad in any team orientated game to be honest. Allowing people to blast rockets, fireballs, whatever into the middle of their own team is just utterly ridiculous.

     

    Having to pick and choose targets, having ranged team members have to work more in tandem with close combat team members. All the additional tactics it offers.

     

    Can't say I am a fan of TAB target unless the game is extremely strategy centric with less emphasis on speed of reaction or if it is a game which makes little to no sense having manual aiming (i.e. you are a massive capital ship or something).

     

    I also agree with your later posts sentiment with regards to CC. Raising barriets, body blocking et al is cool. Fetch! type pull mechanics and dizzy KD, perma stun cycles are not.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Praetalus

    Christ... that was a ton of options lol. I like croud control. Used to use it a ton in Eq2 and vinilla wow. 

     

     

    I too like crowd control splitting pulls.  Individual mobs need to be stronger and there should be some preparation in pulls.

     

    I've enjoyed all types of combat in MMO's I don't care for WoW solo combat (no dodging) and FPS games are not my favorite.  I still enjoy the strategy and slowness of EQ1 up to the aim based stuff that isn't necessarily FPS.  I think there is room for all different types of combat I just think individual mobs should be stronger in general and pulling two or three is not gonna be a faceroll.

    Strategy should be more important than super speedy imo along with situational awareness.

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    First and foremost, people want good games. Realism rarely makes a good game. But I sense my explanations are falling on deaf ears since you used the term "instant gratification".

    Oh, fudge! And here I was laboring under the misguided notion that MMORPGs were supposed to have been a departure from Pong, Asteroids, and Pacman.

     

    But then, again, you and many others really want to play MMOGs, not MMORPGs.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I die a little inside when I see how the miss-use of the word "twitch" has caught on so. Even in FPS games the use of the twitch reflex is quite rare - majority of situations are still a matter of hand-eye coordination, knowledge and tactics.

    [...]

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone
    • friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee
    Again, just because I think it would create a drastically different metagame and playstyle.

    I identify completely with this post, however these bullets are the very reason I've found so much depth in Vendetta's combat.  These features are already there, and have been since I started playing in 2003.  In fact, the longer I stick with Vendetta, the more depth I find in it's relatively simple combat model, simply because it is true to some basic physical principles:

    -projectile blocking: yes, you can hit a target that has not been selected, hit an unintended target or a friendly ship

    -body blocking: yes, this is a major pet peeve of mine, and one of the reasons I got turned off from WoW.  One physical body that has volume should not be allowed to pass through another, virtual or no.

    -friendly fire: this is a consideration when in a furball or a skirmish, and adds to the complexity of group tactics

    When I find posts from people wishing for these features among MMOs I have to speak out, because they do exist.  They just are not mainstream.

    ---------------------------------

    Another thing I wanted to talk about was flare recovery.  Recovery is a major part of the strategy in fighting games.  Anyone who has played Virtua Fighter or Tekken should know what I am talking about.  This mechanic is present in Vendetta because certain weapons carry concussive force which has the ability to displace the target or cause it to spin around.  The ship's mass and moment of inertia affect which recovery strategy is the best to take.  It's almost like snowboarding; when you spin, you have to know how to land, how to come out of it, etc.  The same feeling goes with VO.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Thats impossible for me because i enjoy different types of combat from many different mmos. I guess you could say my favorite type of combat is the kind that fits with its particular game. My favorite game combat in general is virtua fighter but thats not possible yet in an mmo setting

    Same here. I enjoy EVE combat, UO combat and GW2 combat. for me, it's all about what works best for the game.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Psy410Psy410 DesamparadosPosts: 70Member

    Combat should be dramas. I couldnt have said it better.

    I find turn based combat boring and very anticlimatic, but also the complete opposite of turn based combat, killing several enemies in seconds, is even more pointless. Both of these options only seem to want to skip the actual fight. Where is the struggle, the persecution, the drama?

    Why does combat always mean killing? Should it really be that easy?

    I would like to face an enemy that I dont want to kill and also have the option of being merciful or maybe even capturing them and selling them as slaves or offering them as sacrifice to some god (Imagine a bunch of prisioners used as bait for a nasty creature, buying you enough time to set an ambush... that is strategic COMBAT), there are so many things that come to one's mind. I guess it is easier to just work on the looks of a game avoiding the real combat by turning it into a couple of flashy dance moves or a chess board... that is of course if they dont just relay in a basic variety of unresponsive hit animations that usually symbolize the combat in many games.

     

    image
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    You forgot to add a choice to just see the results ...
  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member

    Crushing many mobs, tons of mobs AoE(Diablo syle action + MMO), it is the best kind of action for a MMO for me. Because of this, I'm waiting for Blade & Soul and these two MMOs:

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COB--bE_r-E

    ^^

  • Psy410Psy410 DesamparadosPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by Prenho

    Crushing many mobs, tons of mobs AoE(Diablo syle action + MMO), it is the best kind of action for a MMO for me. Because of this, I'm waiting for Blade & Soul and these two MMOs:

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COB--bE_r-E

    ^^

    That first game's ''combat'' style reminds me of the windshield wipers of a car squashing some bugs, reaaally fun stuff.

    image
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I die a little inside when I see how the miss-use of the word "twitch" has caught on so. Even in FPS games the use of the twitch reflex is quite rare - majority of situations are still a matter of hand-eye coordination, knowledge and tactics.

     

    My own preference is to have more action-oriented combat, but only because it is still quite rare and variety is good. I don't mind the regular tab-targetting as long as its spiced-up a bit. Gimmicks don't count.

    I would also like to see combat with all of the following combined in the same game:

    • projectile blocking - projectiles hit whatever is in the way, whether it was an ally or enemy you didn't mean to hit
    • body blocking - no walking through anyone friendly fire - no fireballs or shooting into melee
    Again, just because I think it would create a drastically different metagame and playstyle.

     

    I agree with all those bullet points. Friendly fire alone would add much more strategy to pvp.

    ... and oh so much whining.  I would still like to see it though.

    Imagine the first time there is a traitor in a group and he turns in the middle of a fight.  The forums will light up like the fourth of July.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Uproar

    Poll  - MMO Combat: Fast Paced and Action Packed or Traditional?

     
    Bugs me (a lot) when polls allow too few options or frankly (in this case it's both) biased to get the result someone wants.
     
    "Fast Paced and Action Packed" or "Traditional"
     
    Not only is this phrasing BAD.  Like someone might really declare "I'll take no action & boring mode please!" -- yeah right I am surprised anyone voted for Traditional here, but can only guess they did so for wide diversity of reasons as I would bet nearly every one that did pick that option had a different meaning in mind.  Or rather maybe hated "Fast paced" enough to run the other way regardless of meaning.
     
    Question needs to consider length of combat (from a second or few to 10s of seconds to a minute), style of combat (1-1 vs. wading through foes vs. a squad at a time), complexity of actions (few options, keyboard vs. mouse, tons of options), and pace (mad smash -- instants, reactionaries, positionals, etc vs. steady no twitch required to even turned-base).
     
    Here's the poll as it should be (or at least more telling -- it's not perfect),
     
     

    It's impossible to poll this correctly to be honest. There are simply way to many variables to consider.

    The poll is just difficult. Each one makes sense depending on the circumstances.

    I love the solo bam fights in Tera with my lancer. Those are long fights and they allow me to dodge or move which I love even more. Then again, if I had multiple mobs bearing down on me, each one alone being very easy but the group being difficult, I would love that fast paced "killing" as well.

     

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