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Easy has to go...who asked for easy ? ( Poll )

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  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

    They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

     

    You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill.  I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

    It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

    Do you really believe what are you writing? 

    Besides it is YOU who wrote about super hardcore games.   Who want super hardcore?   Majority of posters here seem to want more difficult and not impossibly difficult.  

    You're either on purpose or not try to create some kind of dichotomy where there are only 'normal players' and 'super hardcore no-life elitists that want content that will be beatable only by 0,5 % of players'.

    Wrong.

    I want little bit more challange, especially in open world, but first of all I just don't want everything given to me on a silver platter (quest gps) and game that is revolved around very fast levelling and lobby-like insatnce gridning at so called 'end-game'.

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    While you do they those who want a return to super hardcore, most of us just don't want to see gaming becoming more easymode every year.
  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member

    So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).

    I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,964Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lienhart

    So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).

    I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.

    Strange you should bring up working out and having anything to do with a video game being hard. I see no connection what's so ever !............Anyway, I'm the OP and I had started this topic about mmos being too easy.

    So lets talk about working out OK ?......I have been active in doing Kung Fu for the past 20 years !!!!, I still work out close to every single day for two hours, on week ends three and four until I can't walk. Ive had my nose busted several times, and in the first few years had constant black eyes, and fat lips. I work out with sabers, swards sticks ,knifes, spears, and open hand. I am not only a black belt but I know the entire Hungar style, and a lot of Northern Long Fist, monkey and Mantas.

    Why am I typing all this. Because I work out five times harder than you and I don't care who you are !!!!....I have thousands of post here and could not even think about bringing up the topic of working out here on mmorpg.com

    And I still think Easy has nothing to do with mmos. Please reply what playing video games have to do with working out, and give details !!!!

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member
    They made it all easy, and millions of gamers who wouldnt normally be interested in anything RPG showed up and are staying.  Oh and these players hate your traditional RPG. Not so much the look and feel of your old RPG but more the mechanics.  This is why games like GW2 try to fix what is wrong with those old generation mmorpgs that we all sorely miss (at least us RPG fans do)
  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Strange you should bring up working out and having anything to do with a video game being hard. I see no connection what's so ever !............Anyway, I'm the OP and I had started this topic about mmos being too easy.

    Amen.

    I did my best to laugh off his comments with my "Mitt" response, whereas I actually found it more than a little stinging.

    I've played online games since my early teens, but I never really got serious about them until I had my accident. I don't work, though I certainly wish I could. I don't workout, though I wish I could, and that's a particularly bitter part of my existence. My  bachelor's degree was funded principally by a track and cross country scholorship, and I countinued to run 10Ks and Marathons competitively during grad school. Nothing in this mortal life gave me greater pleasure than early morning training runs. RPGs are a by proxy way of doing things that I can no longer do in real life, but "challenge" isn't one of the things at the top of my list when I start a new MMORPG, but I will revisit that later. What I do look for are:

    • Immersive game world
    • Compelling storyline and lore
    • Meaningful quests or missions
    • Substantive, vital in-game economy
    • Honorable player community
    Honestly, I've never been particularly satisfied with any MMO, with respect to these criteria. But I've an imaginative soul and I can usually contrive my own unique story, with written biographies, and statements of personality that help greatly in making even shallow games more immersive and enjoyable.
     
    Do I wish some games were more difficult?
     
    Well, that's a matter of perspective. My first MMORPG was Perfect World, where my most favorite class was the Cleric. Even after I left the FFA PvP server, I had a very hard time with my cleric until I learned to play to her strengths and the importance of varied tactics relative to different mobs and bosses. In five years, I leveled five clerics to somewhere between level 90 and 102. And, yeah, playing a cleric became so easy that I could go from start to cap without ever dying.
     
    Well, that's silly, isn't it? Why play a class repeatedly when it's obviously become so simple?
     
    With each succeeding cleric I always felt that I was getting better and my overriding goal became being the game's best cleric. Now, it's highly arguable whether I actually achieved that goal, but I know that I was soloing bosses that were widely considered impossible for a cleric and I was constantly sought as a healer in squads. So, in a way, my pursuit of excellence and drive to push the envelope contrived ever-increasing challenges and kept the game interesting for me a lot longer than it otherwise would have.
     
    I'm not sure what the lesson is here, but maybe it's that we shouldn't obligate developers to spoon feed us everything. Perhaps it would be more practical to expect that developers provide only the platform (means and opportunity) and that motive should stay firmly in the hands of players. When I was little, my dad built my brothers and me a treehouse. He didn't give us a list of things to do with it. So, sans any instruction manual we made up our own games and, by God, it was fun. I guess I'm stuck waiting for a developer to build me a treehouse.
     
    I'm sorry this wrote a little long, and I didn't intend for it to sound preachy.
  • bamdorfbamdorf Chatham, NJPosts: 150Member

    Generally I want a game where I feel some level of challenge, have to figure some things out, but I do not want have to pull my hair out and have pulse pounding drama at every turn.    I want to relax and be able to work at things.     I don't want to feel that a Sword of Damocles is suspended over my head and the next step I take will be my doom.   And that people will curse my name because I screwed up.

    A huge number of people demanded changes in EQ1, some were not challenges exactly but more like useless frustrations, but there was enough momentum to tone the game down a bit.    And that is exactly what happened with WoW, and it worked.   WoW went large because people wanted it and asked for it.   It seems to me that the goal ought to be to offer people the freedom to adapt their approach and playstyle to the game, but still have it somewhat balanced while giving people doing really hard stuff some kind of meanful reward.  And most of all some reason to build communities.    It's not easy.   WoW is the closest so far, imo.

    Right now I have decided to go back and play Baldur's Gate 1 again.    8$ from Amazon LOL.  Been a long time and I have forgotten a lot of it.    BG has some challenges in it (especially if you don't use a walk through), but one can play along at it quite a bit without feeling that you are at the edge of doom.  Still,  It is often a relief to get back to a safe area...that is, mostly safe, since assasins can hit you anywhere.    But BG  has the big advantage over MMOs  that you can save, then experiment.     You can take your time.   

     

     

    ---------------------------
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    Light-foot lads...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

    Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

    Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

     

    Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

    I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

    Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

    Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

    Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

    What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

    Diablo 3 MP10 .. got one shotted by normal mobs in Act 3. That was like a few days ago.

    I also did a less challenging thing .. do the inferno machine with 3 others on MP5. Hard enough that we wiped. One guy (Barb tank) kite and kept one boss occupied.

    3 of us are on the second boss. We have to dodge fireballs, time slow zones, i try to put up my hydra, and try to position well. We died MANY times, and each time we try to revive our teammates.

    It was a good fight. Oh, and the ring component dropped for me.

    THAT is challenging enough to have fun.

     

     

     

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

    Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

    What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

    Some raid boss in VG called... Rikitin? or something similar. Yes, was a while ago, hehe.

    More recently, soloing battleships and groups of 40+ fighters on Freelancer, Shattered Worlds mod. Well, the challenging part was learning how to do those fights solo, then it was just a matter of patience and time... and lots of dodging.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    If the game is too easy for me, I personally make it challenging. You know that broken class that nobody plays because it doesn't work like it "should"? How about that one build that no one ever does because it's not worth it in "end-game"? I play it. Yes, it can be frustrating, but ultimately makes the game harder than other players make it out to be. If the game is too easy, simply find a way to make it more challenging. Pick that wierd monk character that no one ever picks. Make that warmage that is broken and build it however you see fit. It's actually kind of fun making a game harder than it should be without making the game unplayable. Who knows, you may just find yourself in a new easy character that nobody even tried.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,964Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rossboss
    If the game is too easy for me, I personally make it challenging. You know that broken class that nobody plays because it doesn't work like it "should"? How about that one build that no one ever does because it's not worth it in "end-game"? I play it. Yes, it can be frustrating, but ultimately makes the game harder than other players make it out to be. If the game is too easy, simply find a way to make it more challenging. Pick that wierd monk character that no one ever picks. Make that warmage that is broken and build it however you see fit. It's actually kind of fun making a game harder than it should be without making the game unplayable. Who knows, you may just find yourself in a new easy character that nobody even tried.

    Sure we could make the game harder.  In fact I'll bet most of us already do this.


    GuildWars 2 - I play my Necro five levels higher, sometimes I die a lot.  But if it happens too often I'll re-check my specs, weapons and armor.  Doing this I'll get upgrade equipment higher than I should and have to bank it until I become that level.

    Still this does not solve the problem.  If a game is too easy players don't group and work together...Self making a game harder is solo stuff and we already have a lot of that.

     

    HAY.....Look at it this way, If I already play five levels higher and play with three others, we would have to play 10 levels or hjgher or more !!!!......This easy stuff is getting way out of hand.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,237Member Uncommon

    WoW easy?

    I actually find WoW rather difficult. There really isn't much to do other than fight, fight, fight and fight some more.  Totally unrelaxing.  No way to destress.  Just endless combat until you get burned out.  It's a test of will just to keep doing the repetitive thing.

    The games of the post-WoW era are the most hardcore I've ever seen, if hardcore can be defined as putting in serious hours.  And they aren't even fun hours or meaningful ones.

    When it launched, up until the November 15, 2005 redesign, Star Wars Galaxies was the only MMO where I could log in, sit in the starport for an hour, and never feel like I was wasting my time.  It was easy to have fun in that game.

    WoW?  Even the "fun" things aren't very fun.

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  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Lol, heart pumping video games...no game or MMO has ever made my heart pump faster than normal. It's just a video game!

    image
  • RickRossTheBossRickRossTheBoss Boss Town, NYPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by stux

    Macroing and third party programs made it the norm.

     

    I remember Asheron's Call was awesome.  It was a grind to level in the game.  It was hard to find quest locations and items you wanted.  But you know it was fun like that imo.

     

     Then people starting macro and a few people reached cap fast then some more then word got out that a hard full of people were jus afk macroing for xp.

     

    Then decal and third party programs became the norm with everyone afk macroing, botting, etc. and game fell apart for those didn't do.

     

    There is no way of making a hard core old school grind game when third party programs and afk macroing  take over the old school players can't keep up without it get tired and leave.

     

    The same thing happened in Darkfall.  So, many people macroing or glitched to max out characters then stopped the people who weren't.  A lot of people left some stayed and joined the macroes.  A percentage ground through it but a lot left due to it.  Eventually the developed greatly lower the character grind and it will probably help the games population imo.

     

    Once they took character grind out, simplified quests by leading you around with the map everything just snow balled into easy mode.

     

    But things like decal in asheron's call and other third party programs that made the games much easier started to take over developers just built them into the games.

    Hard is the best.  

     

    Decal saved AC.  Grinding XP was boring.  Who wants to PvE easy stuff for hours and hours over and over?  Decal leveled the field, made progress possible for people with jobs and lives, and made the PvP server about fighting for territory.  It may have hurt the white servers but what would it really matter for them?  

    Likewise macroing in DF was up to players to discover and it was not easy.  I maxed my character in a few weeks a couple years back macroing on others in the ocean using complex programs and macroing spells on glitchable mobs.  Thats the nature of a PvP game and one as glitchy as DF.  It wasnt the macroing as much as it was the bugs, lack of hack detection, and related lack of polish that made the game of poor quality.

     

    WoW is not hard.  Tab target, e-z mode pvp, gear based 100%.  It isn't even a real MMO.

     

    TES MMO right now sounds like it might be the next real MMO (and the only good one in a long time), as in a full virtual world, not a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' but both combined.  Hopefully they can get PvP right, with loot, and not have a pussified sign up system.

     

     

    Also without programs like decal (AC was one of the few games not to have the economy taken over by asian labor - i'd be interested to hear another - UO maybe? don't think it lasted long enough to count)   it will just be farmers instead.  At least bottable games give the power to the players.  One of the best things about DF was that it wasnt possible to bot to progress/make money once you were max skilled (which never took too long, botting or not)  and it was hard for unskilled labor to make good money also.

  • JuhdoJuhdo indianapolis, INPosts: 5Member

    Give me corpse runs and de-leveling from death penalties. Questing without a exclaimation point hovering over a head and the odd hell level thrown in the mix to make it a real grind.

    I met quite a few great people by having to rely on them to help me reclaim a body from a dangerous area because I was naked...was it frustrating sometimes, yes but it did add a level of caution when exploring a new area. As well as quite a few heart pounding moments when trying to escape a bad situation. It also added a true penalty for my mistakes other than having to shell out a few pieces of gold for a death.

    Quests were as much about thinking as about killing, wasn't just go there and get me this item or kill a few of those goblins minding their own business...I used to kill those same goblins because I hated goblins.

    I'm tired of getting to end game in a month.

    And give me a snake to fight that can kick again!

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Posted via Iphone:

    On the treadmill here as I can't do weights and text. :D

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

    Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

    Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

     

    Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

    I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

    Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

    Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

     

     

    Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

    Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

    So I kinda don't understand your reply.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

    Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

    What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

    No thanks; while I might be accepting of your general premise, it's plenty difficult enough to discuss 'challege' without the voluntary posing.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

    That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

    It also sounds tiresome.

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

    That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

    It also sounds tiresome.

    Trust me on this, most of the people screaming fanatically for "more challenge" really don't want it. It's their way of thumping their chests all cavemanlike. It's the nerd's version of a group of car lovers lamenting 1960s and 70s muscle cars.

  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Akron, OHPosts: 283Member
    I never really thought of any mmo as "hard," but hey I guess that's just me.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

    Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

    Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

     

    Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

    I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

    Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

    Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

     

     

    Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

    Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

    So I kinda don't understand your reply.

    sorry i misread your post. i thought you were saying the opposite.

    But my point is that the trend is clear. Modern versions of those games all have a marker to tell you where to go and they all a) sell well, and b) critically acclaimed. No one is suggesting we should go back to where we need to blindly search stuff for hours.

     

     

     

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

    Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

    Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

     

    Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

    I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

    Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

    Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

     

     

    Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

    Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

    So I kinda don't understand your reply.

    sorry i misread your post. i thought you were saying the opposite.

    But my point is that the trend is clear. Modern versions of those games all have a marker to tell you where to go and they all a) sell well, and b) critically acclaimed. No one is suggesting we should go back to where we need to blindly search stuff for hours.

     

     

     

     no reason why you cant have both or multiple system for that matter. Does every quest really need a neon sign over the head of the player? no. Should some of them? sure why not.

    i would have a blend quests as follows:

    easy: neon signs everywhere. everything handed to you.

    hard: you have to pick out the words from the quest and question of the questgiver to get the continuation.

    there should be some reason to read the text.

    image

     

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member
    Originally posted by Simphanatic
    Originally posted by aphydork

    Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

    That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

    It also sounds tiresome.

    Trust me on this, most of the people screaming fanatically for "more challenge" really don't want it. It's their way of thumping their chests all cavemanlike. It's the nerd's version of a group of car lovers lamenting 1960s and 70s muscle cars.

    Disagree. I personally play all my single player games on high difficulty settings, and most of my gaming friends do so. It's got nothing to do with showing off anything but with plain fun, this simple. Believe it or not, for many of us, when it's easy it's boring.

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